Console stereos: 1958-84

[phillymatt53]

Matt that's probably why dad got a Dual. It had a wooden base and was a single play automatic. My first cartridge on my B.I.C. 940 was a Sure V15 elliptical. I sold the BIC and got my Technics SL 220 with a Pickering V 4 II hyper elliptical. Still have both. I've taken a liking to my newest Ortofon 2M blue.

The BIC record changers are notorious for the original grease turning to hardend glue.
Also, certain plastic mechanism parts are prone to cracking due to the solidified grease causing the mech to bind and stress the plastic parts.
I used to have a 960 for a few years, but re-lubed it and sold it at the shop because it seemed flimsy the way it was built.

I'd say sell it, and move on.

 

[vacerator]

I got a new Technics SL 1500-C 2 years ago. I have an Audio Technica ML 95 microline on it. Excellent detail, but it doesn't like all records. I'd have gotten the Ortofon 2M bronze, it wasn't out yet. I'd also consider their Concorde music nude eliptical or bronze which has their classic integral finger style headshell.

 

[phillymatt53]

I got a new Technics SL 1500-C 2 years ago. I have an Audio Technica ML 95 microline on it. Excellent detail, but it doesn't like all records. I'd have gotten the Ortofon 2M bronze, it wasn't out yet. I'd also consider their Concorde music nude eliptical or bronze which has their classic integral finger style headshell.

Those fancy cartridges with their fancy stylus shapes are just like some fancy cars - marketing hype to make them sell.
Yet, people buy into that hype, and it's a fact that many times their brains are then convinced that "the sound" is improved.
Go look up this phenomena, it's been proven.
I've even tested and used it on people, and it's true. - keep reading.

My main turntable, a Linear-tracking machine, has an Audio Technica AT3472SE
(Special Elliptical) 2x7 stylus that tracks at 1.5 grams.
I'm happy with it, it flawlessly tracks anything I can throw at it.

OK, here's a case - a "blind test" - I have two amps selectable in my main system.
The Technics stereo receiver, AND a custom Tube amp.
They're instantly switchable via a heavy duty toggle switch on the back of the cabinet to my Advent Maestro speakers, and both are calibrated perfectly in equal loudness/volume settings.
I can use the tube amp, which takes its source input from the preamp output of the Technics.

Now, I have two younger friends who are dedicated "High End" audiophiles that came over to compare the sound from both amps.
They claim they can determine tiny nuances or differences in the sound.
These types of people are known as having "Golden Ears".

So, I put on a CD of some nice music, with vocals, for them.
Then I played some records too.
First, I tell them It's going to play from the Technics, and when I throw the switch, the music will come from the already warmed-up Tube amp.
And which one sounds better to them.....................
I threw the toggle switch several times during the test, the toggle switch makes a noticeable mechanical "Click"
This went on for about a half-hour

They one settled on the Technics as being the better-sounding amp.
The other thought the Tube amp was better.

Here's the kicker!.......the Tube amp was the ONLY one they heard!
Because I had another heavy duty toggle switch temprarily mounted on the back of the cabinet that was not connected to anything, the click it makes fooled these "experts".
WELL!.......So much for those "Golden Ears"!

 

[rinso]

Jesus! - in all the decades of servicing countless record changers, I never had a 1006 in the shop.
That's just NUTS!

Yes, it measures the record size when the tone arm scans backwards on the record, and the right-hand mini wheel drops off the edge.

 

[rinso]

For single-play professional turntables, I prefer linear tracking tonearms. Shopping around for a new one as I post this. Any suggestions?

 

[vacerator]

Thankfully my ears are more discriminating and I can tell the difference between a bonded, nude shank elliptical, micro line and a Shibata stylus. Who cares what a maker calls something. They all have marketing trademarks.
If you're not hearing a difference Matt, either the record or the system sucks. So just tape a straight pin to the side of the head shell.
Moving coil cartridges can also offer better sound with the right preamps and systems. p.s, my Koss reissue Pro 44a headphones are nothing special.

 

[phillymatt53]

For single-play professional turntables, I prefer linear tracking tonearms. Shopping around for a new one as I post this. Any suggestions?

I'm really not keen on anything of "new" manufacturing.
And besides, being retired for 9 years, haven't handled anything since the shop closed.
However, I'd stick with something vintage around 1980s era.
Technics, Kenwood, Sony, among others made some decent linear-trackers.
Depends on how they've been treated over the years.

