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Chetlaham

Chetlaham

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Has anyone else here seeded 240 volt outlets around their home? I'm encouraging all AW.org members to do this is if you haven't already. You have to try it, you must try it, you don't know what you're missing. Use them a few times and you won't go back. In fact you'll find yourself installing more in the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom and garage.

 

A two pole 15 amp breaker, some 14-2, a few old work boxes and some genuine schuko sockets off of ebay is all you need.

 

Once installed the good stuff can be found here :)

 

https://www.eastwestintl.com/
 

 

Amazon and Amazon international sites are another great place to order 230 volt vacuums, coffee makers, griddles, skillets, toasters, rice cookers, kettles, bread makers, night lights, heating blankets, hair dryers, curlers, table and floor lamps, radiators, table fans, steamers, irons, just for beginners.

 

 

 

 

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You can actually get nicer looking Legrand Schuko or French (also compatible) outlets.

They've a range called Céliane, which have a front cover that retracts as the plug goes in and are also fully child proof etc (required in French norms)

The ground is done with a pin on these (goes into the hole on the front of your common CEE 7/7 grounded plug)

Same rating, 16 amps. Accept the same plugs as Schuko (other than very old Schuko plugs which don't have a hole for the French ground. These aren't very common anymore)[this post was last edited: 7/25/2021-16:29]

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No real practical advantage, other than the French design is polarised (using the grounding pin) and has child proofing. It's mostly just a décor advantage beyond that.

There are umpteen designs of Schuko outlets too.

We don't use CEE 7/X outlets here. They are technically allowed (in Ireland, not the UK), but you'll only ever really find them in hotel rooms where they might add one or two near the dressing table / desk alongside the regular Irish / UK type.

The main reason is continental European visitors have a tendency to try to jam plugs into the outlets. The flat 'Europlug' will fit, if you jimmy open the shutters, but it's not advised and can damage the outlet. So it often saves a lot of maintenance and is a handy convenience for tourists I guess.

There'd be little point in you using these, as they're a UK/Ireland and a few other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc only.

Same 230V 50Hz system - just different outlets and plugs.

We're even facing a problem in Ireland after Brexit, as it's possible the UK will wander away from CE approvals, which could render a whole load of electrical accessories illegal to use here.

So I guess we could be moving back to 'schuko' (which was used here until the early 1960s!)

---

I'm assuming you're connecting that to a US 240V hot-to-hot supply?

Schuko was originally designed with the idea that you could have two hots. There were older European systems using 127V/220V 50Hz 'split phase' supplies, which were quite similar in design to the current 120/240V 60Hz system.

All European appliances are designed on the basis of hot / neutral being switchable so having two hots shouldn't really matter at all.

240V is likely to be somewhat close to the upper end of the tolerance of European appliances, but since the old UK spec was 240V it's within the range for nominally 230V appliances.

Frequency might cause you some issues, but not with very many appliances.[this post was last edited: 7/25/2021-16:35]

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Indeed- two hots and a ground. This is one of the reasons I went with mainland schuko, and order schuko appliances when I can, no need to worry about polarity. 

 

Regarding voltage you are correct, though fortunately I'm reading that +10%-6% of 230 volts is allowed:

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/main-voltage
 

So 110% of 230 is 253 volts. The highest around here tends to reach 245. Technically it could go as high as 250, but never seen that.

 

The frequency can make a difference, though I've come to find out that usually does not matter. 
 
Anything made for the U.K. market is the same as elsewhere in Europe, other than the plug. Brexit could in theory change that, but the U.K. remains part of CENELEC and the IEC so that’s very unlikely.

The polarity of U.K./Irish outlets matters a lot because the fuse in the plug should be on the live pin, but the appliances are identical spec to anywhere else in Europe and are polarity agnostic in reality.

Once the polarity of the socket outlet is correct, the 13 amp (or whatever lower rating is selected) fuse will be on the correct side of the circuit.

The primary purpose of the fuse is the protect the appliance cord, as the U.K. uses 32 amp final ring circuits to feed outlets. If they’re on a 15amp circuit, there’s little risk, but you could potentially exceed their 13amp maximum load. That being said, they very conservative designs that are nearly as chunky as a US dryer plug!

