Phosphate dishwasher detergent problems

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therhett17

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Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
22
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
Hey all, I recently bought an industrial phosphate dishwasher detergent powder for my 1990s KA dishwasher. I feel like the product cleans well, but I keep getting a chalky layer leftover on the dishes afterwards (see pic). I read some reviews on Bubble Bandit (which seems to be very similar) and it seems some people had the same problems with it, but a lot didn’t. Is there anything I can do differently to avoid this or should I just go back to Cascade? I have my water heater set to 160° and I’ve only been using 1/2 tbs in the main wash and the same amount in the pre wash. Also, here are the ingredients in the detergent:

Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate, dihydrate
Silicic Acid, Disodium Salt
Sodium Tripolyphosphate

therhett17-2023040407394502991_1.jpg
 
Link

Oh and here's a link to the detergent

Machine Dishwash Compound, Powdered, 25 lbs pail [08 MDW - 25] : WorldwideJanitor.com

WorldwideJanitor.com Machine Dishwash Compound, Powdered, 25 lbs pail [08 MDW - 25] - Machine Dishwash Compound (Powdered, 08 MDW) a commercial dish soap powder with phosphates. 25 lbs pail Remove heavy soil and tenacious stains with this non-foaming, heavy-duty dishwashing powder. Machine...
worldwidejanitor.com worldwidejanitor.com
 
I assume you know this but setting a water heater to 160 degrees is very high (sounds terrifying to me) and could burn unsuspecting guests, not to mention its raising your energy bills unnecessarily. It also may be stressing parts that are probably better suited to no more than 140. 120 is the lower recommended limit to prevent legionella growth. But of course its a personal decision like everything else.....
 
I'll be damned...

Phosphate and chlorine laden detergent still exists.

 

Is your water on the hard side?

 

I'd get those chalky results on occasion when I used institutional cascade in hard water. Problem disappeared in soft water conditions.

 

Try doubling the dose in both cups and see if the problem lessens or disappears. 
 
White film on dishes

You don’t mention your water conditions and how clean or dirty the dishes are going in the dishwasher.

In any event I would reduce water temp to a maximum of 140 F or 120 and use the temperature boost option on your dishwasher if it is not automatically programmed.

Also try a premium pod in the main detergent cup and add 1 tablespoon of whatever dishwasher liquid or powder you want to use in the pre-wash cup.

Let us know how this works out.

John.
 
Thanks for the responses/questions! Here's some info:

I live in central Oklahoma, according to hard water maps our water is considered hard at about 8-9 gpg.

I tried it at about 140 and got the same chalky results, so I raised it to 160. The detergent also says on the box that 160 is optimal. Don't have kids and not worried about a slight rise in energy costs.

I filled the main wash and prewash up to the 3/4 line in the very beginning and got the same results. So I reduced, thinking maybe I was using too much.

I don't get the chalky results with regular cascade complete pods/tablets. I have rinse aid in the dispenser, although I haven't verified if its actually being released.

The dishes I've been putting in aren't extremely dirty but not pre-rinsed. Mainly cereal bowls, silverware, a pot with sauce, etc.
 
It's not a temperature problem, I don't think you're using enough product.

 

I've had my water heater set at 160F for decades, no problems. Those temps are necessary for getting whites nice and clean using oxygen bleach in a washer without a heater. The energy used is almost negligible since less water is pulled from the heater under normal conditions.
 
Half a tablespoon in the main wash is definitely not enough detergent.  A tablespoon is 15 ml, so you're only using 7.5 ml when you should be using closer to 40 ml.  8-9 GPG is considered hard water, although not extremely hard.  I would recommend filling the dispenser completely.  The photo shows the dosing guide for a KitchenAid KUDS23.  You might be better off using a good detergent pac instead.

 

In the link you provided, it says that this detergent can also be used for hand washing dishes.  This is the first time I have ever seen a dishwasher detergent say this.  In fact, they normally say they are not suitable for washing dishes by hand.  And I wonder if it really does contain STPP -- they claim it's 20-30% phosphate.  Before the phosphate ban, Cascade contained about 30% phosphate which equates to about 8% phosphorus content.

 

marky_mark-2023040411215500871_1.png
 
You're welcome!  Thanks for adding the extra info.  It's interesting that they're saying it causes severe skin burns but can be used when washing dishes by hand 🤔

 

I have experimented with all kinds of different dishwasher detergents in different dishwashers, including ones with chlorine and phosphate.  I also sometimes add phosphate to modern detergents.  But I have always had a water softener (either whole-house or built into the dishwasher) so I don't have any experience of trying to alleviate the effects of hard water.

 

Another thought could be that the Cascade pacs contain a so-called "rinse aid action" which could help to avoid hard water build up, especially combined with the separate rinse aid you're using.  Whereas the dishwasher powder you're using will not have a rinse aid effect, so you might need to turn up the rinse aid setting on your dishwasher.  I would probably recommend filling the detergent dispenser completely full and also try increasing the rinse aid dosage when you're not using "all-in-one" pacs.

 

Good luck!

Mark
 
Mark

It's a builder-grade KA, model KUDD230Y2 from the early 90s. It unfortunately has no rinse aid settings, although I should probably run a test to verify that the dispenser is working at all. I just got this dishwasher and ran it a few times with Cascade pods and it seemed to do okay, although some things didn't seem as clean as they could be. Did research on the different detergent types and determined a phosphate-based detergent would work best since this machine was designed for it with its short cycles.
 
I use Cascade Fryer Boil Out, which has phosphates, and I will get the white residue sometimes if my rinse aid is empty. I'm wondering if your rinse aid dispenser is working. I will also add that I live in an area with very hard water as well. I'm trying to get my husband to install a water softener.
 
I think it's the detergent to blame

Proper old style detergents used Sodium Metasilicate as the chief builder. They were clean rinsing.

Once upon a time, I used plain washing soda (sodium carbonate) in the dishwasher, everything ended up coated in a powdery residue.

Similarly, Finish Powder circa 2017, has a similar powdery result.

Thus I think it is the Sodium Carbonate component to blame.

Just checked Reckitt Benkiser's UK 'Finish' ingredients... It would appear that Sodium Disilicate has also now mysteriously disappeared. Carbonate is listed instead.

Sodium Metasilicate was interchangeable with Disilicate. Lever's 'Sun' dishwasher powder once listed Sodium Metasilicate, whereas Benkiser's Finish had Sodium Disilicate. I think the inference was that disilicate was a little gentler on the dishes.
 
I set my water heater on "HELL" --------

when I got it 15 years ago and haven't touched it since. I like it boiling out of the tap.
I have used the Cascade Fryer Boil-Out for years with great results. Very hard water where I live and no residue.

I usually barely fill both cups in my old KDP-20.
 

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