KitchenAid KDI-21A drain problems

[bcorey]

Hi all,

I have a KitchenAid KDI-21A that started giving me problems during the holidays. Came with our house 20 years ago, and it's been working great for years. All of a sudden last week, 2 problems showed up: every few cycles, the soap dispenser does not open, and, every few cycles (and not necessarily on the same cycle), the dishwasher doesn't drain. It either drains fully or does not drain -- and I can't hear the motor running during the drain cycle.

I thought it might be the timer given these both started happening at the same time, and the motor itself seems to work fine during the wash cycle. I happen to have a spare NOS timer I got on eBay at some point when one was available -- just for a moment like this, but it does not make a difference.

I cleaned the contacts on the bi-mitel dispenser, but didn't help. I installed a new check valve a few years ago, and double checked it -- it's good. I went down to the impeller and it turns/looks good. The brass ring on my top washer arm is worn, but that shouldn't have an impact on this.

Given the wash cycle appears to run fine, I'm hesitant to blame the motor. Given these are reversible motors, I'm not sure how they run one way and not the other?

Any ideas -- my wife is hours away from forcing me to buy a new dishwasher...

 

[combo52]

KDI 21 a draining problem

If you’re not hearing the motor run at the end of the cycle when it’s supposed to do the final drain, it’s either a bad timer, you tried that or the motor is overheating check and see if the motor is really hot to the touch toward the end of the cycle you may have a motor that’s failing.

Usually the bi metal detergent dispenser parts can be adjusted. There are no contacts to clean. I’m not sure what you did.

If the motor is going and you don’t have a spare it might be time to listen to your wife and get that new whirlpool Maytag, or KitchenAid dishwasher.

But I’m happy to try to help you fix this one if you get some more information to us.

John.

 

[bcorey]

Here are the motor run times for the light wash cycle using a camera underneath to capture the motor running.

CW means clockwise if you are underneath the motor looking up towards the ceiling:

01:32 -> 02:20, CW
04:24 -> 04:45, CW
07:23 -> 07:42, CW
10:32 -> 10:35, CW (buzzed for one second before starting)
10:44 -> 10:58, CW
15:01 -> 15:20, CW
19:02 -> 19:21, CW
23:49 -> 23:53, CCW
27:02 -> 27:06, CW
27:13 -> 27:28, CW
32:25 -> 32:41, CW

So assuming CW is wash and CCW is drain, the draining only happened one time for 4-5 seconds. I'm not sure how many times it's supposed to run, but clearly that's not good. I tried feeling the motor a few times throughout, and it was slightly warm, but not "hot".

Is there anything internal that could be preventing the motor from running such as a bad wash arm?

I did manage to find a used 21A motor on eBay: part # 242635

For the bi-metal, I meant one of the terminals where the wire connected (blue wires) was cruddy, so I cleaned it. I assume the bi-metal is adjusted by bending the metal?

 

[combo52]

Dishwasher problems

The motor needs to run in the drain direction at least 4 to 6 times during the cycle, there’s a cycle chart inside the main door panel. Compare the times on that to the actual times. It’s operating

From what you’re describing it’s got a bad timer if the motor is not reversing and running in reverse to drain the water.

To adjust the buy metal I usually just loosen the Phillips screw that holds it in and pivot it a little bit away so that it doesn’t put quite as much hold on that arm. Usually that will work. You could also try slightly bending it.

It’s also important that when the arm is released, the cup opens with a snap and it’s not binding

Let us know what you find.

John

 

[bcorey]

I suppose I'm stumped a bit, because I have two timers, one which I bought NOS, and they have the same behavior. Well the same behavior in that neither timer seems to allow the dishwasher to drain.

Have you ever seen a motor that could run in one direction and not the other? From typical electric motors I'm familiar with, bad wiring (as in wired wrong in the 1st place) could be the only thing that could cause that -- which seems unlikely. How does the motor running CCW cause the drain to open? I don't suppose the a bad washer arm could cause this?

I don't see a cycle chart on the door? I see the attached schematic.

I loosened the screw holding the bi-metal and adjusted it, and it opened on the next cycle, so thanks for the tip on that!

 

[qsd-dan]

I have never worked on a 21+ KA, but I would guess if this works anything like a washing machine motor that runs one way to agitate and the opposite direction to spin, the problem is most likely in the motor start switch/relay. The only other possibility *may* be the program switch, which do go wonky after several decades of heavy use.

 

[bcorey]

This washer was bought/installed in 1986 (I have the paperwork). I suppose I can try hardwiring the light load at the wiring and seeing what happens.