However, you can see why using a U.K. type plug with two live/hot terminals would be rather risky, as the fusing might not work as intended.

The lower rates fuses (most commonly 3 amp) are just there for extra safety and allowed very fine lamp cords and so on. Since the 1970s such cords aren’t sold. Lamps would have exactly the same cords as used with continental plugs.

Rings are actually not used very much here in Ireland, to the point that the current regulations here require multiple 20amp radials in kitchen and utility room type areas where high loads likely. The logic of that is that clustering appliances near one side of a ring is potentially problematic.

Generally in the rest of the house we usually 16 or 20 amp radial serving outlets in each room and 6 or 10amp radials for lighting. Everything has to be on RCDs (often a combined breaker and GFCI module called an RCBO) and recent regs now also require arc fault detection in sleeping areas, or areas prone to fire risks.

Schuko type outlets on the continent usually sit on 16 or 20 amp radials, much like US outlets.

*** 120V appliances in a 230V country ***

That’s not as easy as the other way around as there’s no handy source or 120V in the EU, U.K., Australia or NZ etc. Buildings are provided with 230V on the live (hot) and a neutral that’s typically at 0V and bonded to ground.

In the North American system buildings are fed with two lives / hots at 120V and a neural at 0V
The two live wires are tapped at the transformer such that if you connect between them you get a potential difference (Voltage) of 240V. So it’s relatively simple to obtain 230V (240V) on their systems.

In Britain and Ireland we use 110V 50Hz from a portable centre tapped transformer for power tools used on site. This is different to US voltage. It’s roughly 55V to ground from each side of the circuit, with no neural. The logic of this is personal protection of people working with power tools in rough or wet areas. It both reduces the voltage and connects via an isolating transformer, rather than directly to the mains. So you are extremely unlikely to get a shock.

Modern RCDs (GFCIs) are used elsewhere, but the regs in both countries have remained fairly conservative about power tools.

That’s a portable “site transformer” used for connecting commercial / shop power tools:[this post was last edited: 7/25/2021-19:56]

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Using 220 Volt Appliances On 240 Volts Or More

May not be a good idea, appliances with heating elements that are designed for 220 or even 230 volts often fail violently at the higher US voltages.

 

We have customers with European electric ranges like the AGA ranges that are intended for 220 volts and they have frequent and exciting element failures that are not only dramatic but a little dangerous and the element melt-downs often leave permeant damage to the oven liners.

 

John L.
 
It’s a bit outside the upper end of the spec alright.

The power here comes in at 225V (have plugged a test meter in out of curiosity). It seems to hover between 218V and 228V.

All EU countries used a 220V 50Hz spec. Britain oddly standardised on 240V 50Hz, having previously (into the early 1970s) used a range of voltages in 200-250V range which had evolved in different power company regions.

With the dawn of the European single market, having a member with odd voltages was causing issues for manufacturers, so the spec was changed to 230V 50Hz by tightening the parameters for supplies.

The EU countries (and others) harmonised by using 230V -10%/+6% and the U.K. used 230V -6%/+10%. The appliances are designed for 230V +/-10%

There’s a false notion that the supply voltages didn’t change. They actually did. As transformers are upgraded or taps are adjusted, supplies aim towards delivering 230V +/- 6%

The standard was also adopted by CENELEC (the European electrical standards agency). This isn’t an EU body, and many countries are members, but the standards are compulsory and enforced in the EU, whereas they’re opt-in in any other country that’s a member, but are mostly adhered to quite tightly.

It was also adopted by the IEC for 220-240V countries, so Australia and NZ for example are probably now officially 230V / 400V rather than 240/415V

The general idea is that it made a petty difference vanish and made appliance manufacturer more efficient in Europe and beyond.

There’s a similar issue with the North American spec, where Mexico and several other places use 127V, which is an obsolete European standard, once used in France etc. Some like Mexico use it at 60Hz, others use 50Hz, but it’s a mess as it can burn out some appliances.

Japan also continues to use 100V 50/60Hz which, similar minor difference, which can mean a Japanese appliance might burn out used in the USA or Canada, even tho the plugs are compatible.

South Korea also moved from US style 110V 60Hz to Schuko plugs and 220V 60Hz … another odd variant.

