Why does this washer have a 3/4 HP motor? All the ones I've seen are 1/3 and 1/2 HP. Why the generous size?
3/4 Horse Power Washer
- Thread starter Chetlaham
- Start date
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Marketing BS.
People will flock to the bigger number without understanding anything about it.
Same as vacuum cleaners today that market the wattage as a feature, as if using more power makes it a better vac.
"Oooh, this one says 2000, it must be better than this one, it's only 1400."
People will flock to the bigger number without understanding anything about it.
Same as vacuum cleaners today that market the wattage as a feature, as if using more power makes it a better vac.
"Oooh, this one says 2000, it must be better than this one, it's only 1400."
Could be, but in the video the motor stator looks thicker than what I'm used to seeing.
Motor 5303284905
Ok, so I traced the motor, it is indeed 3/4HP and rated 10.6 amps at 1725 RPM.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3846649295...MIyL7Wn4zi9QIVDOTICh2v1QmREAQYASABEgIcmvD_BwE
This is profound, and inspirational. There must be reason for adding a larger size motor.
Ok, so I traced the motor, it is indeed 3/4HP and rated 10.6 amps at 1725 RPM.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3846649295...MIyL7Wn4zi9QIVDOTICh2v1QmREAQYASABEgIcmvD_BwE
This is profound, and inspirational. There must be reason for adding a larger size motor.
As an eBay Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Whirlpool Version
Even more interesting, this one is also at 3/4 HP, and looks like its for a belt drive washer?
Even more interesting, this one is also at 3/4 HP, and looks like its for a belt drive washer?
Three-quarter horsepower washing machine motor
Yes this was mostly BS, but Norge actually did this so they could claim that a 15 pound washer would wash 20 pounds of laundry.
In order to make the 20 pound claim they actually had to put 20 pounds of laundry in it and have the motor not go out on overload for the UL test. This large motor allowed them to do that course it doesn’t say anything about the fact that it burned up a ton of electricity and frequently burned up wire connections and ruined many timers over the life of the machine lol.
Chet if you looked at the Part number in the link you posted for a three-quarter Horsepower motor you can see that it has an Norge part number remember whirlpool owns Norge now it’s not a whirlpool washer motor in a traditional sense.
John w
Yes this was mostly BS, but Norge actually did this so they could claim that a 15 pound washer would wash 20 pounds of laundry.
In order to make the 20 pound claim they actually had to put 20 pounds of laundry in it and have the motor not go out on overload for the UL test. This large motor allowed them to do that course it doesn’t say anything about the fact that it burned up a ton of electricity and frequently burned up wire connections and ruined many timers over the life of the machine lol.
Chet if you looked at the Part number in the link you posted for a three-quarter Horsepower motor you can see that it has an Norge part number remember whirlpool owns Norge now it’s not a whirlpool washer motor in a traditional sense.
John w
neptunebob
Well-known member
When Norge turned into Atlantis..
Did Maytag then fit it with a 1/2 hp motor? Did the machine become less aggressive? Could a 1/2 hp motor be fitted into his Norge?
Did Maytag then fit it with a 1/2 hp motor? Did the machine become less aggressive? