Maytag 712 Nearly Stops During Spray Rinse (Revisited)

[rp2813]

I've provided a link to a thread I launched about this a year ago for reference.  The subject machine is one of the last to roll off the line with a Pitman transmission in May of 1987.

 

I've been cautious about running heavy loads over the past year, but today something happened that I really didn't expect.  The machine was washing one cotton/poly blend king size flat sheet and a lightweight cotton/poly Italian pull-over shirt, with water level a little more than half full.  It spun fine going into the spray rinse.  Suds were low (less than half a scoop of Gain powder), but about halfway through the spraying, the tub slowed way down, slower than during other incidents with a full load of towels.  It was just barely able to recover to full speed after the spraying stopped and before the timer clicked over to the deep rinse fill sequence. 

 

Since the contents were well-balanced and lightweight, why would this have happened?  I really don't want to have to babysit this machine every time I use it, but that appears to be necessary after today's experience.

 

The real puzzler is, just prior to washing the solo sheet, I ran a full load of bed linens with two king size sheets, two heavy cotton king size pillow cases, four standard pillow cases and four zippered pillow covers.  The machine did a spray rinse without slowing at all, even though it had to drain a full tub of water first, which provided less time for it to get up to top speed before the spray began. 

 

I'm at a loss trying to come up with an explanation for this slowing situation and why it's intermittent.  It clearly has nothing to do with load size or weight, and I'm pretty sure we can rule out suds, too.  Any suggestions in addition to those provided in the linked thread would be appreciated.

Maytag 712 Slows Near End of Spray Rinse

I mentioned this problem in another Maytag thread, but have decided it needs its own discussion. Advice in the other thread was to check pump belt tension. I did, and it was loose (the belt could be squeezed in the middle and both sides would readily touch -- while keeping the motor...

www.automaticwasher.org

 

[DADoES]

 
Drain/pump obstruction would cause that due to water accumulation in the tub, so investigate that angle.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks for the suggestion, but . . .

 

The washer drains into a utility sink.  Water shoots out with good pressure and at high volume during the spin drain sequence.  I remember checking with other vintage large tub Maytag owners here about whether the pump might have an issue by describing the spin speed before the spraying starts -- nearly top speed but not quite -- and they indicated that their machines behaved the same way.

 

However, with final spin well underway, I notice that the steady small stream of water exiting the hose will sometimes increase with a surging action and associated whooshing noise from the pump.  I'm curious as to why this happens, because it seems strange that with everything else fairly constant, the pump would put out a brief spurt of a larger volume a time or two before the final spin cycle is over. 

 

[appnut]

Ralph, I apologize for not keeping up closely, but is this the original pump? What you described regarding the final spin, sounds like the pump is weak. I've never known a washer to do a couple of emphatic wooshes well into final spin. the majority of water should be expelled by the time it reaches full spin and there should only be trickles until the end of the final spin. Just my observation for over 50 years. I remember Maytags as they gradually ramped up to the final spin speed, it would woosh once for a final purge as it get to top spin speed. After that just trickles.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks Bob, I'll keep an eye on it and make sure my description was accurate.

 

The pump that was on this machine when I got it a few years ago made a squeaking/squealing sound and it didn't turn easily.  Its rubber impeller was bloated and rubbing against the housing.  During a visit to Tucson, Roger gave me a replacement pump that turned freely and was silent.  That's the pump that's on the machine now.

 

It just seems weird to me that the pump can exhibit impressively powerful action during the spin drain, which is pushing a huge volume of water through it, but the relatively light flow of water from the cold-only spray rinse can bog it down.  Maybe there's a law or two of physics that explains this, but I wasn't much into the science curriculum in school.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Ralph, when the machine slows down after the spray rinse stops in the last increment of the 1st spin do you hear any sloshing of water in the outer tub at all? That would be a clue that pump is weak. If you hear no water what so ever I wonder if the belt is slipping too much? Is there any leaking that could be causing the belt to get wet, either belt that is?

 

[rp2813]

Hi Robert, and thanks for your reply!

 

There is no sloshing sound and there are no leaks that I'm aware of, but I'll take a look.   Since the pump's belt was replaced just a few years ago and the machine has been used on average only about once or twice a month since, the main drive belt may be the source of the trouble.  It looked to be in satisfactory condition when I got the machine, but it certainly could be slipping more than it should. 

 

When I ordered the pump belt, I also ordered a non-Newton replacement drive belt that I decided not to use, but I can slap it on and then see what happens.  I think that's worth a try.  If it solves the problem I can start watching for a genuine NOS Maytag belt.  I don't trust the modern replacements that aren't designed to slip as Maytag intended.

 

Thanks again!

 

[combo52]

MT DC slowing Down In The Spray Rinse

I am going to guess Suds-Lock, the next time this happens lift the lid as soon as it slows down and pull the clothing away from the tub and see if you see any suds at all coming through the basket holes. 

 

[ often on MT DC washers you don't see a SL because the basket holes are so small that the suds don't come back through the basket holes ]

 

If you don't see any suds let the washer sit for 10-15 minutes then close the lid and let it restart, if a burst of water comes out of the drain hose the machine was either SLed or the pump is air locking from an obstruction in the outer tub or you just have another bad pump.

 

John L.

 

[rp2813]

Hi John,

 

I actually had the lid open and was watching the spin already when it began to slow down, but I didn't know to stop the machine and pull things away from the sides of the tub, so I'll try that with the next incident.  There was no evidence of over-sudsing during the wash cycle with aggressive (for Maytag, anyway) agitation, nor was there much suds created in the laundry sink by the force of the expelled wash water. 

