Hot inlet valve to be added...

[vivalalavatrice]

As I already said, I will nextly install a solar power board system on my roof.
To take the best advantage of it I would have to use them to heat the water which will be accumulated in the boiler.

Now, apart from the showers, which will have a separate plumbing, I wish to use that water for the washer and the dishwasher either, which are the biggest "hot water consumers" for us.

No problem about the DW, 1997 Whirlpool ADG 957 M, which can be hooked up to the hot water wiht the existing hot/cold inlet hose and valve. Will the dishes be rinsed with hot water too?? Better, they'll be cleaner )

The problem is for the wahser, 2001 Whirlpool AWT 8104 D: I asked to the technical support whether it were posbbile to use the existing hose and valve to do the hooking up but they asked me not.

Now, looking on the back of the washer I saw that:

- on the left,the COLD hose say "25°C MAX", so even the valve would suffer with hot water setting at 60°C...like the technical support said...BUT
- on the right, where there would be the HOT valve, there is a hole coverd with a black plastic...THE PLACE OF THE HOT INLET VALVE I assume...

My questions are the following, for who want to kindly find an answer for me:

- Would it be available a second HOT valve with the suitable hose for the washers?
- HOW DO I HAVE TO DO TO INSTALL IT? Would it be better the tecnician to do this?
- After the washer fills with hot water, does the heating element work the same during the cycle to maintain the temp? So the power to be supplied wouldn't be decreased (now the the electric absorbement for the washer is 2300W, 230V at 50Hz).

That's what. I would be very glade to know anyone replies )
Thank you very much in advance!
Good Bye
Diomede

 

[gizmo]

Hi Diomede

It is unlikely you can just fit a hotwater valve. It depends exactly on the model but I would be surprised. There is another method which will work but is not automatic...
You can buy or make up a "Y" adaptor, a hose with two inlets and one outlet. Connect one inlet to cold tap, one inlet to hot tap, the outlet to the fill connection of your machine. When you first use the washer, turn on the hot tap only for a hot fill, or turn on both taps for a warm fill. when the washer has filled and refilled if it needs to, then change the taps so only cold is turned on. That way rinses will be cold. I used to have this system and after about 15 minutes I could turn off the hot water and turn on the cold water. You don't want to change the taps after the first fill, because often the clothes absorb some water and the machine needs to add more water for the wash, you want that top up to be hot or warm too.

The heater will still come on during the wash, but as you started out with warm water the energy used will still be much less. The heater only comes on to maintain the selected temperature, the hotter the water you start with, the less energy you will use.

One thing to watch for - the water in the pipes will still be cold, you need to run some water into the sink to expel the cold water from the pipes and have hot water in the pipes before you fill the washer. Otherwise the cold water will go into your wash and by the time the hot water has come through, the washer is almost full of cold water.

It is possible that your machine can have a hot inlet valve fitted - most Whirlpool front loaders sold here in AU have hot and cold fill. Perhaps you could contact Whirlpool again, ask if that machine was available with a hot fill in any overseas markets, and what would have to be done to fit a hot fill valve to yours.

I have thought of another possible method, it is rather complicated but if you want I can try to explain it. I have an Asko which is modified to take solar water and does not use the heater at all, I'm not sure if your washer is suitable but you could try...

Chris

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Thanks Chris, thus...

I can say you that the same answer you gave me I found here... at least we knew that this problem is very common and people try to solve it like you have explained me.

Guess what, I tried to ask for the same question to some italian forums folks... WE ALL ARE WATIING ITALIAN APPLIANCES PRODUCERS TO SELL HOT-COLD WASHERS, HERE IN ITALY TOO!!!

You can't believe thatn ALL italian appliances producers (either Zanussi Electrolux than Merloni, with Ariston and Indesit brands), BUILD those type of washers, but they sell it everywhere APART OF ITALY!!!! WHAT A SHAME!

ISN'T HERE SUN ENOUGH?!?!? To heat the water to be in the washers used...

Sorry for the anger...)

So this problem I have people here have the same. Honestly I wouldn't demage the cold inlet with the "Y" adaptor, hot and cold inlet valve are different, otherwise why to have two? Plastic plate for cold and Ceramic plate for hot, that's the subsantial difference...I'll set the hot water on 60°C anyway...so "warm" water on 40°C would be mixed, and Super wahs at 90°C would be heated more.

I better would like to find a suitable hot inlet valve, as I found the pre-existing hole to fit it there! But then there would be the problem to how make the right electric/electronic plug-in.
BTW my washer is a EuroTL (h-axis)...the model is the same I have already said, mod. AWT 8104 D and the control is electronic!!!

Thanks however for the kind reply... now I wait for many others!

Diomede

 

[nickuk]

Mixed fill via `Y' piece

Chris, I speak only from UK experience but despite the great suggestion, there is a problem with the set up you suggest.