In general CEE 7 colloquially referred to as “Schuko” has become the de facto standard throughout Europe (and beyond). The British system is a total outlier, while you’ve a number of national systems (Italian and Danish in the EU) and Swiss that are compatible only with the smaller “Europlug” used on ungrounded, small appliances or in the Danish case, also with ungrounded 16amp CEE plugs used on say vacuum cleaners and so on.

The Danish system is basically being slowly phased out, as nobody else uses it. The same is happening in Italy, but in a slower way. The Italian system is more compact but offers no safety advantages and the Danish one is dangerously compatible with grounded Schuko plugs, bur doesn’t connect the ground. It’s generally not a major safety concern in Denmark as RCD/GFCIs have been compulsory for a very long time.

The British system isn’t going to change. Nor is the Swiss one.

Ireland, Cyprus and Malta may have to look at changing to Schuko, if the U.K. drifts out of harmonisation on electrical standards after Brexit. Plugs are a fairly trivial matter but things like phone chargers, WiFi boosters, even power-strips and extension cords need to comply with CE and the Low Voltage Directive. Only simple plugs & sockets are excluded and left to national regulation. So if all of a sudden U.K. spec mobile phone chargers are not EU standard, we’ve an issue.[this post was last edited: 7/26/2021-09:11]
 
I’d assume the two will continue to operate in tandem. I’ve even seen US devices carrying UL, CE and other marks.

The issue is narrow tho - mostly impacts things that might be U.K. specific eg WiFi extender plugs or stuff like that.

Ireland used 220V 50Hz historically, and Siemens type Diazed and Neozed household fuses. Before the early 1960s, Schuko was the usual plug and socket system here too. You’ll sometimes find relics of it in old houses.

At the time the U.K. system wasn’t standardised. You’d multiple round pin plugs and sockets, that were all mutually incompatible, as well as several competing standards for a new plug to work with ring circuits. So, we didn’t adopt BS1363 (which defined in IS 401 here) until it became an established standard, which wasn’t really until the 1960s. It existed from 1948 onwards but it took a decade for it to be fully adopted in Britain as the only standard to be used for general purpose outlets.

The main reason we adopted it was to avoid people plugging Schuko plugs into old U.K. round pin socket outlets, which often also cropped here up unofficially. The plugs fit into 5amp BS546 but make very poor contact and don’t connect the ground.

The BS1363 rectangular pin system was specifically designed to be physically incompatible with the various U.K. legacy systems for similar reasons (a mess of different sizes of round pin plugs)z it’s almost impossible to jam a wider pinned, earthed Schuko plug into the current U.K. outlets too. The mandatory shutters came much earlier than on Schuko designs too, so it was adopted in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland simultaneously.

We didn’t, however, adopt 240V, use ring circuits or U.K. type fusing. So it’s a bit like a hybrid of continental style wiring with U.K. socket outlets and wall switches.

It’s hard to know how to electrical appliances will be dealt with in NI, but it doesn’t make any real sense for the U.K. to go way off on different standards. It’s a global market.

The concern here is more is more one that standards aren’t allows to slide. That doesn’t seem likely, but with the current batch of “to hell with red tape” (standards) who knows?

It’s a relatively minor issue though. If push comes to shove we’ll just have a decade of adapters and CEE 7.
 
250 volts

250 volts I think would have been ideal for most of the world, a nice even number so to speak. But it is what it is I guess.

 

@iej: Great info! Not much I can add other than well said and I agree.

 

@Combo: There is something else wrong with those ranges. The upper limit for 230 volts is 253 volts which is rarely exceeded in the US. Not saying it can't/doesn't happen, but rarely do you measure anything over than 126 volts at an outlet in the US.   

 

 
 
250V is used for nominal ratings of wiring accessories.

You’ll see 16 Amps 250 V.

In reality, whatever the nominal voltage used, you need some headroom for any spikes. It’s not a very good idea to fly close to the upper end of the design tolerance.

Appliances will perform optimally on whatever voltage and frequency they were deigned for.

