Phosphates and Borax

[stevet]

Having seen firsthand, myself, what lots of you are saying about the lack of phosphates in dishwasher detergents now, I just happened to pick up a box of Borax in Publix a few minutes ago and it said that adding 1/4 cup of Borax to your dishwasher(on the bottom of the tub) will help get the detergent do its job better by reducing the harmful effects of hard water and minerals in the water.

Could this be an alternative to using STTP? Has anyone tried this?
I just installed my long stored KUDP02IRWH2 in place of my KDS-21M which was doing a lousy job of cleaning as of late and I just wanted to have my wife get used to the new machine and how it performs before adding any chemistry lessons to the mix.

Would appreciate your comments and views on this option(the borax and even the DW)!

 

[polkanut]

Steve,

I use borax in our dishwasher and must say it does a good job as an alternative to STPP. I have some Melalueca(sp?) dw detergent that is non-phosphate, and dishes come out just as clean with borax added as they would when I use phosphated detergent. Try it, and let us know what you think. Helps deodorize the machine too.

 

[passatdoc]

I live in a hard water area and Borax certainly helps the soap rinse out of the clothes in a FL washer. Stands to reason it would help in a DW too. My Bosch DW cleans very nicely with Finish 3-in-1 Powerball tabs----not sure if my stash is with or without phosphates, I can't find any info on the package. If my supply is still phosphated and eventually cleaning power goes down with use of phosphate-free soap in the future, would definitely consider using it in a DW since it helps in a FL.

One question though: if you add it to the bottom of the DW, wouldn't it get flushed out after the first rinse? And no longer be in the DW when the soap is released? In a FL washer, without a prewash cycle, my Borax is present in the wash water along with the detergent. But in many DW's, the first rinse is flushed away while the soap in the dispenser has not yet been released. I suppose you could throw an extra tab of Finish in the bottom of the tub as a "prewash" (my Bosch has a dispenser but no prewash section for extra soap). Or add a small amount of powdered detergent with the Borax.

In my Bosch DW, a Finish tab doesn't occupy all of the space in the dispenser and there would be room to top it off with some Borax, but it wouldn't hold 1/4 cup of powder with the tablet already in place.

 

[retropia]

I think Borax works fine as a phosphate substitute in dishwashers, based on my experiments with it. My only concern is what Jim mentioned, does your main detergent dispenser have room for both 1/4 cup of Borax plus the regular amount of dishwasher detergent you would normally use? Otherwise, you would have to hang around the dishwasher while it was running, and add 1/4 cup Borax while it is filling for the main wash. The prewash is no problem; you can just pour the 1/4 cup Borax on the floor of the dishwasher before you start it.

The advantage of using a product like STPP is that it takes less. Anywhere from 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon seems to do the trick (based on what others here have said), which should fit in the main wash dispenser along with your detergent.

-Doug

 

[passatdoc]

I will check out the volume of the detergent dispenser tonight, using a measured amount of water.

@retropia: I went to summer camp with James (Time Tunnel) Darren's son, Jim Moret. He went on to become a journalist, an attorney, and he works as a political reporter for CNN. When they have presidential debates and then interview an audience of people who saw the debate, Jim is often the moderator.

 

[maytagbear]

I still have quite a stash of detergent with

phosphate, but it might be worth a try to do a ONE TIME 50/50 mix with the "unleaded" detergent and borax. Use it in a Bobload (very full, very dirty dishes.)

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[sudsmaster]

What is "STTP"?

Sodium Tri-Tiddly Phosphate?

 

[moparwash]

Borax Yes!

Been using it with the 'new' Cascade and dishes come out great in the 1993 KADW!

 

[stevet]

How much is enough?

Jerry, how much are you adding to the detergent? And does your machine have the dispenser with one or two doors on it and which one gets the borax or both?

On the box and their website, they say 1/4 cup in a dishwasher yet advise 1/2 cup for a top loading washer and 3/4 cup for front loaders due to the increased amount of clothes that get washed.

Has anyone taken any data on this experiment?

http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/pdf/TMTBooklet.pdf

 

[retropia]

That's interesting about James Darren's son being a reporter for CNN.

Jerry, with your 1993 Kitchenaid, how do you add the Borax? Do you add 1/4 to the prewash only, or have you devised a way to also add it to the main wash? Maybe your main wash dispenser cup will hold 1/4 cup Borax plus the desired amount of dishwasher detergent?

 

[moparwash]

borax recipie

I usually run the Light-China cycle and put the 1/4 cup in the other empty detergent cup..works great!

 

[lordkenmore]

One thought: if borax works well enough, it might allow one to reduce the amount of detergent. They always say detergent amount is dictated by water hardness.

