SQ vs. other companies

[supersurgilator]

I was just wondering why other companies, like Whirlpool, couldn't make their machines like SQ to meet the energy regulations? How is SQ able to get around the regulations with their Normal Eco cycle, yet still allow for full tub wash and rinses with true HOT water. I understand its because the DOE just tests Normal cycles, but it seems to me that Whirlpool could also build a regular toploader with full tubs of water and keep a separate cycle to pass the energy regulations. WHy is SQ the only one to think of these things?

I also want one of the electronic control models after seeing a video of it in action.

 

[gusherb]

My assumption is that a company like Whirlpool doesn't want anything to do with what they'd consider an old outdated design, plus you can damn well bet that the belt drive top loaders are much cheaper to manufacture then a DD machine.

 

[combo52]

New Washers and Energy Requirements

For one thing the SQ TL washers are not energy star machines, they are just squeaking by using a few sneaky technicalities [ WP and other companies also find ways to bend the rules a little also ], but I suspect that if SQ becomes too successful selling their TL washers they are likely to be banned in states like California pretty soon because of excessive water usage.

 

[joeypete]

SQ HE top loader?

I bet SQ could make one hell of a HE top load washer. I wonder if they are pondering that??

 

[kb0nes]

My hunch is that the belt drive design washer is quite likely more expensive to build compared to a direct drive model, especially if they can use a multi-phase motor and electronics to replace the transmission. Simplicity is the key.

Hunch #2 is that the other manufacturers are no longer placing their eggs in the deep fill traditional top load basket because they know that it won't be around much longer... Water will become an increasingly scarce thing in the future (See also California).

As for Speed Queen making a good top load HE machine, they were more clever and they flipped the axis 90 degrees. The only way to make HE really work is with a front loader. The Europeans have known this for years. If Peabody could set the Wayback machine 15 years ahead, I bet we would see the top load HE's will only be a blip in history.

These are just my views from way up in the cheap seats, perhaps the people in the front row have a better view...

 

[rapunzel]

Water is scarce in some places and not others and washing machines are not a threat to water resources. Water scarcity in many places is the result of lacking infrastructure and long-standing government inertia and mismanagement. HE washing machines are a cosmetic approach to water conservation and the easiest way for governments to show the public that they are being proactive, when they are actually not really doing very much at all. It is easy to ban a certain design of washing machine and pay manufacturers and retailers tax payer funded rebates to market these so-called water efficient designs, but there is so much more to that story and 99.9% of consumers aren't interested anyway. They prefer to buy stars and fancy programs that play show tunes and what not - as long as it is eco verified it doesn't even have to really work.

 

[supersurgilator]

That is true that SQ does stick to the tried and true design, they know what cleans the clothes. I think its kinda funny that they always emphasize a full tub of water for rinse and actual water temps. Does anybody have a link back to that grid thing that shows the requirements for 2015 and again for 2018 which SQ mentioned something about an impellar machine? I can't for the life of me find it so I'm hoping one of you will remember.

 

[frigilux]

"The only way to make HE really work is with a front-loader."

Damn straight! Front-loaders are custom-made for HE.

It's been an exceptionally dry spring in southwestern Minnesota, where we've been in severe drought conditions the past few summers. The pattern the past couple of years has been this: Plenty of rain through the second week in June, at which time the tap shuts off completely for the remainder of the summer. And now no rain even in April? Yikes.

 

[rapunzel]

"The only way to make HE really work is with a front-loader."

The front loaders of today are shite - sorry, for all the eco sentimentality, the front loaders of yesteryear, that used more than today's SQ top loaders, outwashed and OUTRINSED anything and everything on the market today. Washing machines need water. They tweak and tweak and tweak some more to comply with government mandates and to cash in on rebates and other incentives. All the while they push the envelope so far that machines are not really performing all that great. What is the correct amount of water to use in a washing machine? Where is the scientific consensus? There is nothing scientific about it - that is the correct answer. It is engineering for all other purposes and clean, well-rinsed clothes are not the primary objective anymore. When our CR now says that many HE machines (especially front loaders) are not rinsing properly, especially after they initially promoted them as the bees knees of modern laundry, what more evidence does one need that we are being sold inferior products?

I guess when consumer priority has shifted from clean to eco-clean and nobody is interested in investing any time at all in mundane tasks like doing laundry, or housework in general, we prefer to leave it to the 'experts' (whoever they are); to give us products for dummies. This way modern people can have more time on facebook and twitter to gush about their environmental awareness and how they are doing their bit for the planet and to play with their pink bits in front of their computers. That is, after all, much more fun.