I already checked the starter relay according to the manual, and it did test out ok. I suppose I could isolate the motor going in reverse. It has 4 wires, and I know the white wire is the neutral. Does anyone know the wiring for these? I suspect black is hot, and the blue and red are to choose the motor direction. I wish I knew some of the coding used in this schematic (i.e. wiring colors).

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>BCorey:  How does the motor running CCW cause the drain to open?</blockquote> The pump has two pumping chambers with separate impellers on the single motor shaft.  The vanes on the recirculation impeller are oriented to push water through the spray arms when the motor runs in the "forward" direction.  The drain impeller likewise is designed to move water out the drain hose only when the motor turns in the "reverse" direction, effectively does nothing when the motor runs "forward."

The direction in which the motor runs is controlled by the timer, according to which contacts on the motor it sends power.

 

[bcorey]

DADoES: The direction in which the motor runs is controlled by the timer, according to which contacts on the motor it sends power.

Do you happen to know the wiring colors? Do you know what the 5T (W) and 5B (D) mean on the schematic I posted?

If I knew the right wires, I could swap them, and if it drains CCW instead of washes on each of those run cycles, that would presumably rule out the motor.

 

[combo52]

Non-draining KitchenAid dishwasher

The problem you’re describing cannot caused by the relay the relay has nothing to do with direction the motor runs this function is also not controlled by the program switch.

When you look at the wiring diagram, you’ll see that the motor has a run winding and to start windings. There’s a start winding to start in the direction of drain and there’s a start winding. It started in the direction of wash which is labeled motor on the diagram.

it’s possible if the machine periodically just sits there and doesn’t run at all when it’s supposed to be draining, you could have a bad drain start winding which is a bad motor, but it would be very unusual for it to work sometimes and not other times.

Given that you replace the timer, if you can’t figure it out, I would replace the main motor. It’s really the only other possibility.

John

 

[bcorey]

Ordered the used one -- as you said John, can't really be anything else at this point...

 

[valvashon]

I had a no/poor drain problem recently with my KDI-58 and it turned out to be a nylon nut (from when I replaced the constant rinse thing) that had fallen into the works and eventually made its way to the drain valve. The drain valve has the smallest inside diameter of anything in the drain system and that's where the nylon nut caught. it was letting enough water drain until the evening when I put a plate in with leftover rice- the rice swelled up and clogged the drain valve almost completely up. Timer was working right, motor was working right, drain valve was opening and closing- everything sounded right and electrically checked out right.
If you haven't actually pulled the drain valve out and checked for what might be a non-food obstruction it might be time to do so.
I'd share pictures but food stuck in a drain valve is gross.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 11

Hi Bruce, thanks for sharing your experience with your KD 18 series KitchenAid dishwasher, problems like this were common with that design.

Often it was broken glass, etc. that got into the drain valve etc..

The KD 21 series is entirely different does not have a drain valve to start off with also has a very strong grinder. I’ve never seen anything in the drain line of a KD 21 or 22 dishwasher Hobart really redesigned that system because there were so many problems with KD 15 through 20 Dishwashers not draining properly.

John.

 

[bcorey]

Have the new motor and going to install it.  All apart including the clips (I only had 2 where the manual says there should be 3).  Where is the motor mounting plate that I need to pry apart?  The service manual makes it seem like it's on the inside.  Pictures of inside and underneath attached.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 13

You definitely have a bad motor that motor is in terrible shape. It’s had so much water in it. It probably has a bad drain start winding.

I would replace the entire pump and motor assembly with a good one from a more lightly used machine any KD 21 or 22 dishwasher motor will work.

John

 

[bcorey]

John -- I have another one ready to install.  Did you see my question about how to pry it apart safely?

 

[combo52]

Pictures would help

Of the motor that you got, and what you’re trying to take apart exactly, hopefully you got the entire assembly. Otherwise you’re in for an interesting process if you only have a motor.

What clips are you talking about that you only have two of?

 

[bcorey]

Here's what I got:

 

 

[bcorey]

The manual refers to them as the motor retaining clips (picture attached).

 

I'm trying to take the old motor out of the Dishwasher.

 

From the service manual for removing the motor:

4. Unsnap and remove the three motor retaining clips (18).

5. Remove the lower rack, 4-Way Hydro Sweep, and fine strainer from inside tank. Insert a screwdriver blade between motor mounting plate and gasket.

CAUTION: Do not pry between gasket and tank or enamel may be damaged. Pry to loosen gasket from sump.