Modern washing machine energy usage claims: propoganda, or real?

[chestermikeuk]

Testing, Tests, Users and Machines..

I was researching with a leading detergent manufacturer years ago at their technical centre, I happen to ask why they didnt invite us (as in appliance groups etc) to test new detergents with all our different washers - the reply stunned me at the time "Because with you guys we wouldnt get the results we require" !! "scuse me" ? "well you guys would take a machine, sort the laundry, select a programme and work out the correct dosage of detergent" - so skewing our results because you probably know more than we do"....

Then the penny dropped ha ha, he continued, "We need the lowest common denominator, we need to know our detergent will work across all eventualities, wrong programme selection, mixed fabric washes and people who DONT understand how their washer works"...so there you have it !!

 

[vacerator]

Yes Phil,

I was really feeling my oats yesterday. I wish they'd test my wallet before they build an appliance though. I usually by higher end because it should last longer with fewer problems. Maybe they should test them for longer than a few months.
Performance isn't longevity, and even sales people will tell you, longevity is no more.
You and I are "as the saying goes" Older, with more insurance, not come down with yesterdays rain. We've done laundry longer, and know what kind of washer did better.
So for a company to make the claim that they took the best of two previously made drive systems and incorporated them into a new one is a false claim. Any consumer testing aside. That claim got me to buy it, and now I know the truth.
I relaxed last nigh when I slept.
This morning I feel like Mr. Smith goes to Washington.

 

[mayken4now]

Hello and Welcome

One thing is for sure! Leave your New HE machine alone, it will stink! (Plenty of threads on that subject.) I don't care if it's top or front. That is user error for the most part.

Buy a Speed Queen Front Loader and be done.

--Steve

 

[henene4]

A new high of anti-HE ignorance

So, up until now I just thought that most of the anti-HE people on here had a verry strong entitlement to their opinion and their ignorance wasn't ignorance per se, just a verry strong believe.

But thanks to one single person, every other non-HE praiser has lost this privilege once and forever, except if they somehow show at least some thinking in their posts.

What I'm reffering to is norgechef's reply (reply #23) in Andrew's (murando531) thread about his Maytag Atlantis (thread #66926; "Should I revive my poor Maytag Atlantis?").

You know, I don't expect everybody to know everybody on here, but Andrew is literally the HE appliance "reviewer" on this site in my opinion.
He made 3 FULL cycle videos about his Maytag HE TL on YouTube, as well as his verry verry well visited threads about his WP HE DW with filter. Both are his daily drivers, both have proven to give outstanding results time and time and time again, with actualy verry little care as far as I understand.

Now, he creates a post that is verry verry explicit about him rebuilding a non-HE machine because of his emotional relations to this machine. At least as far as I understand, there was no motive in this thread about making this washer his daily driver again, and even less of a hint that he liked it because it gives such great and superior results compared to his current one.

And what is the first sentence in norgechef's reply?
Of corse, the one sentence that every single non-HE enthusiast shouts as soon as it comes up; that one phrase that seems to be on a shortcut key on their keyboards; that one sentence, right into the face of the person who basicly switched completly to HE and loves it:

"If you want a washer that lasts and that cleans your clothes..."

I mean, come on, you are not even trying the littlest anymore.
Not only was that not a topic in the first place, no, you can't even recognize the people who fight against you anymore.

I'm just blown away by this sheer lack of common sense of some here, and I'm done trying to be nice to people who don't even read the original posts they are replying to.

I'm sorry, but that just hit me right into the stomach.

 

[vacerator]

I'd go with

an Advance Laundry System (speed queen) product knowing as I do now.

 

[speedqueen]

I have to disagree about Norgechef's reply...

You may claim that Norgechef never read the OP but it is obvious that you never read past his first sentence where he, in quite an amount of depth, explained what to do about the leaking transmission. His first sentence wasn't objectionable either because he was complementary of the machine in question and had no intention of causing a stir in anyone.

In fact you misquoted his first sentence as well, here is a direct copy/paste of it.

"If you want a reliable top loader (more reliable than anything on the market today), that still fills the full way up and cleans the clothes, and your up for the repair then go for it."

This is clearly a complement to the Maytag Atlantis in question and not a call for debate on behalf of Norgechef.

At least finish reading the post before berating the author.

 

[johnb300m]

I agree with you SpeedQueen.

Henene, I thoroughly enjoy your comments most of the time, but I have to disagree with your interpretation this time around.
Just sayin'

 

[speedqueen]

I think I should add

That I usually do enjoy reading your posts as well Henane4, they are very informative.