 

[gusherb]

Speaking of not rinsing

I'm convinced our Speed Queen rinses better with just one rinse then our HE FL did with 3 rinses (and many here say SQ doesn't rinse well). Yet everything in the end comes out smelling fresher and feels cleaner.
Another thing is, even though our SQ uses upwards of 40 gallons per cycle on the max load setting, I don't think our water usage will be much higher if any higher at all. Things had to get rewashed frequently if they still came out smelling bad, which they did fairly often in the old machine.

The only front loader I was impressed with lately was the 40 pound speed queen washer extractor I used at the laundromat to wash a comforter. That thing raced through 2 wash and 3 rinse cycles in 35 minutes sparing no water in the process and the comforter came out far cleaner then I expected it would.

 

[henene4]

Oh no, not again...

(Who ever gets this quote: Please hand me a towel )
FLs are so bad. And you need full tubs to rinse and wash. And 40 gallons compared to 20 does not change a thing. Things had to be rewashed each and every time. Everything except SQ is bad and not worth a thing! And all this water problem is just hoax!

I actually made a whole travel through opinions about such statements. First, I thought you might not had enough evidence shown to prove these "facts" wrong. Than I was puzzeled about the way people reacted on this topic. Than I was annoyed. Than I got angry and now, I think it's just sad.
I mean, come on, if FLs as what they are would not work at all, about 1 billion people would have dirty, soapy clothes. And I mean, I doubt that the people in Europe would not have recognized. (I know comparing USA and EU FLs is a basic no-go, but its the system people complain about.)
And if somebody in Australia makes that statement, I just can LAUGH at that person. If somebody tells me water isn't a problematic resource in Australia, I just get really sad. And if somebody told me Australian FLs do not wash good, I would have to have a really good day to stay calm.
Today is not one of these days, so here I go, again, producing a huge debate where no one listens to anybody.

First, rapunzel, you spend a lot of time on this site. So do not judge what you basicly do your self.
Second, wrong, there are numbers for water ratios in washers! It's even on the German Wikipedia. A full-tub TL needs enough water to submerge all clothing in water. A FL needs a third per fill, for the maximum water level.
Bad rinsing: Yeah. There are machines that do rinse bad. But I have yet to see a washer that I could not make rinse well. And SQ TL owners on here (and mean those who know) reported average rinsing results on their TLs as well.

Everybody say "Tumbling clothes can't clean them!" I say agitation can't clean them better.
Look, on a traditional TL, laundry can only rub against the agitator with enough force to consider it cleaning. Against other fiber there is basicly no friction as everything is submerged in water. And that water may be a lot, but does not circulate any faster through the laundry than the laundry does through the water.
Have you ever handwashed something? You grab the spot you are cleaning and rub it against another part of what ever you are washing. Than you shortly submerge it into the water, pull it out again to have a flow of water through it. Then you rub it again. And so forth and so forth. Does you TL simmulate that? I guess not, hugh?
Have you ever walked down a stair and took more than one at a time? You know the force you feel on your legs while you are doing this? Imagine doing this about 1000 times. Would work you through, wouldn't it? But your feet would only feel harmed, but physicly probably wouldn't be. But if I beat your legs with a plastic piece about 1000 times, you would not only feel harmed, but would rather likely be. Get the comparison I make?
Everybody knows what to do to rinse out a washcloth thats soapy. You don't submerge it in water and wiggle it about. You wring it out, soak it, and wring it out again. After 2-3 repeats, you have a clean washcloth. After a short wring and a bath in water, you do not.

A FL that is well designed, well programmed and well used is outcleaning, outrinsing and outspinning any traditional TL. It will be more gentle and more efficient. It will, after all, be better.
And I can name you quite some that do manage that:
- LGs with recirculation
- Hotpoint&#92Indesit
- Panasonic (still, best washer used so far)
- The new Gorenjes
- Mieles (as long one selects Water Plus)
- etc.

 

[henene4]

(My previous post was not read by my self again before posting, so please excuse bad grammar, typos and wrong punctuation!)

 

[joeypete]

Touchy subject!

You make some excellent points Henrik. It's very clear that depending on what part of the world you are in, opinions on new/old washing machines can vary greatly.

Americans, generally speaking, don't like change. I mean how many times growing up did any of us hear "They don't make them like they used to" or "Back in MY day", etc, etc. Pertaining to lots of things, not just washing machines, lol. My parents bought my Grandmother both a microwave and a food processor. The microwave sat unused in her kitchen for years and I now have the food processor (she gave it back to us shortly after we gave it to her!). Just as we have lots of people complaining about HE machines, I'm sure back in 1960 there were plenty of people complaining about "modern" automatic washing machines. Who needs an AUTOMATIC machine?!? Go to the wash sink and scrub your clothes on a wash board. How lazy!!! ;-)

I was just at Lowe's last night looking at machines. The sales person was busy with a guy who I'm guessing was 65-70 years old. I lost count of how many times I heard him say "Those environmentalists!!!" By the facial expressions I noticed on the salesman's face, it must have been a bit of struggle trying to find this guy a machine he liked. Oddly, he picked a Samsung HE top loader. LOL. Funny.

