Another "Green" Rip Off

[westyslantfront]

I am attaching an article about the new all electric car, the
Nissan Leaf. Please read to see about the monthly costs to lease the battery as well as having to install a special place in your home to recharge the car.

Nissan Starts Taking Orders for All-Electric Leaf Car
By DAVID SCHEPP Posted 12:44 PM 04/20/10 Energy, Company News, Technology, Autos
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Nissan Starts Taking Orders for All-Electric Leaf Car
With the success of Toyota Motor's (TM) Prius hybrid, automakers have learned that there's a strong appetite among American consumers for vehicles that don't run solely on gasoline. Nissan Motors (NSANY) is looking to broaden U.S. drivers' choices by offering yet another alternative, its all-electric Leaf compact sedan.

Some 115,000 people have signed up at the NissanUSA website to get more information about the car, which goes on sale beginning in December, Nissan said. And those folks (as well as any who register at the site by the end of Tuesday) can be among the first owners of the Leaf by placing a reservation for the zero-emissions vehicle.

Registered users wishing to reserve a Leaf must pay a $99 placeholder fee, which is fully refundable, Nissan said. Reservations will open to the general public May 15.

Early interest in car has been encouraging, said Brian Carolin, senior vice president for sales and marketing at Nissan's North American sales unit. "Consumers are pledging broad support for the first affordable electric vehicle for the mass market."

Of course, affordable is a relative term. The car's $32,780 sticker price can be reduced by taking advantage of a $7,500 federal tax credit for electric vehicles. Additionally, several states also offer tax rebates that can further reduce the cost, including California and Georgia, which offer $5,000 incentives. Another bonus: In California, drivers of zero-emission vehicles may use carpool lanes without carrying additional passengers.

Nissan says its lease prices for the Leaf will begin at $349 a month. Initially, in the U.S., the cars will be sold only in Oregon, California, Washington, Arizona and Tennessee, with wider availability next year.

But the Leaf is no bargain, says auto industry analyst Arthur Wheaton of Cornell University. The vehicle's biggest downside is that buyers must lease the battery. "So, you may not be using gasoline, but you will have a separate lease for the batteries," Wheaton says. Consumers will also incur considerable recharging expenses and will have to purchase a unique home recharger that requires professional installation.

"It's an image car," Wheaton says. "In terms of practicality for most people, it's way too expensive for what you're getting."

Beyond whether the Leaf is a good buy, it remains to be seen if Nissan can meet demand. The automaker only has the capacity to build 50,000 vehicles annually at its Leaf plant in Japan. And U.S. consumers alone have already expressed interest in more than two years worth of cars.
Tagged: Electric car, emissions, fuel economy, leaf, nissan

See full article from DailyFinance: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/c...tric-leaf-car/19446739/?icid=sphere_copyright

 

[toggleswitch]

Wait until this non-sense catches on. The electrical grid in the entire country will have to fortifeid and PRONTO!

 

[polkanut]

Can you say nuclear power? It just may happen.

 

[toggleswitch]

so in the long-run is that green at all?

NOT!

Instead of burning the gasoline in the vehicle, it will instead be refined into fuel-oil and burnt at the power generating staition to generate electricity

HOW GREEN!

NOT!

 

[westyslantfront]

Hi Steve. You figured it out. To produce the electric for these cars, you still have to burn coal or oil.
I wonder when people will get wise to this hipe.

Ross

 

[alr2903]

If for nothing else the "Leaf" would be a great first car for, for folks with teenagers, they will not get to far from home. I would think it would eleminate a lot of auto theft. For city people i think it would work out quite well, as a second car for local runs. One question is there air conditioning and heat, and how much would using them decrease your mileage/battery charge time? alr2903

 

[westyslantfront]

Another expense is having to hire an electrican to install a special outlet in your home to recharge the car.
And how about having to pay the monthly fee to "lease" the car battery? Where is the savings?

 

[randycmaynard]

Speaking of issues with this vehicle......

What a silly name - Leaf..... you'd think they could do better than that - what's it look like..... well, a.... LEAF!....LOL!

 

[toggleswitch]

They are trying to give an image of nature and green and renewal, regeneration.

