Miele W1 TDOS - Shock From The Drum - Question

[chrisbsuk]

Hi all,
as you know (or may not!) I have a Miele W1 T DOS washer, and the Miele Washer Dryer.

Recently, I have noticed then when I empty the machine, and spin the drum by hand - e.g. touch the metal drum, I get tingling through my hands and arms, like its a small current run through it.

I asked my parter to touch the drum last night, and he didn't get a shock BUT when I rested my arm on his shoulder as he was touching the drum, I got a shock through me - this isn't static as it is continuous.

I bought a voltage tester today, and put it into the drum - it was showing a clear 12.7v each time I tested it. Also, when I put my arm into the drum and don't touch anything the hairs on my arms stand up.

This isn't happening when I touch the cabinet of the machine, and isn't happening when I touch anything else - e.g. the inside of the dishwasher, or the inside of the tumble dryer.

Miele are coming straight on on Friday morning, and the machine is two years into its full 10 year guarantee - but I wondered if you guys had any advice on what it could be?! My partner thinks its just me but I'm 99% sure the drum shouldn't read 12.7 volts ever. Happy to be proven wrong!

We've had the whole has re-carpeted in the last few days, and that could have built static up in me - but again, this isn't a small shock - its a constant tingle.

I know I sound mad! but its definitely happening....

As always, thanks in advance guys!

Chris

 

[DADoES]

 
No advice or suggestions ... but interested to hear what's the outcome.

 

[combo52]

Slight Voltage Leak To The Drum Of A Miele Washer

You should not be having this happen, The drum and main bearing is normally grounded to the rest of the machine, hopefully it is just a loose or broken ground wire from sloppy assembly or a broken wire from poor design and early failure, in any case it should be easy for a good tech to fix, let us know what they find.

 

John L.

 

[serviscollector]

What was the outcome of the engineer visit? I would think there is a issue with the motor or heater but not enough to trip the RCD/MCB in your consumer unit

 

[chrisbsuk]

Engineer visit...

Hi all,
Thanks for your replies.

Engineer came yesterday, and first tested the grounding for the house - that was all fine, so he then proceeded to check the various parts of the machine. When we shut the power down to the house, the drum showed no voltage so there clearly was a problem.

However, his testing of all the components didn’t reveal anything was wrong with the machine at all. He did however change the water heater as a precaution. When he removed it, it was pretty scaled up, and there are two patches of rust on it - surprising really as the machine is less than two years old. To be honest, this hasn’t really done much as when I was levelling the machine back into place, I got the same tingling through my arms when I touched the metal part of the leg. And the drum still shows power in it from a volt meter that goes away when the main power supply is shut down. To be clear I don’t get this from the dryer drum or the dishwasher - all stainless steel.

Next step, I’m going to call an electrician to look at the whole power supply into the house - it’s all new, but this doesn’t feel right to me at all.

In other news, the engineer has to come back next week as the Twin-Dos system now no longer recognises detergent cartridges in it - Miele were very good and the engineer called me directly, apologised, and said he thinks he may have dislodged the micro switches for Twin-Dos when putting the machine back together.

I’ve attached some pictures of the machine being worked on, and the Twin Dos container following the leak that I think the engineer may have caused when the machine was in pieces.

Will keep you all posted

Chris

 

[combo52]

Voltage Leak From Washer

If you are getting the tingling sensation when touching the cabinet, leg of washer etc you probably have a grounding problem in either the house wiring or possibly the cord of the washer, hopefully the electrical can find the full and fix it easily.

 

The mineral build-up on the heater is is not a washer fault and will happen again, In the future every 6 months or so poor enough solution in the washer to cover the heater to dissolve the lime build-up. You will probably have to use something pretty strong, Washer cleaner will not do it.

 

John L.

 

[foraloysius]

I always had good results with descaling with citric acid. A few tablespoons and a 95C maintenance cycle will get rid of the mineral build up.