Cold water is pressurised if from the mains - most washers cold fill from a rising main. Hot water is generally not pressurised, or far less so. What would happen here if you connected the pipes as you suggested is that the cold water would simply take a direct route through the Y piece (a totally open piece of plastic inside) and gush up into the hot water pipe system , and continue to fill up the hot water tank until it overflowed - hopefully through the overflow pipe. I can't think of an alternative. I tried this out once too for some reason when I lived in London.

Diomede - sorry, so far I don't have an answer for you!

Regards

Nick

 

[brisnat81]

Another thought

Most hot and cold fill machines dont usually fill with any tap hot water unless the requested temp is over 50degC or so. Most warm washes are filled with cold, and then heated.

I know this isnt true for all machines, but most of the new ones work this way.

Is it possible for Solar to work in a non pressurised system? I would've thought that the risk of running the panels dry during a power outage would be too great.

Diomede, is your hotwater mains pressure, or does it gravity feed?

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Thanks! You find another problem!

I haven't thought to the pressure question, anyway! The whole implants have to be build yet, so thank you to have make me notice the problem of the pressure I must suggest to the technicians who will make it up!

Apart from the cold water which is pressured (we live on a hill, thus the "communicant tanks theory" is not applicable), so this part of the town have a higher main pressure than the people who live downside the hill (provided with gravity feed of the public line)...because the pressure is warranted by the a pubblic pump!

I remeber that after the application of this pump to the main water line we had problem to the inlet valve of the furnace, which explosed cause to the higher pressure!And it happens to some other of our neighbours too!

Now hot water is heated up by the instantanean furnace. The hot water pressure so is the same as the cold one...a very little bit less in truth.

I suppose we will make the new hot water system work in the same way as the cold: the tank will be place in the cellar dowstairs so to make the water arrive up to the first floor we HAVE to use a pump... conseguently there will be pressure even in the hot water plumbing!

The laundry is in the basement, the same floor as the cellare so, I wonder if ther would be too pressure to the washer in hot water line... pressure of the water in the tank and/or pressure of the pump...

Really I didn't though to this...))
I hope to engage a very good plumber!

THANKS ALL VERY MUCH!
Diomede

PS: I am still looking for that hot-water inlet valve...grrr!!!

 

[gizmo]

Diomede - It's up to you of course but I would just make up the y-hose and if the valve fails eventually, replace it. I could even send you one if you like. I used the y-hose with a Philips TL H-axis washer for over a year and had no problem at all with it. I assume it is probably a very similar machine to yours, though mine was manufactured in France not Italy. Though mine was badged as a Philips, I have seen identical machines badged as Philips-Whirlpool, Whirlpool and Ignis.
Nick - the low pressure hot water system does not cause the trouble you suggest - my system works perfectly. I have gravity feed low pressure hot water, heated by solar and a wood stove. The taps contain a non-return valve which prevents water going backwards down the hot water plumbing - the jumper valve (tap washer) is designed to allow flow only in one direction, reverse flow causes the valve to be sucked shut. At least that is how taps in AU are designed. Mixer taps such as the single lever taps do not have a non-return function, under AU plumbing codes they are required to be connected to the plumbing by a non return valve, not sure if UK has the same requirements but I reckon it would be likely. Of course the non-return valve can fail... it happened at my work, one of the jumper valves feeding the hand sink failed, this left a "loop" of pipe linking the hot water outlet and the cold supply, the water constantly circulated through the pipes from hot outlet to the inlet of the hot water tank, meaning the gas hot water never shut off, as the water cooled in the pipes as fast as the gas could heat it. The plumber couldn't find the fault, I stopped the problem by turning off the supply to the hand sink - a new washer fixed the problem.

Chris.

 

[nickuk]

`The low pressure hot water system does not cause the trouble you suggest'.

It did, as I stated, when I tried it.

Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered offering caution.

I'm very pleased that you have non return jumper valves as standard in Australia, it sounds like a much better system. We don't in the UK, and I don't know what Diomede's situation is in Italy. I guess all plumbing systems are unique, but at least now from both of our posts Diomede knows that he needs non return valves for the Y piece thing to work.

Best of luck Diomede.

 

[toggleswitch]

To go back int hsi thread quite a few panels,

Methinks non-pressurized hot water mains is a UK anomaly.
Everywhere else in the world, the hot water heater delivers pressurized hot from the tap. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Again to re-iterate, IMHO a gravity-fed hot water line, from a cistern in the soffit (water storage tank in attic) to specifically feed a non-pressurized cylinder (hot water heater) is a Brit-specific thing.

I beleive the logic is old-fashined heat exhchaning tanks were heat came forma fossil=-fuel source originally were simply fitted with an electrical element. The UK systme avoids the need to have a tank that can withstand pressure. Indeed there is no pressure-releif expasion valve needed.