He was an in person example of those awful reviews you read on shopping sites about washing machines. I remember when I bought my GE HydroWave last fall, some people LOVED it and some people HATED it. "It sounds like it's broken"; the manual explains that it will sound different than older machines, in fact GE has many YouTube videos that actually reproduce them so you know what to expect. Obviously they don't read the manual. "The agitation is so slow and gentle, it doesn't clean!!!" Again, no idea how the machine works with the 360 degree wash arc. The only thing that mine hasn't been able to clean is my white socks, but then they didn't come clean in the LG front loader I used for 2 years either. White socks are difficult to get clean! Everything else has been perfect. It's mind numbing!

Personally I like top load machines, but again, because that's what I'm familiar with. I grew up with them. I remember countless times standing on a chair in the laundry room with a butter knife stuck in the latch hole and broom stick to push all the clothes down (because I overloaded it). Awesome memories, but things change. I've used front load machines many times and as boring as they were to me (in terms of a spectator), every time I did my laundry, my clothes came out just as clean as they did in our Kenmore DD machines growing up.

Perception and laundry skills have a huge effect on what is actually reality with modern washing machines. I remember reading an article that talked about how a good chunk of people's clothes, don't REALLY get that dirty. Of course you have exceptions…the kids that get covered in dirt, ketchup, chocolate ice cream….the husband (or whoever) that's a mechanic and comes home covered in diesel exhaust and grease…landscaper who looks like they planted themselves in the dirt! And so on…. But generally speaking for most, you throw your clothes in any current washer, and they will come out "clean". I mean all these kids, and mechanics, and dirty landscape or construction workers were around in 1960 when most Americans had never even seen a front load machine, unless you happen to be tortured by going to a laundromat. Even them they were considered more of a commercial device. Using good quality laundry detergent and effective stain treatment (just like Grandma used to do), makes a HUGE difference. Believe me, I spent years buying the big bottle of Xtra detergent for $5 only to find a bottle of Tide on clearance. Night and day….I couldn't believe how much better my clothes (whites in particular) came out.

Lots of thoughts in my post and hopefully I get my point across. I respect everyone here and the varied opinions we all share with each other. That's what makes this forum fun, we get to interact and learn new ideas and points of view. I personally care about the Earth we live in and our environment. Water shortage in the United States varies. I can see areas like southern CA and the desert, where water needs to be pumped in from hundreds of miles away, should be concerned with how much water they use to wash clothes. Here in the northeast, not so much. Granted we have droughts from time to time, but generally speaking, water shortage is not a big issue. But if you look at places like China where you literally get sick from just being outside, as a whole, we need to be responsible with our natural resources and chemicals we pump back into it.

Can't we all just get along? ;-)

Happy Washing!

 

[ea56]

Both Henrik and Joeypete have made some very good points in their posts. We absolutely have to realize that our natural resources can be limited, depending upon where you live. Personally, I used to really prefer a front loader, before they got screwed around with all the unnecessary computer controls. I had a White Westinghouse front loader that we bought new in 1987 and we sold it with the house in 1994. It was still working excellently, with no repair calls after 7 years. It used less water than a toploader, but more than the current breed of front loaders. It was simple in design, yet had controls that met all my washing needs. I could wash a king size down comforter or 2 king size plillows with no problems. It didn't "hunt"around for a sweet spot to begin to spin, when the timer landed on spin, thats what it did. It completed a load in 40 to 45 mins, no ATC, hot water was hot water. And the laundry always came out clean. It never got moldy or smelled. Basically, it was great. Now, if manufactures offered this kind of front load washer again, I'd buy one in a hot second. In the meantime, I'll stick with my GE and be VERY careful about washing with as little water as possible, at least until we are out of the drought here in No. Calif.

 

[washman]

Nothing wrong with change

when it actually WORKS.

Problem is, we've been inculcated to believe that anything new is automtiacally better than the old and by golly since the goobermint thunk it up, it HAS to be without error or flaw.

Poppycock!

"new" these days inevitably means less thought, less design, less quality, more expense and impossible to repair.

I'd go for "new" in a heartbeat IF I could see the quality and durability to justify the price. I'd go for "new" in a new york minute IF it was repairable. As such, most items these days are just that........five star pieces of junk that are insults to manufacturing at best, one step above a streetwalker at worst.

Yet we keep on keeping on, demanding "new" "cheap" "cost effective" and as a result, we keep getting the same song, just sung in a different key.