Maybe it should be "The Fig-leaf" meaning once you pay for it (the car and all the other costs assocaited with it..) you won't be able to buy clothing!

 

[hunter]

actually...

I cannot speak for other countries, but here in the US the vast majority of electricity comes from coal and gas.

About 25 % is from nuclear power.

Almost NOTHING is from oil.

Some is from hydro.

You know my favorite car is my full size pickup. However, for driving back and forth to work I have a small toyota Yaris -- it is NOT hybrid. It gets 40mpg. (miles per US gallon). It was CHEAP at 13,000 NEW. What's not to like?

Really, most 'green' is just a marketing ploy from what I can see. As an engineer, 'efficient' is usually 'cheap' and 'green' because 'efficient' implies good use of resources.

Hunter

 

[tolivac]

Sounds like a Hybrid car is a better deal-No "Battery" lease there-and the batteries last the life of the car.

 

[wringer_clean]

Amazing!!
A supposedly energy efficient car that's not affordable to the people who really need lower cost transportation .... the masses.
Sounds like this is more of a toy for affluent folks to talk about at social gatherings.
The manufacturers just don't seem to want to do what's right.
Very frustrating!!

 

[tomturbomatic]

What I think we need to remember is that this is new technology and all new technology is costly at first, but more efficient ways evolve. Many drivers are opting to buy this model to support manufacturing of cars without a need or with a reduced need for gasoline to encourage innovation in the industry. It is through production that better ways and better products will be found. Our use of oil puts money in the hands of those who want us dead. If we can develop a way to use energy resources we have, it will keep money within our economy instead of sending it out of the country.

As for the load on the electric grid, the vast majority of these cars will be charged during off-peak hours when there is excess generating capacity. I remember staying at a motel very near the Muscle Shoals Dam and hydroelectric power plant one summer night. We were in the pool in the evening and as it grew later, we noticed these periodic fraction-of-a-second blips in the power through the lights around the pool. It was explained as the result of the stepping back of the amount of power being generated as the demand fell and being so near the source of the power, it was noticed more. I do not know for sure if that was what was happening, but demand does drop through the night, probably not as much as it once did.

In the 1920s, as Long Island was built up, if you wished to throw a nighttime party with electric lights in your estate's garden, you had to notify the Long Island Lighting Company so that they would not cut back their generating capacity as steeply or as early in the evening.

 

[earthling177]

Well, there are many things to consider here.

First off, not all electricity is generated by burning fuel. Lots of places (including entire countries) have most of their electric energy generated by hydro, for example. I really doubt that those cars will be sold only in US, they are probably being developed to be sold all over the planet, even if they've been introduced here first.

Second, we need to really get away of this knee-jerk mentality that "electric is bad, m'kay!?!" -- it's old and wrong, and the more time passes, the wronger it gets. That very idea is what has kept us from newer and better technology when it comes to anything energy, and when things don't improve, we're held hostage to the people who sell us oil. Please consider that the best car engine is still barely 30% efficient, the rest is lost to heat and stuff we can't use -- that has not changed in nearly a century due to the mindset we've been enslaved by. Now consider that there are other ways to burn fuel and produce electricity that are more efficient than 30% (for example, turbo-fan engines, which are what we're used to in commercial jet planes, are fantastic for generating electricity) and, when one recovers the heat (so called co-generation) and sell it as steam or hot water, the efficiency is even higher. There was no good earthly reason why that wasn't done more often in US other than "energy was cheap" so they discarded all the heat in the atmosphere. And now that they do have more efficient plants and may be setting up to recover and sell most of the heat, there's no really good reason to lower the cost of electricity if most of the population still has the mindset that "it's better to burn fuel locally than in a power plant". Well, you see, there are actually very good reasons. You can burn fuel more efficiently at the power plant than in a badly maintained generator in your home. You can force the power plant to use more aggressive remediation against pollution (most home heating equipment just discards combustion by-products in the air and, as a matter of fact, homes are the major source of pollution in certain areas because of it). Those are just to start.