 

[phillymatt53]

Thankfully my ears are more discriminating and I can tell the difference between a bonded, nude shank elliptical, micro line and a Shibata stylus. Who cares what a maker calls something. They all have marketing trademarks.
If you're not hearing a difference Matt, either the record or the system sucks. So just tape a straight pin to the side of the head shell.
Moving coil cartridges can also offer better sound with the right preamps and systems. p.s, my Koss reissue Pro 44a headphones are nothing special.

Oh, trust me, I can hear differences, up to a point, after that it's really diminishing returns.
If I want to get obsessive about something, my test equipment is my other set of "ears"

Some of the "snobs" on the audio websites have even admitted that they're impressed by a cheap conical stylus cartridge. (AT3600).

 

[kenwashesmonday]

Because I play all sorts of records in varying condition, including styrene 45s, I downgraded the stylus in my Shure M95 cartridge from hyper-elliptical to elliptical. It sounds quite good to my old ears.

 

[vacerator]

Even the new Technics SL 1200 G, 1300g, are well designed and built. Delta sigma motors with zero hum and extremely low wow and flutter. Duals too. With a 50 year old turntable that only needed cleaning and lubricant I wanted a new one. I use a power conditioner and disconnect the main cord from the wall every night.

 

[phillymatt53]

Even the new Technics SL 1200 G, 1300g, are well designed and built. Delta sigma motors with zero hum and extremely low wow and flutter. Duals too. With a 50 year old turntable that only needed cleaning and lubricant I wanted a new one. I use a power conditioner and disconnect the main cord from the wall every night.

Technics ALWAYS had low wow-flutter in their better turntables, particularly in their Direct Drive machines.
And as listed in their literature, that was a mere 0.025%, utterly invisible to the human ear.
At the shop, we used a Leader LFM136 meter to check equipment for any W&F issues.
And I confirmed that Technics, among other good turntables, were within spec for that.
But, a well designed turntable regardless of price, can also have a low figure.
My 1987 linear-tracker DD machine showed a 0.03 W&F reading, and it wasn't an expensive model.
Actually, a 0.12 W&F reading is not even objectionable or noticeable for a turntable, and provides a pleasent listening experience from records.
......Unless a person is obsessed with specifications.

 

[vacerator]

Matt, on certain vinyl, I can tell a slight difference in speed regulation between my SL 220 belt drive spec. .045 and my new direct drive.

 

[pstehle]

Those fancy cartridges with their fancy stylus shapes are just like some fancy cars - marketing hype to make them sell.
Yet, people buy into that hype, and it's a fact that many times their brains are then convinced that "the sound" is improved.
Go look up this phenomena, it's been proven.
I've even tested and used it on people, and it's true. - keep reading.

My main turntable, a Linear-tracking machine, has an Audio Technica AT3472SE
(Special Elliptical) 2x7 stylus that tracks at 1.5 grams.
I'm happy with it, it flawlessly tracks anything I can throw at it.

OK, here's a case - a "blind test" - I have two amps selectable in my main system.
The Technics stereo receiver, AND a custom Tube amp.
They're instantly switchable via a heavy duty toggle switch on the back of the cabinet to my Advent Maestro speakers, and both are calibrated perfectly in equal loudness/volume settings.
I can use the tube amp, which takes its source input from the preamp output of the Technics.

Now, I have two younger friends who are dedicated "High End" audiophiles that came over to compare the sound from both amps.
They claim they can determine tiny nuances or differences in the sound.
These types of people are known as having "Golden Ears".

So, I put on a CD of some nice music, with vocals, for them.
Then I played some records too.
First, I tell them It's going to play from the Technics, and when I throw the switch, the music will come from the already warmed-up Tube amp.
And which one sounds better to them.....................
I threw the toggle switch several times during the test, the toggle switch makes a noticeable mechanical "Click"
This went on for about a half-hour

They one settled on the Technics as being the better-sounding amp.
The other thought the Tube amp was better.

Here's the kicker!.......the Tube amp was the ONLY one they heard!
Because I had another heavy duty toggle switch temprarily mounted on the back of the cabinet that was not connected to anything, the click it makes fooled these "experts".
WELL!.......So much for those "Golden Ears"!

Otherwise known as "the Emperor's new clothes..."

 

[vacerator]

Well, I'm not one who would spend over $500 on a cart., or $2,000 on a turntable. Some spend tens of thousands. I've seen those high end audio shows. Six figure components, even cables costing thousands.

 

[vacerator]

Tube preamps and amps always sound warmer. Even hybrids. That's why so many high end makers still use them. There are modern tubes which can be treated with a process like liquid nitrogen or something to make them last longer and or enhance performance. I forget exactly, but I saw it on youtube last week from the Capitol audio show in D.C. There three videos from the Tracking angle and Analog planet. Even vacuum tubes have evolved.