 

[joeypete]

I totally get that washman! I actually ordered a new Kenmore HE set (made by LG). Really good price and I chickened out at the last minute because all that electronics and sub sconic spin speeds scares me. Granted LG has a good reliability rating but I've had a couple friends spend hundreds of dollars replacing circuit boards. So my quest continues. I'm drawn to the Speed Queen stackable front load set, but the $2800 price tag scares me a bit…. lol

 

[lordkenmore]

>Just as we have lots of people complaining about HE machines, I'm sure back in 1960 there were plenty of people complaining about "modern" automatic washing machines. Who needs an AUTOMATIC machine?!? Go to the wash sink and scrub your clothes on a wash board. How lazy!!! ;-)

There probably were many complaining about automatics. Indeed, my mother told me of women of her mother's generation who were somewhat anti-automatic for some time, preferring Ye Olde Faithful Wringer machine. And they'd swear that the old machines washed better. (Sound familiar? LOL)

 

[kb0nes]

Who needs an AUTOMATIC machine?!?

Exactly John. Those new fangled machines with their mechanical timers are so much less reliable then this rock in the stream

Resistance to change is a big part of the problem. When the conventional wringer machines went away people didn't like altering their laundry habits to suit the new automatic machines. Same is true with a front loader. If the front load machines were so all fired horrible how does that explain all the people that happen to love theirs? Are they just stupid? Or are they just able to make the adjustments to suit the new technology, to make it work. People only get get stinky washers if they don't make the needed adjustments in their habits.

Indeed a large part of modern design is aimed at reducing machine costs, and this of course can result in reliability problems. But in many cases newer design is better or simpler or uses better products like plastics (god forbid), which can end up being more reliable. To make a blanket statement that older is always better is flat wrong, just as assuming anything new is automatically better. Of course one can choose to like vintage things, to some degree ALL of us are here because of that love. I can see the value and appreciate an old washer, or car, or tube hifi amp but I really don't want any of them as a daily driver. I don't believe that they are superior overall. I'm a pragmatic Luddite...

I personally don't think that the government should mandate energy conservation. But this is only because I think that they shouldn't HAVE to! We should all just do whatever we can do to just use less before a mandate is required. Sure there will be those that say laundry uses only a tiny amount of the water or energy that humans consume, but that isn't a valid justification to allow to simply use more.

 

[murando531]

I see a lot of points made here that I completely agree with, from all contributors.

Six months ago, I hated the idea of an HE machine. That opinion and mindset was grown from witnessing and experiencing so-called machines, and not liking what I saw. Now fast-forward, and I have had an HE WP Fusion Oasis in my laundry room for almost five months (technically two of them, but that was simply an isolated issue.) Since having the Bravos XL, my view of HE washing machines has done a complete 180. As hard as it has been to wrap my head around, this machine DOES do a much better job using the low water level that it does. Adding water hinders its performance drastically. Along with that, I've found that it's taking forever to get through a box of detergent because of how little it actually requires to produce fresh clean laundry. I've yet to have a need to pretreat anything, whether it's underarm stains, or food spots, and whatever mishaps have become on my clothes. I've also yet to have a load that wasn't completely saturated in detergent mixture before the wash action even started, nor a load that didn't properly "bloom" and rollover as it should. It took a little while to adjust and to keep an open mind, but now I have absolutely no doubt that when I put clothes into the machine, they're going to come out clean, smelling fresh, well rinsed, and almost spun dry to the point that it takes no time at all for the dryer to be done. That last point, in and of itself, makes me love the machine, and makes a HUGE difference in energy use because the dryer runs 1/3 of the time it would with a traditional washer, and that's with the heat set to low!

That said, I can also see why some users would absolutely despise a top-loading washer that is labelled "HE". Of every high efficiency top loader on the market, the Whirlpool Oasis/Fusion Oasis design is the only one that I've been impressed with. I wouldn't take an LG/Samsung TL if it were given to me, I see Frigidaire's machine as nothing but a spinning ice cream bucket, and I wouldn't give the time of day to anything GE has built. There are countless videos, and even more declarations here on AW of the shortcomings of such designs. The main complaint being that A: the machine doesn't have a recirculation system (which in my opinion is a MUST for any top loading washer), and B: the load is simply swished back and forth, with little to no movement within the actual load itself. Neither has been the case with the Bravos.

To say that most people are against drastic change is true, but it is also true that in the last decade or so, to the people like us that actually pay attention to and care about the subject, change conditioned us to perceive the word as: "what quality that we love and need has been taken away?". It makes it that much more difficult to actually embrace the changes in front of us.

I think and hope that as the machines that clean our laundry and dishes evolve, there will always be choice. It's safe to say that with the variety of companies there are, despite growing fewer through time because of buyouts and mergers, there will at least always be a variety of designs to choose from. In the end it all boils down to what gets the job done properly, and what quirks and methods a person wants to choose to adjust to.