Vintage Cascade versus Fryer Boil Out

[Marky_Mark]

Hi guys

I'm only familiar with modern Cascade detergents and Fryer Boil Out; I never had the opportunity to try the original Cascade chlorinated powder.

Can anyone who has used both tell me if the old, chlorinated Cascade powder was identical to Boil Out? Do they smell the same, look the same, perform the same, suds the same, etc?

I believe the ingredients are the same, but perhaps that doesn't tell the whole story. How does your experience of the two compare?

Mark

 

[spiralator60]

Original Cascade

Hi Mark,

My comments are based on the powder products available and formulated for use throughout North America. There were/are formulations sold specifically addressed to water conditions in different regions, so some consumers may have or have had different experiences and results for things like sudsing and performance for that reason.

One difference between the old and new Cascade, and the Fryer Boil Out, is that the old Cascade powder had a pine scent that was obvious but not overpowering. This was, to some, much like the scent that the old Comet cleanser also had - when it was a P&G product. The Boil Out does not appear to have this pine scent. There was also a lemon scent that was sold, as there was a time when lemons were the cleaning fragrance of the day among manufacturers.

The older versions were formulated during a time when the "Normal" dishwasher cycle selections were generally shorter compared to what they are presently, and also when the force of the water sprayed within many machines was a little stronger than what most dishwashers offer today. Also, the hot water temperature that many people used in automatic dish and clothes washing was higher than the 120 degrees (or lower) F than is currently presented as "hot." Many of us here well remember instruction manuals recommending 140 degree F or higher as what a water heater should provide for optimal cleaning on a hot water setting. It is also true that some dishwashers in past years heated water to near or above scalding temperatures during operation.

For some or many of us here, the performances of the classic product and the current Fryer Boil Out (both containing phosphates) have closely matched each other in hard water condition usage. I would like to hear what others have to say about product performance in soft or softened water.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hey Darryl. Thanks so much for the info.

The reason I ask is that I have plenty of experience of using Boil Out in my vintage (and modern) dishwashers and I was wondering if my current experience is equal to how it would have been "back in the day" when these machines were new and people used Cascade powder.

Many people on AW have memories of using these machines with those traditional detergents, whereas I don't have any experience of that. So it's great to know that when I use Boil Out, I am getting the authentic vintage experience, minus the pine or lemon scent!

I do have a water softener, but you've got me thinking now.......as an experiment, I will try running my dishwashers on hard water (13 GPG) to see what happens.

Thank you very much. Hope all is well with you and Thomas,
Mark

P.S. Perhaps I could add a small drop of Pine-Sol for the realistic odour too

 

[mark_wpduet]

My memories of the Boxes of automatic dishwasher detergent were they all pretty much smelled the same to me with slight differences. (yes, sort of like Comet cleanser)..but they all performed great. My grandma would buy whatever was on sale. Sunlight, Cascade, Electrosol.. I can't remember but back then I think that's all there was (just the boxes of powder) no other form.. At some point I think GEL came along..It's so vague to me .. maybe mid 1980s

Fryer boil out reminds me of the way they smelled. I don't ever remember a "pine" smell.. Maybe it was pine or lemon but they were all pretty much overpowered by the chlorine

Everything on the market worked great up until the point where they started taking out phosphates.. there was a window of time where any dish detergent you bought was pretty bad.. I think they had to keep going back to the drawing board several times.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

cascade

When was their first rinse aid released? I have never seen them advertise a rinse aid until later in 2004 during the time they sold Cascade with phosphates.

 

[launderess]

First automatic dishwashing detergents (meaning just that and not soap) were not much different than Hytron and other products for commercial ware washing machines. High pH, chlorine bleach and brute force of very not (at least 140 degrees F) did most of the work.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREADM.cgi?91179_6

Keeping soils in suspension wasn't a huge issue because early domestic dishwashers had multiple short cycles. Each fresh change of water took away muck and grease so subsequent wash was had less to cope with on that score. Multiple rinses in theory ensured yibble free dishes, well that was the plan....

My GE Mobile Maid does W-R-W-R-R-D and is done and dusted in about 30 minutes give or take.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hi Mark. Thanks, yes I can definitely notice the chlorine -- especially during the wash if the dishwasher has a vent that is permanently open.

Launderess, thanks for chiming in! Hytron is one of the few I haven't yet tried.

