As FL's gain more and more market share in America (at least this seems to be the trend based on my observations) will TL's one day come to an end as we know them? Could they be done in by government mandates of water usage that simply could not be met by conventional top-loaders?
The era of traditional TL's(coming to and end?)
- Thread starter tuthill
- Start date
Help Support :
Top loading washing machines with central beaters (agitators), will indeed die a slow death if water and energy restrictions get anymore tighter in the United States. Top loaders need enough water to move through the laundry, too little and you are beating clothing against itself and the beater, which causes fabric damage, besides poor cleaning results. Of course the problem could be eliminated by using less than full wash loads, but setting the machine to it's highest water level, but that just prolongs wash day.
Problem right now is that washing machines like many other major appliances are more and more becoming "consumer" goods, rather than durable goods. It's rare to have a washing machine last five years, much less the ten or fifteen our grandmother's units had for a lifespan. With such short lifespans, consumers are not willing by and large, to pay huge sums of money for new washers, and that hurts R&D into keeping top loaders alive. No company is going to pour the resources into designing a top loader that can deal with energy regulations if they cannot forsee selling enough units in a period of time to recoup costs.
Problem right now is that washing machines like many other major appliances are more and more becoming "consumer" goods, rather than durable goods. It's rare to have a washing machine last five years, much less the ten or fifteen our grandmother's units had for a lifespan. With such short lifespans, consumers are not willing by and large, to pay huge sums of money for new washers, and that hurts R&D into keeping top loaders alive. No company is going to pour the resources into designing a top loader that can deal with energy regulations if they cannot forsee selling enough units in a period of time to recoup costs.
Interesting point about the "consumer" goods. It seems to me with all the technology we have today that a manufacturer could make a decent front loading machine that would last "forever." like a center dial 'tag. Cars in the 70's were never known for reliability but today we have cars that can easily log 200,000+ miles
twinniefan
Well-known member
cashbacks as well
Tuthill and Laundress,
As well as mandated water usage and energy efficiency standards,the state governments of Queensland,New South Wales and now South Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating and I think the same for energy.
Now the only top loading machine available here which is eligible for this rebate the the Fisher And Paykel Aquasmart models,no other top loader meets these standards so if you would like this rebate you most likely will go for a front loader,although funnily enough there is also a national standard which requires a minimum level of proper rinsing which actually some front loaders fail to meet,so what do governments want I wonder?.
Do these type of inducements exist in the U.S.A.as well?
Cheers.
Steve.
Tuthill and Laundress,
As well as mandated water usage and energy efficiency standards,the state governments of Queensland,New South Wales and now South Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating and I think the same for energy.
Now the only top loading machine available here which is eligible for this rebate the the Fisher And Paykel Aquasmart models,no other top loader meets these standards so if you would like this rebate you most likely will go for a front loader,although funnily enough there is also a national standard which requires a minimum level of proper rinsing which actually some front loaders fail to meet,so what do governments want I wonder?.
Do these type of inducements exist in the U.S.A.as well?
Cheers.
Steve.
Nope, aside from various rebates from appliance makers for products.
Where's my check?
~The state governments......Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating....
There were energy company rebates of $75 to $150 for front-loading washers not long ago when I bought mine.
~The state governments......Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating....
There were energy company rebates of $75 to $150 for front-loading washers not long ago when I bought mine.
In Maryland, Energy Star rated appliances were and might still be exempt form sales tax.
As for machines lasting longer than 5 years, Mieles have an excellent record for longevity. Many others will last a long time with proper care and maintenance. If a washer has been cared for and looks almost brand new, the owner is more likely to figure it is part of maintenance to replace a tub bearing and center seal in a 10 to 15 year old Maytag to keep it functioning instead of getting rid of it and buying new. Of course, those who do get rid of such machines provide great machines for rebuilders who will give them a thorough going over, stick a couple of parts in them and let them wash for another 10 or more years.
As for machines lasting longer than 5 years, Mieles have an excellent record for longevity. Many others will last a long time with proper care and maintenance. If a washer has been cared for and looks almost brand new, the owner is more likely to figure it is part of maintenance to replace a tub bearing and center seal in a 10 to 15 year old Maytag to keep it functioning instead of getting rid of it and buying new. Of course, those who do get rid of such machines provide great machines for rebuilders who will give them a thorough going over, stick a couple of parts in them and let them wash for another 10 or more years.
Does anyone remember.....
The reserve program when the Maytag Neptunes were first introduced????
The reserve program when the Maytag Neptunes were first introduced????
Another part
of the reservation program
of the reservation program
My local utility offers an Energy Star rebate program. I received individual rebates of $100-150 on two refrigerators, a dishwasher and my front-loading washer. Unfortunately, I've read in the local paper that this will be the final year such rebates are offered.