Space in the detergent cup issue could be helped by using some sort of concentrated detergent. Years back, I tried something from Method that was a small cube. I don't know if that and 1/4 borax would fit into the cup...but one could certainly get more borax in than with a standard powder detergent.

 

[dustin92]

stupid idea, but maybe,

what about putting the borax in a plastic or metal jar which has a tiny hole drilled/punched in the bottom of it, and the top open so the water fills it up, then flows through very slowly through the entire cycle, and gradually dispenses the borax. (put the jar in a corner in the bottom rack, so the excess water that may be left after the cycle will just run out into the bottom of the dishwasher and be ready for the start of the next wash)

 

[passatdoc]

dispenser measurement

This is for a 2001 Bosch SHU8802 (BOL Integra series). I have a one-door dispenser. The capacity is 50 ml or roughly 1/4 cup (I filled it with water from a measuring cup to estimate the capacity).

The next time I run the DW, I will top off the compartment with Borax, on top of the Finish tab, and report back how much can be added. My guess is that the tab occupies maybe half of the compartment, so it might be possible to add 25-30 ml of Borax. I.e. about 1/8 cup, but short of the amount recommended. I suppose someone could measure 1/4 cup, top off the dispenser, and throw the rest in the bottom so that the first rinse water would have some borax in it.

Given that Borax is so inexpensive and readily available (in the USA, at any rate) I think it would be a great idea to try.

The recommended use for a FL washer will be higher because of the larger amount of water used. I believe my Bosch uses 5-8 gallons per load, depending on intensity of cycle used, way less than a FL. [this post was last edited: 10/20/2010-11:02]

 

[sudsmaster]

Since borax is toxic, I would not recommend using it to wash dishes, even if the borax solution is supposed to be rinsed away at the end of the wash (how many of you have found pockets of wash water left in upended bowls etc in your dishwashers at the end of the cycle?).

STPP would be much safer than borax for dishwashing.

Also, borax is a poor water softener, and not really an adequate substitute for STPP.

How toxic? Well, chronic exposure can cause liver cancer. Acute exposure can be dangerous even in relatively low amounts, especially to infants.

Additionally, borax contains boron, which can poison soils and in sufficient concentration make growing various plants difficult if not impossible.

For washing clothes, borax is probably safe enough.

 

[moparwash]

From the Borax Box

Dishwasher•Boost the cleaning power of your dishwashing detergent by removing hard water minerals and residues from the wash water.
•Add 1/4 cup 20 Mule Team® Borax in the bottom of the dishwasher to reduce spots and film from dishes and glasses

 

[polkanut]

I've begun adding it to the dw while using phosphated detergent as well, and I swear my dishes have never been cleaner. Of course using the hi-temp scour option doesn't hurt either. Borax must be safe to use in either laundry or dishwashing applications otherwise the government would have stuck it's nose in a long time ago. I'm a 4th generation borax user, and swear by the stuff.

 

[sudsmaster]

From the MSDS for Borax:

Sodium Borate: Sodium borate and boric acid interfere with sperm production, damage the testes and interfere with
male fertility when given to animals by mouth at high doses. Boric acid produces developmental effects, including
reduced body weight, malformations and death, in the offspring of pregnant animals given boric acid by mouth.

In other words, it's not completely safe.

I notice that dishwasher usage is not recommended on the boxes of 20 Mule Team Borax that I have. It is recommended on their web site, but only to be put into the bottom of the dishwasher, where it reasonably could be expected to be washed away by the time the cycle is finished. But also when it can least be expected to be most effective in washing. On the boxes I have, it is recommended for cleaning pots and pans, with the advice to rinse completely.

I would not use borax my dishwasher. For one thing, there is no need. The Bosch gets dishes and pans very clean with a regular phosphated detergent like Cascade. No spotting or mineral buildup in the washer as well. And there have been too many instances of wash water collecting in upended bowls and the bottoms of cups for me to be confident that all of the borax would be gone by the end of the cycle.

I have used it with confidence in my washer from time to time, but only when there is an odor problem with a particular load (which isn't very often).

 

[passatdoc]

I've noticed that detergent rinses out more thoroughly when borax is used, as evidenced by fewer or no suds left on the FL door or gasket seal crevice. I live in a hard water area and do not have a water softener. I add 1/4 cup borax to the powdered HE detergent (Tide or Gain) in the wash dispenser. My Frigidaire 2140 has no prewash; you can run a Soak cycle, but then you have to restart the machine manually and add more detergent. Works as well as a prewash but probably less water/energy efficient. However, this was "high tech" for c. 2004 when the model was introduced. As a result, borax added to the detergent dispenser is part of the wash cycle along with the HE detergent.