How sudsy was the original Cascade powder? Surprisingly, Boil Out has produced a lot of suds on some occasions, perhaps due to an overdose and/or insufficient food soils. The presence of suds doesn't present a problem in some machines, such as the KDS-18 or the modern Miele, but the WP PowerClean is probably the worst and will leak. Thanks to Tomturbomatic's posts, I have tried simeticone and it does prevent suds. I am not sure yet, but I think the suds occur regardless of whether the water is hard or soft.

Mark

 

[launderess]

" The presence of suds doesn't present a problem in some machines"

Now that's where rubber meets road between vintage and modern dishwashers vis-a-vis detergents.

One has to dose modern automatic dishwashing detergents carefully in GE Mobile Maid or there's too much froth which she does not like. In fact even using a whole DW tab usually requires adding some sort of anti-foam (I keep type of silicone on hand for just those sort of occasions) agent.

Now one would think since GE Mobile Maid uses copious amounts of water compared to modern machines dosage of product wouldn't be an issue. Fact that it often can be so tells me automatic DW detergents around when these machines first hit market must have been formulated differently.

Have several canisters of Ecolab "metal safe" DW detergent. Stuff is largely sodium metasilicate, sodium carbonate with bit of surfactants. Makes nearly nil suds but will dissolve oils, soils and muck like nobody's business.

Have used it to soak broiler or roasting pans full of worse heavy oil, grease, food, etc... and it never fails to work a treat.

Here is P&G's patent application for DW detergent from 1987.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4714562A/en

Oldest formula for Cascade can find online is for "with Sheeting Action" from 1996. It is a remarkably simple formula.

https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/3720/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Cascade%20with%20Sheeting%20Action-Old%20Product/span>/16-003-025

Compared to Cascade "Pure Rinse" which entered market in 2008.

https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/8272/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Cascade%20Pure%20Rinse%20Automatic%20Dishwasher%20Detergent%20Powder,%20All%20Scents-Old%20Product/span>/16-030-003

Cascade Complete from 2012.

https://www.whatsinproducts.com/types/type_detail/1/12339/standard/span style="color:#a9a9a9;">Cascade%20Complete%20Dishwasher%20Detergent%20Powder-Old%20Product/span>/16-030-487

Cascade Fryer Boil Out contains: Chemical Compound: Phosphate; Sodium Carbonate; Sodium Silicate; Sodium Dichloro-S-Triazinet rione Dihydrate; Non-ionic Surfactant; Chlorine Bleach Suds Control

SDS: https://www.restockit.com/pdfs/MSDS/PGC59097.pdf

Previous thread on matter from archives: https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?52631
[this post was last edited: 2/17/2024-13:19]

 

[launderess]

Again Hytron is pretty basic as automatic dishwashing or ware washing detergents go.

"Hytron® are sodium carbonate, water softening agents, sodium citrate, sodium silicates, antiredeposition agents, rinse additive, sodium dichloroisocyanurate, and sodium tripolyphosphate*."

Stearns [ST-464] Hytron Chlorinated Automatic Dishwasher Detergent - 10 lb. Tub - Commercial Dishwashing Detergent - UnoClean

 

[Marky_Mark]

Thanks for posting those links and telling us about your experience with the mighty Mobile Maid, Launderess. The ingredients lists are interesting and I have seen some of those before, including the AW link you posted. The patent was interesting to see too.

So it sounds like Boil Out does then appear to be essentially the same product as the original Cascade, without the added scent. This is ultimately what I wanted to know -- if using these machine with Boil Out is an accurate representation of what it would have been like back when these machines were new. I don't use Boil Out often, but when I do, it does indeed sound like I am getting pretty much the authentic vintage experience.

Thank you
Mark

 

[panasonicvac]

Didn't the Fryer Boil Out get discontinued not too long ago?

 

[Marky_Mark]

Hi Alex. It may have been discontinued but it's still currently being sold and fortunately I have a stash. There are also equivalent products available in Europe, such as Finish Professional powder and Sun Professional powder, both of which contain 30% phosphate and chlorine bleach.

It's interesting to try running these older machines using the conventional detergent that they were designed for. That's not to say that modern detergents don't work as well (or better) in these machines.

Mark

 

[logixx]

Mark, Miele also sell chlorinated liquid detergent as part of their Professional range of cleaning products. Both the chlorine as well as the oxygen bleach products have phosphate in them (though not all).

