The Population "Elephant" has got me down.

[neptunebob]

I wanted to discuss an issue that is critical to our future. I am interested in improving our environment and most of us here are also. Recently, I went to a family reunion in Kansas. Does anyone here actually enjoy those events that much? Anyway, I was dismayed to find that all the steps I take to protect the environment are undone by all the people who have too many kids. Since some of them know how I feel about this issue I get referred to a grouch, must not like kids, I need a wife, or that I do not "know how it works in a marriage"

People are uncomfortable discussing family planning, probably because it involves sex. But I find that a lot of my relatives just make excuses for all those kids: "He wants it", "You never know when its the right moment", "It was cold and boring that night".

It just seems that past a certain age, people just talk about kids and marriage and breeding and what a bore that is to me. Anyone else find this?

P.S. Robert, you can remove if too controversial, I just feel a need to rant.

 

[polkanut]

But,

Without children your family would eventually die out.

 

[tristarcxl]

Uhhh...

From what I just read in your post, you ARE a grouch. You can have your own ideas and agenda, but you can't simply force your ideas down everyone else's throats unwillingly. When you do that, people react to you in a VERY negative way! Your relatives are reacting to you like any other normal person would.

 

[qsd-dan]

I feel (and voice) the same opinions as yourself, Bob. You're not alone!

With overpopulation and open borders being huge issues this day in age, I really think we should begin to adopt and force China's law and limit on 2 children. Most all households have a hard time making ends meet with just 2 children, why make it any harder? I would lift this law on households with an income of 200K or more, but you better be able to prove that you can provide both care and attention to those children instead of being raised by a Nanny. Plus, I see WAY too many parents who should NEVER have been parents!!!

Think of all of the money saved on Welfare!!!! (Ok, now we're REALLY getting controversial!! LOL!!!!)

I'm doing my part by having no children, driving an economical car, recycling, ect. But, I'll be damned if I ever stop using or get rid of my vintage Maytags!!! Hey, everybody's got to have a vice, and it's still a legal vice at that

 

[appnut]

I think by in large, it is an individual decision as to how many children a family has, either fully intended or not completely intended.

 

[maytagbear]

Your presence at

family gatherings is entirely OPTIONAL!

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[jeffg]

Long-term population projections actually look pretty good, with most regions expected to have flat (moreless) or even negative growth between now and 2150. So at least right here and right now, large families do not pose a threat to anyone else's existence.

Also, the deathgrip that Big Oil has had on the developed world for the last century is finally coming to an end, and we can get on with replacing our energy and agriculture systems with ones that are both clean and renewable. No one knows what technologies, inventions and discoveries are coming down the pike, but we do know lots of people back in the 1960's and 70's predicted dire catastrophe once global population reached four or five billion. We're at six already, but growth rates have been substantially declining every decade since 1960:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762181.html

 

[panthera]

Bob,

For what it is worth: Friends are people you choose to love. Family are people you either love or hate.

No choice given.

I don't think you are a grouch. When confronted by the mentality of my sibling and his "they breed like rabbits" side of the family, (bone-headed fundamentalist Christian, paleo-con Conservative, Amerika über alles, the entire group) I tend to wander off with all the dawgs and cats muttering "Malthus was right, this can not end well".

And on the really dark days - like Christmas or July 4th, I comfort myself by thinking: At least I can read.

 

[toggleswitch2]

A friend of mine, who is Columbian by birth, was telling me that in South America there is often conscious "over-breeding" so that the population of "X" country will exceed that of "Y" country. Because, clearly X country is superior to Y country.

Drives him nuts that Anglo-phones in the USA don't know/see/understand the "hierarchy" of the countries there.

Antother issue is that the head of the army is only as powerful as the number of soliers he has. The RC church is not about to say (in poor countries): "have only as many as you can afford to feed and educate and clothe" rather than "family planning is a sin".

 

[dblrinz]

NeptuneBob

I would like to add my perspective, though I am not sure if it speaks to your Elephant...

My partner and I have adopted two children - One from Guatemala (he is 5 now) and the other from here in Pittsburgh (he is 2) - We did this due to our own selfishness of wanting a family. We are very blessed and fortunate that apart from a self-employed type of part-time job I am able to stay at home with our kids.