 

[phillymatt53]

Otherwise known as "the Emperor's new clothes..."

In a lot of cases, it actually boils down to "perceived" improvements.
As I previously mentioned, studies and tests were done relating to "Cognitive Bias" which showed that the human brain has the potential to believe an improvement or change has taken place.

That audio test that I did with two friends proved this is true.
They actually believed that the "clicking" of the dummy switch changed which amp was in use, when in fact it did nothing but click.
So when I finally told them, and showed them the dummy switch, they became a bit agitated, and confused.
Because their brains wanted to believe of the change, and upon hearing the truth it caused a negative disruption to take place.

Oh, in a "real" actual case when the "real" switch was used, indeed a subtle "tonal" difference is perceived.
Not a lot of difference mind you, but just enough that it was obvious.

Marketing of products such as audio equipment can be deceiving, if the marketing is cleverly done to make the potential customer believe it will "improve" the quality level.
In some cases, it is true, honest, and measurable by testing equipment.
But like I said, the human brain has its own way of deciding something.
And a certain stubborn attitude at times.

 

[vacerator]

Quality level of listening enjoyment is isolation from resonance and vibration from loudspeakers, etc. Only one note may cause it, and it may only show on measuring equipment, but as a component ages, or room aspects change may become more pronounced. Thus, there is a choice in the level of quality engineering for budget and discretion.

 

[phillymatt53]

Quality level of listening enjoyment is isolation from resonance and vibration from loudspeakers, etc. Only one note may cause it, and it may only show on measuring equipment, but as a component ages, or room aspects change may become more pronounced. Thus, there is a choice in the level of quality engineering for budget and discretion.

I've no doubt about the "tier levels" of products, and their performance abilities.
But only up to a certain point.
Because as I might have mentioned, there is a certain point of "Diminishing Returns" which become just expensive outlays serving a non-productive, non needed reason, except for perhaps feeding a person's ego, or to brag about.

Marketing exec's know that, they know the weaknesses to feed the public.
And as I previously mentioned, human Cognitive Bias is one factor they use to their benefit.

 

[rinso]

Didn't Magnavox handle the resonance thingy with their sealed Styrofoam speaker enclosures? Just wondering.

 

[phillymatt53]

Didn't Magnavox handle the resonance thingy with their sealed Styrofoam speaker enclosures? Just wondering.

While Magnavox did produce some nice quality consoles, they weren't perfect.
The styrofoam box system was an interesting design, but also had its flaws.
I've heard them and wasn't impressed. - typical "console sound".
Another innovation was the "tunnel" system that they used on larger consoles.
As you might know, the Magnavox consoles had side-firing woofers, with the midrange and horn tweeters facing the front of the console.
Their higher priced consoles had remote control, more features, and the "Tunnel" woofer system.
This was literally a full width tunnel chamber that each channel's woofers were mounted in, all the way across the console's width.
It created a nice "Booming" bass enhancement, if you liked that sort of thing.

Sylvania, on the other hand, sounded substantially better as far as being neutral, and accurate, particularly in their sealed "Dome" speaker systems.
Less boomy, cleaner bass, less fatiquing to listen to.
Plus they used quality record changers like Dual and Garrard.

 

[vacerator]

Silicone isolation is best for turntable feet. Sorbathane is also great for a mat, or inside the plinth. Pointed speaker feet, and a heavy component shelf/furniture too.

 

[rinso]

While Magnavox did produce some nice quality consoles, they weren't perfect.
The styrofoam box system was an interesting design, but also had its flaws.
I've heard them and wasn't impressed. - typical "console sound".
Another innovation was the "tunnel" system that they used on larger consoles.
As you might know, the Magnavox consoles had side-firing woofers, with the midrange and horn tweeters facing the front of the console.
Their higher priced consoles had remote control, more features, and the "Tunnel" woofer system.
This was literally a full width tunnel chamber that each channel's woofers were mounted in, all the way across the console's width.
It created a nice "Booming" bass enhancement, if you liked that sort of thing.

Sylvania, on the other hand, sounded substantially better as far as being neutral, and accurate, particularly in their sealed "Dome" speaker systems.
Less boomy, cleaner bass, less fatiquing to listen to.
Plus they used quality record changers like Dual and Garrard.

Thanks for the info, I've never heard a Sylvania, but it's great that the sounded good. Here's the console that my ex-wife ended up with: I replaced the cartridge with a magnetic one, and of course with all the room inside the cabinet, it was easy to find a place for the required magnetic cartridge preamplifier. I also installed a frequency equalizer in one of the huge record slots, so it sounded great to me and it helped "crispen" the percussion response that Magnavox lost when the went to the Astro-Sonic models. I was also able to tame the boomy bass. Some people like that, but I prefer to hear the bass instruments as they naturally sound. Just my impressions, I could be wrong.