It must have been tough for a market like Western Australia, as it’s not big enough to be in a bubble of it’s own spec, so you’d have had 220-240V appliances being sold and a risk of shortening lifespans of certain devices.
Electronic devices, with switching power supplies, don’t care as long as they’re fed AC between 100V and 250V. They’re all effectively the same device in all markets, just with a different pin layout for the plugs.

I don’t know what the tolerance for US power is, but if you’re using 230V European appliances, you need to keep working +/- 10% and ideally +/-6%.

Beyond 253 volts is not advisable.

The US specs also have followed IEC harmonisation, so in theory your 240 (nameplate 230V) should be just about ok with EU 230V appliances. The supply voltage would likely be similar to the old U.K. or Australian 240V spec. Just be careful if you’re using older appliances though, with a 220V only nameplate.

254.4V for example is mentioned in US utilisation specs. That’s beyond the upper limits of EU appliance voltage tolerances. They might survive it, but then again they might not last.

Generally though, you should be fine, although I wouldn’t guarantee you’d have a warranty!

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114-126

I can confirm this is typical for the US. Anything over 127 volts is rare. 

 

If you ask me elevated voltage isn't that big of a deal, at least with the Chinese appliances I've dealt with.
 
Typical domestic appliances are fairly robust. You can sometimes run into issues with sensitive equipment or with reduction of lifespan of elements, filaments and motors.

It really shouldn’t make much difference though.
 
Canada began with 220 volts.

Or was it D.C. current?
When the Canadian govt. decided to change the power grid, they replaced everyones appliances with 110 volt ones, so I was told.
 
Are the circular round-pin outlets as shown in the first photo UL listed? Obviously they work just fine, just wonder if they run afoul of any US NEC or local wiring ordinances. I think I'd want to run NEMA outlets in my home just to stay standard.
 
Did a bit of Google'ing around over lunch. While I didn't find anything explicitly stating you can't legally use the Schuko sockets in the US, the consensus is you likely won't pass inspection if that ever needs to happen. There is nothing physically with the high quality European sockets of course, but who knows if it might ever cause a problem. It could possibly be a reason for an Insurance claim to be denied etc.

The prudent thing to do just to be safe would be to install NEMA 6-15 receptacles and use a cord to adapt (or change the plug on the appliances).

I can certainly see the merit in having some 240v outlets in the home. I'd like to have one of those high output Induction units also. I have an 1.5 kilowatt RF amplifier that would really perform better on a 240v circuit also but I've never got around to changing that over.
 
Technically

One could site 210.6 (A) in the NEC. But, an inspector would have no way of knowing what would get plugged in a random 6-15 outlet.  

 

I just install that 240 outlet and not think about it.

 

One warning: Do not every put a standard North American table lamp on 240- the bulb screw shell will be energized at 120 volts while unscrewing the bulb.  
 
In general it's nothing to do with the quality of the fittings, but there are standards and wiring codes that are very specific because they are a system. You shouldn't really go outside an electrical code in any country. They're designed for specific grounding systems, types of circuits and and so on and work safely when used as intended.

I had an issue here in Ireland with NEMA plugs at a university. There were a couple of pieces of quite obscure audio equipment which had been brought over by someone I was working with who was based both in the US and here.

He had installed a small transformer and some US NEMA 15 amp outlets. It was a BIG issue when the buildings services inspector spotted it.

The only way they could be used was by changing the plugs to a recognised standard here. So they had to be used with BS546 plugs, with sleeved pins. They're allowed for switched or dimmer controlled circuits, so were permitted for 110V. They wouldn't allow NEMA plugs due to the standard not being recognised but also because of the exposed pins.

You also get into issue with any non-standard equipment used in stage lighting rights e.g. a visiting band, as there is a requirement for EN 60309 "CEEform" (Commando) plugs and sockets.

It comes down to regulations, standards and insurance.

Light fittings:

European standard lamps are different design to an American E26 type.

E27 bulb sockets have a cuff that extends much further than a US one and are only powered when the bulb is firmly seated in the screw, so you don't get any finger contact possibilities.

The UK, Ireland and France also use bayonet cap bulbs, along side E27.

Do not use a Schuko socket with a US lamp. It would potentially expose live screw parts, but any exposed bulb socket does anyway.