 

[murando531]

@Henrik - While I do COMPLETELY agree with what you're saying about the certain group of antiHEers here, I honestly don't believe norgetag meant any insult at all in his comments. There are two users that I can name right off the bat that are horribly guilty of knee-jerk "everything new is crap I'm selling my stocks also I bought groceries today since that's relevant in this sentence" remarks (and I'm sure we all know who they are), but norgetag has never fallen into that group from what I've seen. I greatly appreciate your support and coming to my defense, but I think there may have just been a misunderstanding in how the comments came across. Lord knows I've been guilty of reading a post too quickly and mistaking its meaning before having to catch myself and read it again slowly and realize it was entirely different.

I took norgetag's comments as supportive advice, and in his statement "If you want a reliable top loader that fills the full way up..." I interpreted it as a nod towards the high-quality, minimal trouble build that the Atlantis has, which I completely agree with. If the Atlantis were still available as a new machine on the market today, a Speed Queen would be as irrelevant as a horse and carriage in the age of automobiles today. I say that solely in regard to traditional top-loaders, however. I could never use the Atlantis as a daily driver because the Bravos XL out performs it in every possible category. For its time the Atlantis and Neptune were the Rolls Royce of the laundry world, in my opinion, despite what people might say about their longevity. This particular Atlantis has been running non stop since 2002, and still runs strong despite losing oil. I'd say that speaks volumes for its design.

TL;DR: I love you both and greatly enjoy your posts and support. Let's hug and make up, because there are users here that actually *do* intend insult for no reason other than to be salty and drab. <3

 

[washman]

hi Frig!

 

[joe_in_philly]

My suggestion is to get the machine that will make you happy. People have different preferences and priorities, and thus make different choices.

I will share my experience switching from a traditional TL washer to a HE FL washer.

I had a GE Filter-Flo TL washer that I enjoyed using. My clothes were clean, and I liked the washing machine. When it needed to be replaced, I got a FL washer. Despite reading about how little water FL washers used, I was immediately worried during the machine's maiden wash because I could not believe so little water could wash and rinse the clothes effectively. But the results have been great, so I have learned that you don't need a tub full of water and an agitator to get clothes clean.

Benefits of the having a FL washer for me were that I could eliminate my ritual of pretreating stains and soaking heavily soiled items. I can just use the appropriate cycle on my FL machine and a decent detergent and everything comes out stain free and clean. I like that I can sanitize and clean very heavy soiled clothes in 156F water without having to fuss with my house water heater; the washer heats just the water in the drum! Different stains can be cleaned in the same load, since it can start the wash cycle at a cooler temp, and then heat it up so there is no worry of setting a stain that requires cooler water.

I went from an average of 7-6Ccf of water use per month to an average of 3-4Ccf. I used less detergent, bleach, and softener. The longer wash time also comes with shorter dry times since items come out less damp. There is much less lint in the dryer lint filter, no lint on clothing, and clothes look new longer since the tumbling is more gentle on fibers than the agitator in a full tub of water. You can tell when someone has washed a cheap sweatshirt in an over-packed TL washer - it is covered with little pills. I can pack my FL washer's drum full, and everything comes out clean. I didn't overfill my TL machine, but it still was rougher on clothes than a FL washer.

I like that my FL washer will adjust each cycle based on the properties of the load. Small loads finish faster than larger loads with all else being equal. Absorbent items like towels get a different final spin routine than a load of lightweight clothes. A decent sized load takes 45-50 minutes, so it is not like it takes a super long time for a normal load. I can also run it through shorter/longer cycles if I would like.

I have had my FL washer for over 13 years. I replaced the belt and drain pump myself, each taking just a couple of minutes - it took more time to remove and replace the appropriate panel of the washer than to actually replace the parts. I should mention I am NOT mechanically inclined, and have never even attempted any type of appliance repair. The original drain pump was a known bad design on my machine, but the redesigned pump has not been a problem.

In summary, when it comes time to replace my machine, I will again go with a HE FL washer. I love how well it cleans, the savings and flexibility it offers.

If you could try some FL washers at friend's or family's houses, you could then better judge if you would like them and what brand you prefered. When my friend stayed with me and had her stained kids clothes to clean, I told her to not pretreat the stains and just use the stain treat option and see what happens. She was so impressed, soon after she returned home she replaced her TL washer with a FL washer.