 

[arbilab]

That scale is what burns out heat elements by acting like a blanket keeping heat in.  A monthly jug of vinegar allowed to soak will minimize it.

 

The electrical fault is baffling. The working part of the machine as well as the cabinet should be at earth potential.  What else are you touching when this happens?  There has to be a source and a return path.  What are you measuring the drum compared to? 

 

[rolls_rapide]

Electric Shock

That's not good.

I wonder if the suppressor on the mains lead within the machine could possibly be dodgy?

Another suggestion is that some of these modern brushless motors might not be earthed - I'm pretty sure that was the case with the previous Panasonic machine I had - though that had a plastic outer tub.

A final suggestion: some sort of leakage from the low voltage power supply feeding the sensors, drum light, etc?

 

[richnz]

Looking at a WTH service document

There are a few components which use 13v on the WTH washer dryer.
But this is a very interesting post.

I wonder if the tech will find the source or just scrap the lot.

Keep the info coming please.

Cheers

Rich

 

[henene4]

That has to be a house side fault

Bad earthing can cause all kinds of weired issues.

But as has been said, the drum should be earthed.
If you can feel a tingle, the current is most likely beyond the 30 or so milliamps these trip at.

As there is no part that could short to the drum without causing a circuit to earth, your RCD should trip in this situation.

What was your exact model again?

As it is a pretty low but sustained voltage, I've been thinking towards sensors leaking to the drum.
Like the heater NTC or - if it has one - somehow a balnce sensor or load sensor or such.
But all these don't have any obvious path in order to short to the drum.

Or maybe a sensor in the motor?
These motor housings should still be metal bolted to the metal tub, and if some kind of sensor in there gets weired that could happen.

In deed, verry strange...

 

[gizmo]

12.7v showed on your tester - was that AC or DC?  I'm guessing AC. You shouldn't be able to feel DC.

 

I don't know if this is relevant, but I am currently playing with a Miele washer (W3831 from memory) which has sticker on the top of the outer drum which says "Only use a belt tested to be safe with high voltage" or something like that. maybe a risk of current leaking from motor to drum via the belt? Motor windings should be insulated from the drum shaft but it might be faulty.

 

Certainly a weird one. I suspect house wiring - even the power outlet or the machine's own cord.

 

[paulg]

Just got back from a fire-fighters convention

I explained what happened at my house to the gents at the lunch table. One fella, an engineer gave an explanation. I do not know if he is correct - but he certainly was credentialed. I also do not know if my experience pertains to your symptom - but here goes. I will try to keep it short.

Some time ago, I experienced flickering lights throughout the house. Couldn’t immediately find cause but I did notice that the power lines to the house were going through trees that shook in the wind. Thinking that COM-ED would not believe the problem was theirs, I invested in a certified electrician (I am EE not Certified Electrician) to come and inspect the breaker box.
The fella came over and explained that the breaker box was in near-new condition and was not the problem. However he poked around the house and found an oddity. A few months earlier the city had replaced our water meters with the new wireless-data-retrieval kind. The old water meter was metal-bodied. The new water meter is plastic.. When the city installed the meter they did not add a grounding strap from the house water pipe to the inlet from the street. Therefore my water pipes were allegedly grounded solely through the flow of water. The electrician added the grounding strap to jump out the plastic water meter and restore the ground.
NOW.. I didn’t know the ramifications of the missing strap. Never could figure it out. I posed it to the table of firefighters and engineers.
The engineer that responded stated that the ground strap was there to prevent charges developing on the water. I’ve had it happen that I felt a zap or tingle when dispensing water but it wasn’t objectionable and I didn’t know cause. This symptom may be the reason for the strap.
Incidentally, the strap did NOT fix the flickering lights. COM-ED did come out and, although they couldn’t find the cause they did tighten the connections on the pole and transformer and my problems went away. I have included a picture of the copper strap.
All comments welcome.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Did this fault ever get fixed?