Haven't seen any of these in the UK shop, though.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Thanks!  I did buy a couple of the Miele Professional dishwasher detergents when I lived in Spain for use in my Miele G550.  My local Miele dealer in Spain was able to order me anything I wanted.  I don't know about the UK though.

 

[launderess]

Summing Things Up With "Calgon" Connection...

Many likely have long forgot about one of the first detergents for domestic automatic dishwashers; Calgonite.

Hagen Hall invented a water softener comprised of complex phosphates (STPP, etc...) that was used widely during years leading up to and during WWII and afterwards.

One use of this product was in homes on wash day to solve issues using hard water and soap. We all know this product as "Calgon" (get it? CALcium GONe...).

Early one when only thing available for automatic dishwashers were soap based products Hagen Hall flogged their phosphate laden products (sold under names such as CalGo, etc...) to cope with issue of residue that came with using soap to wash anything really.

For early ware washing or automatic dishwashing detergents (among other purposes) things came together with a simple (but powerfully potentially corrosive) formula;
sodium metasilicate, sodium dichloroisocyanurate, phosphates and perhaps washing soda and bit of surfactants. For automatic dishwasher or ware washing equipment it would take perfection of low to nil frothing non-inonic surfactants.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?39098

Recommended dosage of STPP for wash or washing up water is to add enough that water becomes "slippery". Well that is what "Calgon" or "Calgonite" brought to automatic dishwasher detergent party. It's also one reason why virtually all such products also contained phosphates. Even as federal or local governments were going after phosphates in laundry detergents for a while they left automatic dishwashing products alone.

Phosphate levels did come down in automatic dishwashing detergents, but unlike say for laundry there just wasn't an easy or complete replacement for what phosphates do in terms of automatic dishwashing. Since we're talking about hygiene and or public health (ware washing) allowances had to be and were made.



Remember "the Spot Maker"?



Notice how that Calgonite spot goes on about "soft water..." Well what do you think made that water soft? Phosphates, that's what.

 

[murando531]

A few years ago a ordered a box of Cascade Boil Out to use as a prewash "booster". If I recall correctly, I read a member's post here that while it should be safe in an older machine with quicker cycles such as my PowerClean, it wouldn't be for a modern machine with long main wash portions and lower temperatures, because the chemicals may prove too harsh in the long term for the seals and rack coatings, so I never used it in the new machines.

I was using it for a while until I noticed the ends of several of the tines on my PowerClean racks were starting to get that dreaded rust circle on the tips, as well as a spot that started swelling towards the back of the top rack, and that's when I stopped using it all together. I eventually used it up as a presoak for heavily greasy pans and things like the grill grates, but I was afraid to ever put it into my 20 year old machine that parts are hard enough to find as it is. To this day the racks just don't feel as smooth as they always did, and I've always felt that was the culprit.

Now this is just my anecdotal experience and it could be completely unrelated, but to me it wasn't worth the risk in the long run. It could have even been the chlorine content alone that accelerated what was already an issue on the coatings that I hadn't noticed yet. There was a period in the late 00s when phosphates were removed and detergents of all forms were terrible. Cascade Complete pacs even stripped the anodized finish off a couple of my pans (that I had forbidden to go in the machine to begin with, so somebody got a stern talking to about that). But since then, it seems they've figured it out, and I've never had problems with dish loads getting clean even with the Normal cycle on the PowerClean, nor any of the modern machines.

 

[launderess]

Chlorine bleach in all forms is corrosive.

Seem to recall discussions (maybe around GE Mobile Maid dishwashers?) that use of chlorine bleach in dw detergents hastened deterioration of coating on racks and or Plastisol interior of tubs.

 

[tomturbomatic]

I remember Cascade before it had chlorine in the formula and the dishwasher interiors of constant users had a faint green cast to them and the ever present pine fragrance.

 

[launderess]

In 1980's P&G brought in an African-American scientist who would go on to solve problem of Cascade dw detergent staining dw interiors and dishes. His formula was pretty much basis for Cascade dw detergent as most know.

Dennis W. Weatherby's was granted a patent for new formula which proved a success.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4714562A/en

https://blackmail4u.com/2023/02/17/dennis-weatherby-developer-of-cascade-dish-detergent-chemical-formula/