Calling D/W detergent experts....

[nickuk]

......which I am most certainly NOT!

Question.....how do the all in one tablets actually work? How does the rinse aid component go into the final rinse (when the whole thing is flung in to the main wash water) and how does the salt `component' actually regenerate the water softener / protect the heating element from lime scale?

Here in the UK most dishwasher detergent bought by consumers is now `all in one' tablet form, especially the ones with a dissolvable skin (they are handy, unwrapping tablets now seems such a faff and SO ten years ago ;-) Although other types of detergents are available, they have now become `bottom of the shelf' products if you know what I mean.

All these years and I still keep adding salt and rinse aid, though now I also use these combination tablets maybe I should give them up? Or perhaps still use salt but on the lowest setting?

For years now I have felt that Rinse Aid is a waste of money anyway, things just always seem so damn wet compared to 20 years ago.

This post, if it serves no other purpose, has reminded me that I am getting old!!

Thanks. Any answers to my questions gratefully received. Especially how the rinse aid component actually works .

 

[rolls_rapide]

Multi-function tablets

Salt Component:
This is not salt. It is a chelating compound which traps the hard water ions in the detergent solution, in the wash tub i.e. like phosphates, or phosphonates. The machine's water softener will not be regenerated - "salt function" / "salt component" / "salt action" are complete misnomers. The heater will be okay if the water is not too hard.

Detergent Component:
Usually tablets have a full dose, suitable for heavily soiled dishware in a full-size machine. Thus overdosing can be problematic for smaller machines and/or small loads (overfoaming, sudslock).

Rinse Aid Component:
Apparently (according to Reckitt Benckiser years ago) the older pearl-white waxy Finish "Powerball" rinseaid component, only dissolved when the pH of the water was sufficiently low - i.e no alkaline detergent present, and the final rinse water was sufficiently warm. I presume some version of this technology is encapsulated into the modern Quantum packs. The problem is, the rinse-aid function is limited by the amount they can fit into a tablet.

Bear in mind too, other components are added for glass protection (zinc acetate); machine protection (benzotriazole); etc.

Best practice is to use separate salt, detergent and rinse-aid. This way, the machine can control which components get injected at the right time.

 

[nickuk]

Multifunction tablets

Thank you for this information which is very useful. I now understand how the salt component is supposed to function. I live in the south east and our water is hard, so I guess I should keep adding some salt to protect the heater.

I remember those white Finish balls from several years ago. I tested those and they did, in fact, work. Upon opening the dishwasher just before the final rinse there it was, sitting at the bottom ready to work. I've recently had a bag of Finish `all in 1', though, and these have the red balls. These have long dissolved before the final rinse - indeed, there is nothing at all which would suggest to me that these have a rinse aid function. Happy to be corrected, though!

Currently have Fairy Platinum. Now these are very pretty tablets! 3 swirls of different liquids packaged above tightly packed powder. I will test these to see if any of the components are left for the final rinse and feed back.

Going off topic slightly, it would be great if the next generation of LAUNDRY pods contain a bio powder with oxy bleach and a bio liquid. What a convenient, excellent performer that would be . I only think they haven't released them yet as they must be the next big thing?! However, they would still be expensive, wedge in the door seal and over suds I guess.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[grwasher_expert]

Laundry multifunction pods

Actually, persil has launched a form of dual pods with bio powder and bio liquid ,but I think that this powder doesn't contain any bleach.They could easily add bleach into the powder and I wonder why didn't they already add it.Otherwise the powder phase does't make any functional difference, it would be exactly the same with the liquid.

 

[nickuk]

no bleach

You are quite correct, GR washer-expert, that these Persil capsules don't contain oxy bleach in the powder component according to the ingredients list.

But yes - something like this is surely possible and the next logical advancement in laundry detergent. Now if it was up to me, I would also

- enable these to be dispersed in the DRAWER. This way you could prewash if needed (add one capsule to each section of drawer) and it would avoid them getting caught in the door seal. If not, provide them with a small close-able plastic dispenser ball.

- make each one HALF size, so one can use just one for a smaller load, one and a half if needed...... a little more control on the dosing. This would make them more cost effective, easier on the environment and on the machine in terms of over sudsing.

 

[nickuk]

Back on track

Current formulation Finish and Fairy `all in 1' detergents dissolve completely in the wash water based on tests I've carried today - i.e no rinse aid component remains intact for the final rinse.

Surely the manufacturers couldn't get away with completely miss-selling these products and claiming they contain rinse aid when, in fact they do not?

 

[grwasher_expert]

Capsules in drawer

The main reason that detergents in capsule form can't be added in the detergent drawer is that the outer plastic-like wrapping needs to be in prolonged contact with water in order to dissolve completely.When it is thrown directly into the drum,it comes to direct contact with water during the whole main wash phase.But if it is put in the drawer,the capsule is going to be showered with water for a few seconds at the start of the wash and that's all.The wrapping won't have the time to dissolve completele. The liquid may be able to be released, but the undissolved wrapping will gum up and create a sticky and messy goo that will remain stuck in the drawer.Only powder tablets can dissolve completely in the drawer, because the don't have that gelatinous wrapping.They contain cellulose, so they will immediately disintegrate to powder once they come in contact with water.

 

[launderess]

All TOL at least

Automatic dishwasher detergents have contained rinse agents for decades now. Cascade called it "sheeting action" that was meant to prevent spots. However this may or may not be enough to eliminate rinse agents other use; to speed up drying and or prevent any remaining food particles from remaining on dishes after final rinse.

As for the "All in One" tabs have used the Electrasol/Finish versions and yes, they do clean very well. However the things tended to create froth, lots of froth. One got around this by usually only using one half tablet for all but the most full and dirty loads.

If one wishes one can also pop out the red ball rinse aid bit (a small paring knife end works well, *LOL*), and then add it to final rinse or leave it out all together.

Have a feeling one would still need salt in most situations unless the product explicitly states it is meant to replace.

Two main problems one has with these tablets. As with other such offerings they force you to use a "one size fits all" dosage. Since many already over dose on DW detergent cannot see how this can be a good thing.

Next besides the frothing issue these tablets won't last forever before becoming rock hard.

Purchased a job lot of Electrasol tablets on a very good offer. Before could get through them all the things started turning into hockey pucks. Whereas one could easily break the things apart when new, finally had to resort to whacking the packet with a mallet, then measuring out dosage.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Red Powerball

The All-in-One tablets have the red powerball. This powerball is a hard, chalky concoction (it reminds me of those hard Swizzels sweets - "Love Hearts", etc).

In this incarnation, it is apparently, a fast-acting detergent component which dissolves in cold water.

The current Quantum powerball is a red gel - but I'm not sure of its function.

There was an older Quantum with a white powerball. This was a white powder. I presumed that to be the bleaching component. A similar white powder pack was sandwiched within the columns of the Finish "Quantumatic" automatic carousel dispenser.

 

[grwasher_expert]

Quantum

Finish quantum, when it was first launched in 2007(still Calgonit in Greece and some other EU countries),contained one chamber of light blue powder(detergent),one chamber of blue gel(rinse aid) and the powerball sector had a fine white powder(bleach).The revamped version of 2009(when it became Finish worldwidely) which continues to be sold until today contains white detergent powder in the first chamber, blue bleach+pre-treating agents powder in the second(where the blue rinse aid gel used to be) and the rinse aid gel became red and has been moved to the powerball,which previously hosted the white bleach powder.