In my experience to date I have learned that it takes quite a lot of energy and thought to raise children. Especially if you are expecting to raise contributing members of society. We have given amazing amounts of energy and time to decisions that prior to kids I would have thought took little attention. Though our lives don't revolve solely around our kids, kids by nature take a front and center position in your lives. I say this because if you would meet us, we would talk quite a lot about our kids. We don't mean to do so all the time, but they are a huge part of our lives and effect almost all decisions...ie...Had I been a member of AW.org prior to kids, I would have a "fleet" of washing machines by now. Currently I can't afford to do that as I need to be sure that resources are available for schooling, child care, and the numerous items that come along with having the kids.

As far as our family planning goes - We have two kids because of our ages (I am 37 and my partner is 45)AND that is what we can comfortably afford. Many people have many reasons for their choice to have kids and number that they choose to have. I personally would not have gone beyond 3 as I feel that is the number I could have raised in the manner that I see fit.

Finally, I have learned that kids are "the great equalizer." Many people who before kids felt that they didn't have anything in common with us have now started to talk to us more as we have something in common - raising kids. This may seem offensive, but I realized that many people stay in their comfort zone and a large commonality such as kids allows for them to have a discussion with you without stepping out of the zone...Much like I indulge the majority of my washer love on this website rather than even with some of my closest friends...They all know I love laundry and washers, but not which ones and to what extent.

Bob - Maybe this group of relatives feel they have nothing in common with each other except their children so they stick with that topic to make it through the reunion. I know that doesn't make it easier for you, but they very possibly are trying to make the situation easy for them. Also, if you are asking them about their family planning, it may be offending them. It can be to many a sensitive subject like money, religion, and politics.

 

[yogitunes]

You all touch excellent points....

WE too have adopted twins (9years old), and currently have 3 foster in our home, given a choice we are willing to adopt 5 total and keep it like that, for those of you who adopt or foster have to hold yourself on a higher level or should I say your forced to have a better/safe/perfect/immaculate/spot free/every corner padded type home in order to house these individuals that need homes. UNLIKE the home they come from, and thats what I think upsets some people when they SEE a certain family environment, with too many kids, no discipline, no control, running wild, and yet these people are allowed to "pop" out babies like an assembly line, and NO were not gonna touch the welfare system, but what gets you angry, is that they have maybe 4 kids now, then another one, and return to welfare for an "increase" to afford the next one...how many of you out there can go to your BOSS when you're having another kid and say I need a raise cause I'm having another kid, and thank GOD for the foster system to take care of the kids from parents who should not be having kids in the first place. It's not about being a grouch, it's just sometimes life doesn't play fair. I have a niece who has a kid and uses him as a pawn, to get money and gifts from the family, otherwise you won't get to visit with him, I would need a whole new thread for her alone, but you get my drift, and seeing this, you wonder why she is allowed to have children in the first place! But for th most part you know how may of these children may end up and then who's problem does it become....the TAXPAYER one way or another....YOU!

 

[dblrinz]

Yogi - This is not to disagree - I do agree that the system

BUT - In Guatemala there is no infrastructure to help support poor families with children so some are left abandoned to die...MANY are not educated enough to use or even know about birth control. Guat. was an HUGE eye opener for me!

I hate when children are used as pawns/excuses for adults in this country...I realize that there are those even in this country who are not educated enough to know better, but a lot do know better and still use the system because it is easier and they can...

In the end, I am glad that there is a system so that kids are cared for...AND yes the expense is all of ours to burden.

 

[danemodsandy]

I Wish:

That more people who want children would consider adopting instead of having biological ones. And I wish more people who want to adopt would take a good hard look at the "unpopular" children available - the ones who are a little older, or not so cute, or male, or minority or mixed-race. Not every child available for adoption is a blonde, blue-eyed Caucasian baby girl still in arms. That does not make those children less worthwhile as human beings.

Children are everywhere, and not all of them have good, stable loving homes. It is a wonderful thing to have a biological child and give it a good start in life. IMHO, it's even more wonderful to take in a child who has had a bad start in life, and help to turn that situation around.

You get the kid you claim to want, you do not add to the population burden, and you help a human being who may need your assistance very desperately. Children are not about the emotional convenience of their parents, and a lot of people who are having kids they can't really raise well need to learn that. The gratification of having a sweet little baby soon turns into great expense, emotional turmoil and a responsibility greater than almost any other. People who choose to take all that on by means of adoption are halfway to sainthood, if you ask me.