[Also electrical ring-circuits, I believe, are a UK-specific thing, which is why plugs for EACH electric item to be plugged in to a power-point (outlet) are fused. The fuse makes yours (Brit ones)huge. Every flex cord and appliance is, by necessity, fused!]

http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/PressureRelief.htm

 

[brisnat81]

You quite often find

Low pressure gravity feed tanks are in Australia as well.

Not usually in the City, but in rural areas, or areas prone to power outage they're very common.

In Australia however it is unusual to find a non mains pressure electric system. All Gravity fed hotwater systems are usually gas, oil, solar or wood fired. Quite often the hot water is heated in a heat exchanger fitted into a wood burning stove in the kitchen, and the hotwater tank is located in the roof.

Electric heat exchange units are self contained, in that the heating tank, and coils are located in a large single cylinder. The tank holds the heated water not under pressure, and there is a copper heat exchanger running through it that is under pressure. The water pressure tends to be lower than a standard mains pressure storage tank.

They're not as unusual as it might sound. In australia we take low hotwater pressure as the norm, regardless of the system in place. The diameter of the hot water pipes has been shrinking year by year in comprison to the cold pipes. Purely so you dont have to waste water by bleeding excess cold off. Hot water recirculation systems are comming into vogue in new houses, as its now more important to conserve water than the fuel required to heat it.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Well, it's here like there!

Nathan, what you have described is like it works here...
We will install a wood stove too, "in series" with the solar board, so both wil go heating the water in the tank downstairs.

What Toggle calls "in the attic" we call "vaso di espansione", and it works like that: when you heat water with a fuel whcich you can't control the max temp, such sun/wood/carbon, you must ("by law" here) install that tank below the roof...better, one level above the uppest circulating heating element, to avoid the uncontrolled rising temp of the water whihc might cause explosion of the circuit!
Naturally, this law is only in Italy!!! The same circuits abroad in Europe are built with a simple pressure valve, "valvola di scarico termico"

You don't need that tank if your fuel is gas/oil/metano/electriciy.

Nick, either here we have to install non-return valves everytime you "create" a pressure higher than the main line one, every water heater have to have got well two valves, one for the cold water and one for the hot water. By regulaments at least the hot one, to avoid hot water return in the tanks/heater/circuit, the second is a safety valve generally installed by plumbers who do the job.

I found many different system finding us speaking about heating, I'll open a new thread thus, better in SuperThread, to explain how does it works here, but indeed it's suprisingly like in AU ))

Thaks very much to all!
Diomede

PS: btw guess what Whirlpool answered me? No, your washer is not allowed to be provided with a seecond valve... BUT SO WHAT IS THAT BIG PIECE OF BLACK PALSTIC IN TH HOLE IN HER BACK!!!!!!!

I still look for a second valve... "NON MI ARRENDO!"

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Yes...

Sorry Steve, I looked at your link just after wrote...
The explanation drawing is what I mean with "valvola di scarico termico" = TPR valve....

Here you can't!!!! Oh, how it is impossible here to do everything!You have to make up the circuit like so:

If your heater were provided by wood (and here in rural areas there are a lot!), or carbon (but I thinks it has been discontinued since the 20s!), you would make that water rising in the attic in a tanks, linked with the main line to maintain the righ amount of water dissolved with the steam produced by the temperature, and then let that hot water fall dow the circuit for the use you need, generally to feed the heating element, or the exchanger if you don't directly use that water.

That's a OPEN CIRCUIT, we call it "impianto a vaso aperto". It's generally used in the old circuit, in the condo central heating system...

Well, I understood I must create a new thread called "HEATING FOR YOUR CONFORT", nextly... on these screens ))

 

[gizmo]

Nick - sorry, I had not read your post carefully enough, I thought your scenario was theoretical, not something that had really happened. I apologize.
Eek, London plumbing sounds dodgy!

Nathan - here in Victoria gravity feed electric is very common - off peak electric was the most common form of hot water till the 1970s, possibly even the 80s when gas began to take over. My parents house (1958) has gravity fed off peak electric hot water, non-adjustable thermostat at 75 degrees and very low pressure, and extremely high cold water pressure, every time I stay there I can't believe how difficult it is to adjust for a comfortable shower - half a mm either way is the difference between freezing and scalding...

Diomede - the plastic blank on the back may only mean that the machine was available with hot fill in other markets, but the wiring may have been completely different and fitting a hot valve might need a different timer, for example.

I have some ideas how to help you get a hot fill (no jokes please Toggle) but you would have to do some study of your machine and get back to me - are you interested? (I tried to do this idea to my Philips TLFL but it was not compatible, but if you are lucky your machine might be different.

chris.