And third, this is not a new idea. I mean, maybe they got more efficient batteries. But from that description, it's exactly the same thing that GM was offering in the 90's. The "expensive" outlet was nothing more complicated than a dryer outlet, the plug was different just to be easier to use and so it wouldn't rip out the wires if you drove out and forgot to disconnect the cord. People also couldn't buy the GM car and were forced to lease it because it was too new and the government didn't want people to get stuck with them. Then, as the lease ended, they had to bring a sheriff to get the cars back, most people didn't want to return them. They said that despite the fact that you couldn't drive too far for lack of infrastructure, the cars were nice, quiet and accelerated and braked like nothing else. It might in fact be the ideal car for commuting, particularly if they go against the mindset of driving the largest car you can and get sold as compact cars.

Maybe they won't be the best car for everything or the only car you can have. Then again, since then was that a new idea? I know plenty of people that have a sports car for nice weather and a beater car for when it rains, snows etc. I know I can't live like that 'cuz I'm not rich, but I know some of you are and wouldn't it suck to badmouth this car right now when in a couple of years they might be the envy of the neighborhood and you'd have to choose to either not have one or be called a hypocrite? ;-)

I say bring them on and let the market decide. If they really suck, oh well, we tried something new. If they are good, even better. Less than 10 years ago people said the nastiest things against hybrid cars and that it would suck and no one would want to have one and now lots and lots of people like them. I know they are not for me, but I have plenty of friends that got their hybrids and love them and I'm glad I wasn't a voice against the innovation. YMMV.

Cheers all,
-- Paulo.

 

[tolivac]

The electric car may not be so bad-it is good for city folks.Remember electricity "generation" is conversion of energy-from one form to electricity.We still need out "thermal" conversion-so many sources of fuel.and Nuclear energy as well.Falling water-hydro-is cleanest of all.Just gravity.All of these conversions have their problems-but better to live with them and work around them than do without-and still depend on the Otto Cycle engine.Lots of folks have 220V outlets in their garages-not for recharging their cars-but to run large power tools they may have-such as radial arm saws,table saws,or even planers.The outlet can then do double duty to charge the car when the tools aren't in use.I know of one neighbor out here who has TWO 220V outlets in his garage-15A one for his table saw and a 60A one for his planer.
I have a hybrid car and am very happy with it-at this point will stay with hybrids.Not just for gas mileage-but just like how they perform.

 

[sudsmaster]

Let the Urban Myths begin

The claim that Nissan will require customers to shell out $33,000 for the car and then lease the batteries for an additional monthly cost?

Not true!

"Nissan announced on March 30, 2010 that the release price in the U.S. will be USD32,780 before any applicable tax incentives.[6] Nissan will sell or lease the Leaf only with batteries included, forgoing the initial idea of leasing batteries to reduce the price of the car. With the USD7,500 electric vehicle federal tax credit established by the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009, the net price will drop to USD25,280 for eligible customers.[6][26] The federal tax credit shrinks by automaker after it has sold at least 200,000 vehicles in the U.S. and then it phases out over a year.[26]

Other state and local incentives are available and may further decrease the cost. California has a USD5,000 statewide rebate, there is a USD5,000 tax credit in Georgia, and a USD1,500 tax credit in Oregon.[28][29] Nissan will also have an option to lease the Leaf for USD349 a month for three years (SL trim), with an initial payment of USD1,999.[26][28][29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Furthermore, please note that in states like California, a combined federal-state tax credit of $12,500 will drop the cost of the leaf to about $22,000.

Also, in sunshine states like California or Arizona, a consumer could install solar or wind power generation equipment at his residence, and use that energy to recharge the car's batteries. There are further state incentives in California that heavily subsidize (up to 1/2) the cost of such a solar installation.

Finally, most modern homes and many older homes already have 220 volt single phase outlets in their garages for such things as electric clothes dryers. It's estimated that at 220 volts the Leaf will recharge fully in eight hours. At 110 volts, it would take 16 hours. Almost but not quite enough for the expected daytime commute, unless a charging outlet is available at one's workplace.

At 220 volts, one could still dry laundry in the evening in the dryer and then plug in the Leaf for an overnight charge.

In any case the Leaf will not be available in the USA until December 2010, in limited markets, and won't be available for full USA rollout until late 2011-2012.

I'm seriously considering reserving one...