 

[yogitunes]

I wouldn't give mine up for the world...

My two are Puerto Rican by nationality, that makes no difference, a big dream for me would to have about 10 or so children of all races for the diversity of the world that we are all one...

but I was also shocked over a few family and friends who are against me adopting these kids, and adding them to my home and family and taking on my family name. I must be stupid that this exist in todays society, these kids need help, and I am happy I have the resouces to do this, more enjoyment than I can explain, my goal is to adopt at least 3 or 4 more, thats the limit an adoptive home can have, ashame considering I have 7 bedrooms, but I also have an abundance of family and friends, who are all Aunts/Uncles to them all, who are a big help with these little guys...I'm not allowed to discuss what happened to my 2 before the came to us...but they have been thru HELL and we got them when they were 4...so yes, We spoil them all rotten, and I know in my mind that this is bad, but they just need a regular childhood as much as possible, and they have paid a terrible price for things a child should never go thru, I'm actully starting to tear up as I type this, cause I do so much and can't do more, to erase their past, you just don't know....but thanks for listening

You know what bites...theres another niece who is against me adopting and fostering outside my race, and she's an actual Social Worker for these children in another county, we've had arguments, she does not need to be like this, or in a job position with this frame of thinking!

but like I said earlier, WE have to run a PERFECT home (and yes, they do monthy inspections, one inspector claimed my house was TOO clean, like a picture in a magazine, TOO sterile, I think that was a compliment, and funny when they seen all 3 sets of washer/dryer in the basement, Hey!...with 5 kids...I got some laundry...lol) in order to help these children, but the home they come from doesn't have to follow any guide lines....

Again, thanks for letting me BEAM about my children!..I didn't mean to ramble on....take care

 

[kenmoreforever]

How many Cocaine addicted babies should one Mother be allowed to have on Medicaid, which you and I pay for by the way, before her stupid ass is placed in jail? I personally have know quite a few that have had at least 2 such babies and no more than 3 on one of them. not one thing, other than the taking of the baby to foster care, which all these so called Moms to be's were tickled pink over the notion that they didnt have to take reponsibility for the babies. Just where is the line drawn here? Then personally I have seen these new moms eventually get the children back for whatever reason, only to have food stamps poured upon them as if they were Skittles. Which they take no time in procuring buyers of these food stamp bebefits in order to pay for their current Cocaine habit, then the cirle is once again repeated. Cause afterall, one that is high on cocaine does not careth with whom they lieth down with.

 

[kenmoreforever]

Amen,Possums 3 Verseth 67(the gospel according to Squidbillies, Season 2)

 

[kenmoreforever]

Too harsh there Moderator? OK, I'll tone it down a few notches. My question is " How many is too many children to be born to same mother that are addicted to cocaine?" Before the mother is placed in jail for child endangerment? And when she does get said child back, she is awarded with food stamps and WIC vouchers. Which she promptly turns into cash to fuel her current cocaine addiction? just wondered is all. I know its not the childs fault but what about 3 strikes ur out like on felonies? Shouldnt this be a felony?

 

[jeffg]

News flash, Keith: we reformed our welfare system back in 1996. This reform was so substantial, it satisfied all but the most rabid supply-siders on this issue.

What has the result been? The largest budget deficits in U.S. history.

Gee, apparently all those 'crack moms squirting out babies' weren't costing us that much, were they?

Also, it's been my experience that people who regurgitate the evil right-wing drivel you do, have never even set foot in a county social services department. They've never talked to the people who're there for help, listened to their stories or, God forbid, tried to empathize with them.

 

[yogitunes]

Keith is very right on the money....

last year I had 4 boys, all brothers, cocaine addicted mother and father, after kids were taken away, she became pregnant AGAIN, and they asked us to take this one when it was born, WHERE DOES IT STOP?, and YES, these children were returned to them, neither parent works, the state has provided them with a NEW home, FULLY FURNISHED, all utilities paid, and a mini-van, not to mention food stamps, welfare, and medical for them all, and the state thought it was in the best interest for the children to return home, both parents test positive for drugs before the kids went home...and you can't do a thing about it...they have to be treated with respect and they have more rights than you or I....believe it, it's TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!