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
TLHA?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
TLHA?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...
The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?
France is the place where they're most common...
What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?
Locally, the power company and the water district offer rebates on certain FL washer models. Its a sliding scale based on how much water the machine uses.
~I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem...
It is my understanding that the interpretation of the American consumer maket at the time front-loaders made their latest "grand en-masse debut" was that we would not (easily) tolerate:
1- Small porhole/openings.
2- Small cpacity machines.
3- Slow time-consuming machines ("Time is money")
4- Inconvenience of bending/awkward loading.
5- Poor performace, lack of bleach and excessive temperatures. (Cultural norms are hard to change!!!!)
So the classic and well-known front-loader was Americanized.
(Super-size it for only 99 cents!).
A- Bigger drum and door. Outer cabinets reconfigured to be approximatley 27" x 27" (the existing "standard"), some even deeper.
B- A quick cycle/programme time of 30+/- minutes.
C- Hot and cold fill.
D- On-board heater only on TOL models, not mandatory.
E- Wattage/amperage draw tempered to work on our 120v circuitry/system.
[NOTE: washer and GAS dryer were traditionally configured to work on ONE 20a 120v circuit (1,920 watts where 120v x 20a x 0.80%)
(1,920w = 16a total, with a 10a washer + 6a dryer.
Here is a news-flash. Compacts and portables have not yet been hit with mainstream and name-brand front-load washers. So where is everyone with 21" square (53cm2) front-loaders? In the past essentially only Whirlpool made compacts domestically and slapped everyone else's badge on them.
To get 21" machines we may HAVE TO begin seeing HAFL-ers.
and that is not a bad thing! And to get them at 18" wide (40cm) would be even more fabulous!
It is my understanding that the interpretation of the American consumer maket at the time front-loaders made their latest "grand en-masse debut" was that we would not (easily) tolerate:
1- Small porhole/openings.
2- Small cpacity machines.
3- Slow time-consuming machines ("Time is money")
4- Inconvenience of bending/awkward loading.
5- Poor performace, lack of bleach and excessive temperatures. (Cultural norms are hard to change!!!!)
So the classic and well-known front-loader was Americanized.
(Super-size it for only 99 cents!).
A- Bigger drum and door. Outer cabinets reconfigured to be approximatley 27" x 27" (the existing "standard"), some even deeper.
B- A quick cycle/programme time of 30+/- minutes.
C- Hot and cold fill.
D- On-board heater only on TOL models, not mandatory.
E- Wattage/amperage draw tempered to work on our 120v circuitry/system.
[NOTE: washer and GAS dryer were traditionally configured to work on ONE 20a 120v circuit (1,920 watts where 120v x 20a x 0.80%)
(1,920w = 16a total, with a 10a washer + 6a dryer.
Here is a news-flash. Compacts and portables have not yet been hit with mainstream and name-brand front-load washers. So where is everyone with 21" square (53cm2) front-loaders? In the past essentially only Whirlpool made compacts domestically and slapped everyone else's badge on them.
To get 21" machines we may HAVE TO begin seeing HAFL-ers.
and that is not a bad thing! And to get them at 18" wide (40cm) would be even more fabulous!
That's the Neptune that I have since new but did not go on there reservation list. Just went into the local Maytag dealer not home depot, won't buy appliances from them, I like to deal with the local guy. What I was wondering was that when I purchased my Neptune, it came with a video tape of the machine and how to use it. Do the new machines come with a dvd on the proper usage of their new machine?
Jon
Jon
laundramatt
New member
Not as long as I have breath in my lungs and enough money to buy toploaders!!!
I am always interested to know where governments get the figures for their mandates from. Are they decided on best overall pactice and performance outcomes for consumers, or some kind of arbitrary consensus that only supports their agendas? Lets face it, it is clear that their priority isn't clean, well rinsed laundry nowadays, but to get people to save water and energy by hook or by crook and largely for their own political/selfish reasons.
Here in Australia, the rebate that is paid to consumers actually comes out of their own pockets anyway. Considering the relative high cost of TOL front loaders, it is a paltry sum. With the low-end front loaders it is a waste of money and as environmentally sensible as leaded petrol. So, here people are being hoodwinked into believing that they are getting a financial reward for being environmentally pro-active. What it really means is that they are motivated into buying products that may not even be what they want, that exact a much higher total cost to the environment than Australian made top loaders and it is pro-actively helping the decline of our domestic white goods industry. Last, but not least, here in Australia consumer tests now show that many front loaders, which are very highly rated for utility savings, actually underperform in overall terms.