 

[kenwashesmonday]

vacerator wrote: "There are modern tubes which can be treated with a process like liquid nitrogen or something to make them last longer and or enhance performance."

Sounds like snake oil to me. A good old 12AX7 preamp tube is good for 10,000 hours.

 

[phillymatt53]

vacerator wrote: "There are modern tubes which can be treated with a process like liquid nitrogen or something to make them last longer and or enhance performance."

Sounds like snake oil to me. A good old 12AX7 preamp tube is good for 10,000 hours.

LOL!
Indeed, there's plenty of Snake Oil out there to sell to gullible people.

 

[vacerator]

The designer of the equipment didn't say why he treated the tubes. A Chicago ear bud designer was there too. He does custom ones and are single pole design drivers. A micro computer for each ear. Prices start at $4,500 and up. He did a pair form the lawyer who defended the Ferguson case in St. Louis.

 

[phillymatt53]

Silicone isolation is best for turntable feet. Sorbathane is also great for a mat, or inside the plinth. Pointed speaker feet, and a heavy component shelf/furniture too.

Silicone isolation is best for turntable feet. Sorbathane is also great for a mat, or inside the plinth. Pointed speaker feet, and a heavy component shelf/furniture too.

In most cases, the best (and free!) ways to control acoustic feedback issues with turntables is proper placement of components.
What people seem to not realize is that some of those products you mentioned are just band-aids to the problem, and as kenwashesmonday mentioned, are Snake Oil.

And so, Mike, with all due respect, some of your posts in this thread concerning turntables and audio products show me that you're prone to believing that some products are worthy, which in reality, they are not.
The old saying applies: "Don't believe everything you read on the internet".

Reading those postings of other websites like HIFI Engine, Vinyl Engine, and AudioKarma, among others, is sometimes amusing with their endless babbling about how to improve or correct an issue.
For instance, you mentioned those "pointed speaker feet", which are also used underneath turntable plinths/bases.
The claims for those "spikes" are marketing nonsense, and do nothing to correct a turntable or speaker feedback problem, but they do contribute to the seller's income from uninformed customers.
And how could they? - All they do is raise whatever they're under, perhaps giving it a "sexy Hi-Tech appearance".

You have to understand Physics, and the properties of how sound travels through the AIR, walls, and floorboards.
Indeed, sound can potentially "vibrate" anything nearby, and the closer the speakers are, along with increasing the sound intensity levels, nothing..... nothing is safe from being affected by high-level heavy bass.
Those "spikes" are metal, and putting them on a speaker isn't going to do shit to eliminate or suppress what travels though the AIR from a speaker, or eliminating vibrations from reaching the floor.
And even the "fancy" spikes with cushioning are worthless investments.

My next door neighbor's system, while being nice expensive components, is flawed by the way he insists how it is arranged.
He's another one who's been "educated" by internet babble.
Those massive Acoustic Research speakers are practically kissing both sides of that expensive "high end" component rack between them.
So even with "pads" under the Dual 701 turntable, he cannot turn the volume up past a reasonable amount, because those 12 inch woofers transmit vibrations right through the floor and air, causing feedback issues.
I've told him to seperate the speakers away from the turntable/rack, yet he refuses to listen. - I've had plenty of "stubborn" people that think they know better than me.
I've even taken over a custom-made Feedback Elimination device that I designed and built, which connects to the preamp he uses.
It supresses any subsonic audio under 27 Hz, which is the prime area where feedback is generated. - And besides, there's really nothing of subsonic value worth listening to in music, and doesn't affect the rest of the audio spectrum at all.
In addition, since that annoying sub-bass also robs power from the amplier, and causes woofer cones to flap and flex in extreme ways, that is also canceled out by my device.

He heard the amazing results, and was able to turn the volume up to window-rattling levels, without a hint of feedback, or the dangerous flapping of those woofers.
Yet, he was not interested in having me make him one!
In a way, it's good for me, since I'm not bothered by bass booming though the wall in my home.

Listen, I've not only been an experienced professional repair shop technician, I've also had education and experience in audio product design and implimentation.
And I've done audio and video installations for customers homes as well.
I know the reality's and solutions way before the internet was born, with its propaganda, influences, and nonsense.

 

[phillymatt53]

The designer of the equipment didn't say why he treated the tubes. A Chicago ear bud designer was there too. He does custom ones and are single pole design drivers. A micro computer for each ear. Prices start at $4,500 and up. He did a pair form the lawyer who defended the Ferguson case in St. Louis.

And this is what, exactly?