The other point I would make is that European outlets are normally on an RCD (GFCI). I don't know if you have installed coverage on those. It wouldn't comply with modern European norms to have them just sitting on a circuit breaker.

Some bayonet fittings, the pendant shown actually retracts the pins when the bulb isn't inserted, completely shielding you from shock.

Light fittings, as of more recent regs, are required to be on RCDs (GFCIs) too.[this post was last edited: 7/30/2021-14:32]

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Freiheit Schoner Gotterfunken Tochter Aus Elysium

The beautiful thing about the US Constitution is that people can use whatever standard they want to use free of persecution. There is nothing more beautiful, and nothing more terrifying to despots than someone who is capable of thinking on their own.  
 
RCDs

RCDs in Europe are in large part driven by the fact its possible to mate various types of plugs to a schuko socket without having a ground.

 

Having an intact equipment grounding conductor with an earth fault loop impedance capable of opening a breaker in 0.8 seconds or less eliminates the possibility of an internal ground fault being fatal.  

 

Because the UK had earthing on all metal appliances and a socket systems that would not open its shutters unless an earth pin was inserted first allowed RCDs to be implemented much latter than in mainland Europe.    
 
RCDs

Reliable earthing is certainly important, and it's been mandatory here for as long as there's been sockets.

Schuko was used here from the early days of rollout to the late 1950s, but non-grounded outlets were never allowed. So, unlike the continent we never really had an issue with non-grounded sockets, as they were never installed.

There were a few continental countries mandated grounded outlets by the 1930s too, but France and Germany certainly weren't included in that list. It was common to have a mix of grounded and non-grounded depending on what the risks in the room were e.g. grounded in the kitchen, but not grounded in an upstairs bedroom. Never understood the logic of that, considering it was a tiny cost saving on fixed wiring. Seemed to be just adding more complexity for no reason.

(That resulted in the 'cooker control unit' to be banned as cooking appliances weren't required to be on RCDs until recently. A cooker control unit is an isolator switch on on side for a large, hardwired cooking appliance and a normal 13 amp switched socket on the other side. Originally they were probably handy for electric kettles near cookers.)

RCD (GFCI) coverage was then extended to all lighting / fan circuits feeding bathrooms (sockets and touchable switches are banned) and then in more recent regulations to all circuits.

The latest addition is arc fault protection, which just came in in the most recent regs and is being rolled out in any buildings that contains sleeping areas, or high risk of fires. They came into vogue in the US earlier, largely because you've totally different type of building construction, involving a lot more wood.

Most buildings here have masonry block construction, usually including the internal walls.

Here in Ireland we used the same fittings as the UK and very similar bonding requirements, but mandated RCDs in the late 1970s for socket circuits supplying anything under 32amps, water heaters, central heating equipment.

Earthing here is TN-C-S in almost all installations. TT (local ground rods only) is permitted only if TN-C-S is impossible due to unusual geology, which is extremely rare and if that's done you have a higher ratted RCD across the whole installation as well as every circuit on standard RCDs.

TN-C-S means that your grounding system in your house is connected to local ground rods, and to the supply neutral at the meter. The supply neutral is then connected to grounding electrodes at regular intervals all the way back to the transformer, which itself is heavily grounded. This picks up any stray neutrals etc.

All of the metal surfaces in the house, including plumbing fittings are then bonded to the grounding system of the house wiring. The logic of this is to create 'equipotential zones' so that there's never any potential difference between say a radiator or a sink and a metal appliance, on the off chance that there was ever a broken neutral in the network outside or some weird fault.

The idea of that system is to ensure a very low ground loop resistance and a very rapid tripping of breakers / burning of fuses if there's a fault. So, you should get near instantaneous tripping in fault to earth.

That system is very very safe, but it does not protect you against a shock if you manage to connect yourself between a live wire and ground or neutral. No grounding system can protect against that, so that's where RCDs (GFCIs) came in for personal protection.
 
Right- and with schuko scokets its possible to have have the live and neutral mate, but not the earth with plugs from other parts of the EU.

 

AFDDs came about in the US due to a lack of earth fault loop impedance requirements increasing breaker trip times on shorted cables. The IEC world doesn't need AFDDs, at all. I have PDFs I can upload on that subject if interested. Not sure if this forum supports PDFs.
 

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