I guess if governments mandate variety out of existence, people will become used to the existing standard of the day and not notice any resulting decline in performance.
Now, vivalavatrice asks why we don't just change to horizontal axis top loaders, where we should get the best of both worlds. If that were the case, why are manufacturers continuing to develop new vertical axis designs and technologies? Because the answer to your question, vivalavatrice, is no. A lot of the reasons for which people reject horizontal axis machines are still there. Over recent years there have been far more interesting design developments for vertical axis machines than front loaders. With top loaders, designers have been thinking a little more outside the square to achieve environmental standards it seems. Plus, they still offer consumers the choice between utility saving programs and standard operation. Anything that has been somewhat revolutionary in European washer design of late, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I also don't think that it is appropriate or good business practice to impose European washer design standards on the rest of the world.
Anyway, I don't think that the time has come to write off vertical axis washers just yet. It is clear that there are people who are convinced that they should be wiped off the face of this earth, but what do they know?
Here in Australia, the rebate that is paid to consumers actually comes out of their own pockets anyway. Considering the relative high cost of TOL front loaders, it is a paltry sum. With the low-end front loaders it is a waste of money and as environmentally sensible as leaded petrol. So, here people are being hoodwinked into believing that they are getting a financial reward for being environmentally pro-active. What it really means is that they are motivated into buying products that may not even be what they want, that exact a much higher total cost to the environment than Australian made top loaders and it is pro-actively helping the decline of our domestic white goods industry. Last, but not least, here in Australia consumer tests now show that many front loaders, which are very highly rated for utility savings, actually underperform in overall terms.
I guess if governments mandate variety out of existence, people will become used to the existing standard of the day and not notice any resulting decline in performance.
Now, vivalavatrice asks why we don't just change to horizontal axis top loaders, where we should get the best of both worlds. If that were the case, why are manufacturers continuing to develop new vertical axis designs and technologies? Because the answer to your question, vivalavatrice, is no. A lot of the reasons for which people reject horizontal axis machines are still there. Over recent years there have been far more interesting design developments for vertical axis machines than front loaders. With top loaders, designers have been thinking a little more outside the square to achieve environmental standards it seems. Plus, they still offer consumers the choice between utility saving programs and standard operation. Anything that has been somewhat revolutionary in European washer design of late, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I also don't think that it is appropriate or good business practice to impose European washer design standards on the rest of the world.
Anyway, I don't think that the time has come to write off vertical axis washers just yet. It is clear that there are people who are convinced that they should be wiped off the face of this earth, but what do they know?
Problem with vertical axis top loaders grows as one tries to design uber sized units that hold what Americans consider "standard" capacity for a top loading washing machine, about 18lbs. Consumer Reports panned Staber's unit because of "capacity" issues.
There are great washing machines out there, both top loading and front loading that have more features than any of us could ever want, and are built for the duration; problem is they are mainly commercial units that would set one back several thousand, which is what a domestic washer would cost built to those specs. Sadly Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time getting their heads around washing machines that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
There are great washing machines out there, both top loading and front loading that have more features than any of us could ever want, and are built for the duration; problem is they are mainly commercial units that would set one back several thousand, which is what a domestic washer would cost built to those specs. Sadly Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time getting their heads around washing machines that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time gett
...that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Why does that come as a suprise? For decades American consumers have come to expect quality products at very reasonable prices. Naturally, many older people, who still know about quality are lamenting the new direction of (non) durables.
This is what I find so very fascinating. People will squawk on about the environment, energy, carbons and utilities and all that jazz, but nobody says a word about the environmental cost of globalization and its cheap and nasty throwaway crap. Now when we pay top $$$s we don't even have any guarantees that we are getting top quality. My case in point is my four year old 63 inch Samsung rear projection tele. I paid $6000 for it and had nothing but trouble. They don't even make parts for it anymore. So, next time it goes bung that'll probably be the end of it, even though it is still under extended warranty.
At least I know that my Speed Queen washer is made in the good old US of A and built to last.
...that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.
Why does that come as a suprise? For decades American consumers have come to expect quality products at very reasonable prices. Naturally, many older people, who still know about quality are lamenting the new direction of (non) durables.
This is what I find so very fascinating. People will squawk on about the environment, energy, carbons and utilities and all that jazz, but nobody says a word about the environmental cost of globalization and its cheap and nasty throwaway crap. Now when we pay top $$$s we don't even have any guarantees that we are getting top quality. My case in point is my four year old 63 inch Samsung rear projection tele. I paid $6000 for it and had nothing but trouble. They don't even make parts for it anymore. So, next time it goes bung that'll probably be the end of it, even though it is still under extended warranty.
At least I know that my Speed Queen washer is made in the good old US of A and built to last.
Similar threads