 

[launderess]

Above post pretty much sums things up...

Either method of doing laundry will get you there; H-axis or top loader with central beater; however the former will do so with less bother, energy and chemical use along with other benefits over the latter.

Automatic top loading washers are really just one level up from using wringer washer. That in turn took over from washboards, dolly pegs and other methods of doing washing by hand. However the underlying principles remain the same. Heavily to even moderately soiled wash should be pre-washed/soaked, never start with hot water, never wash in dirty water, stains should be attended to before going into the wash.

With front loaders that self heat water you can dispense with some pre-treating because cycles start in cool or cold water then gradually reach hot or warm. This shifts certain stains that would be set by hot water ( starches, protein, albumen).

All methods of doing laundry arise from the same five main principles: time, water temperature, chemical action, mechanical action, and amount of water. Any decrease in one normally requires an increase in the others and vice-versa.

Top loading washers use far more water than H-axis washers but also a more powerful central beater (mechanical) action. The detergents and other chemicals used are highly diluted (all that water) but that is made up by the above mechanical action.

H-axis washers use principles more in line with doing laundry by hand. Soapy/detergent water is pushed through textiles while they tumble back and forth. This action also causes fibers to flex and open releasing soils. The action of hitting sides of wash tub (lifting and dropping if you want) replicate the same actions of hand washing. Because you are pushing water through laundry rather than moving it through water you can use less of that substance and still obtain good results. Add a forced pump system that recirculates water through the wash and water use can be lessened further still.

 

[qualin]

Regarding henene4's comment....

Just for the record, I'm not anti-HE. In fact, it makes sense to me and detergents these days are designed for it. (I'm sure the scientists that do the R&D at the detergent manufacturers know what they're doing.)

What I'm against is TL HE. The concept, I believe, this being my own personal opinion and not backed up by any scientific evidence, just doesn't work as well as a FL. I mean, there are numerous videos of people with HE TL machines that show just how slow and ineffective the turnover is with a washplate or agipeller. It seems to me that TL HE is just a stop gap solution. I did once think about buying a washplate machine, but after seeing those videos, I'm just not sold on them anymore.

In replying to Joe's post, (Reply #29), you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The same cleaning or better, but with lower operating costs.

Honestly, like I said before, there are absolutely no benefits to the cost savings if the machine isn't built to last or needs the occasional time-consuming and labour intensive bearing job because it was under designed or used cheap poor quality bearings.

I honestly don't think I could add anything more to this thread...

 

[vacerator]

Ansolutely

on the above last three posts.
F/L bearings also wear, and are costly to replace.
Maybe ceramics can enter the engineering design, of course the price points are also calculated according to how long the average life span of the washer is.
Also what the assembly employees are paid, and keeping them employed as well.
There are still plenty of North American grandmothers out there who will not try a front loader no matter what they are told.

 

[launderess]

And there were American women who clung to wringer washers

Long after fully automatics came along. Again to each his or her own.

It is worth noting on both sides of the Atlantic commercial laundries going back to the late 1800's onwards went with H-axis washing machines and have never looked back. Some places may have had a one or two top loaders for small odd loads, but never would they used for routine wash.

Now all this being said again if you need to plow through tons of laundry quickly a top loader is up your street. However again how much time are you saving if the thing is done properly for badly soiled/stained washing. By the time you pre-wash/soak, pre-treat, main wash and perhaps a few rinses you've hit thirty minutes or more. The fastest commercial based washers from SQ can knock out a load in about the same time.

Speaking on that subject one reason have considered getting a wringer washer (besides it being one step up from doing things in a tub...*LOL*) and that yes, can get through tons of wash quickly compared to the Miele or AEG, and with better results than the laundryette's SQ washers.

The cycles on my local laundromat machines are too fast (about 30 min or less) and water often not hot enough (very short prewash with cold water, no spin after draining and filling with water for the wash, uses tap hot water), to get things really clean. Am noticing persons who routinely do wash at this place have plenty of tattle-tale grey.

Now wouldn't want to do my entire wash each week with a wringer, but for the odd large load of sheets it may just do.

 

[vacerator]

So True!

My mom even had a wringer washer when I was a young tyke.
My top loader plow through loads of laundry in a hurry? No, only four or bath towels at a time. Two pair of pants, three or four shirts, socks, and some undies.
Now it's an impeller type. It's not made for large loads.
The bulky cycle uses a full tub of water, twice, with nominal roll over. A large load floats on the top of the water.