 

I have some other stuff that can be run through this machine so if the problem arises again I'll do what you instructed and see if waiting 10-15 minutes reveals a possible obstruction or pump problem.  So would an obstruction be something like a sock in between the tubs?  That's a plausible scenario since the slowing occurs randomly and apparently isn't related to load size or weight, but as I said in my reply to Robert, there's no sloshing sound either.

 

This machine belonged to a retired couple, and I suspect that they were already empty nesters when they bought it in 1987.  I can't imagine they'd have overloaded it enough to send something up and over the tub, but if in later years they had help coming in, all bets would have been off.

 

[eurekastar]

My A606 will do that sometimes.  I still haven't figured out if the belt is slipping or if it's suds lock.  With these new HE detergents, I'm never quite sure how much to use in a top loader.  I've been wondering too if the rollers on the motor carriage have enough lubricant.  I'll fire it up in the Spring and see if I can't figure that all out! 

 

[wayupnorth]

My 511 will slow during the spray rinse with a large load, like towels, but ramps back up when the spray stops.

 

[yogitunes]

I can get that sudslock issue without warning.....

proper detergent amount used....didn't seem like any sort of excessive sudsing during agitation...but that one chance that the clothing was not quite dirty enough for amount used....then goes into first spin, and you have a suds cake galore...

found beltdrive Kenmore/Whirlpools can be a fine line between right amount for cleaning, yet not suds lock the machine......

you would think this sort of thing would be almost impossible since most all detergents are listed as HE low sudsing.....

Sears Ultra Plus was considered low to no suds....even with major overdoses....I never hads a suds lock issue, but others said it was possible....

 

[good-shepherd]

My 511 will slow during the spray rinse

My A712 powers through the spray rinse no matter the load size or any other variable.

Of course it had a recent tub bearing/boot seal replacement, pump oiled and motor glides lubed.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I used to get a few suds lock with the DD whirlpool and ge.
Next time try to pour half a bucket of water and fabric softener as it slows if it starts pumping water and kicks into spin then it means you had a sudslock. (Softener kills suds)
But maybe is due to a coin in the outer tub.

 

[qsd-dan]

"My A712 powers through the spray rinse no matter the load size or any other variable."

That's how all Maytags behave when everything is properly adjusted and functioning correctly.

 

[bajaespuma]

I had a 712 that slowed to almost a halt regularly during the first spin. There was no suds-lock, no sloshing audible in the outer tub and it didn't happen so much when the water temp was COLD. I think that the motor simply was overloaded when the temp choice was WARM and the volume of water going into the tub right after the throw was too heavy to handle. I notice that on the later DEPENDABLE CARE Tag's the spray interval was drastically reduced from 1 minute on the 712 generation and the Center Dials to 15 seconds. I think the Newton boys knew that this was happening.

 

[qsd-dan]

It's interesting to hear about draining problems on the 11 an 12 series machines. Before the 806 became the daily driver I used an A490 (which got upgraded to an an A712 using a console and 2 speed motor from a parts machine). It was always up to speed before the spray rinse started and had no problems powering through the spray rinse regardless of wash washer temperature and detergent used.....and that includes being connected to temper valve which allows a higher volume of water to enter the tub. It can't be dumb luck.

 

[rp2813]

It appears I have a lot of company dealing with this same issue.

Since this seems to be a more common problem than I expected, I'm hoping that means it's not likely being caused by something between the tubs. I'm not at all inclined to tear things apart to find out.

The motor glides easily so I don't think it's that. This week I'll switch out the drive belt and see what happens. Since there's no rhyme or reason to the slowdowns, it may take a few loads to produce the problem. I have a load of towels to do, though. That's seems to be a reliable way to effect the spray rinse slowdown, so that's what I'll run for the first load with the new belt.

 

[rp2813]

Much Better

I installed the new belt and started a load of towels with maximum fill level.   When agitation kicked in, it was super sloooooow and the machine was producing a low pitched hum.  I advanced the timer to drain some water and see if it would even attempt to spin.  Again, movement was slow, but it was trying and did slowly gain speed. 

 

Not wanting to waste a tub full of wash water, I started the wash cycle again to give things another try, let it fill to replace what had drained, and like magic it kicked in and agitated beautifully.  Smoother, quieter, and I think a little faster with the new Whirlpool-sourced belt.  It was like a new machine.    

 

The spin drain was flawless, with a smoother, quieter spin that was up to full RPM before the spray rinse began.  Once the spraying started, there wasn't a noticeable slowdown.  The machine had passed the acid test with the new belt.

 

I had tried this same new belt at our previous home where the machine lived outside on the covered patio.  Due to its location, I didn't notice any difference in the noise level, so I put the more OEM-like belt back on.  Now that the machine is in the basement, it's easy to hear the difference.

 

I followed the load of towels with a set of queen size flannel sheets and pillow cases.  Again, beautiful smooth, quiet agitation and a quick ramp up to full spin speed before the spray rinse.  This time, about halfway through the spray rinse there was some minor slowing along with a mild sloshing sound.  This lasted maybe 15 or 20 seconds and then the sloshing stopped and the tub quickly regained speed, easily reaching full RPM again in a matter of 10 seconds or so.

 

So, while the new belt has effected a huge improvement, there might still be something else going on.  I'll be running more test loads in the coming days. 

 

I've attached pictures of the old belt (sorry they're sideways -- taken with my iPhone).  It's pretty shiny and has what appears to be the beginnings of fraying.  I'll start watching for a NOS genuine Maytag belt, as the Whirlpool belt is somewhat thinner and isn't designed to slip, so could presumably develop its own issues sooner rather than later.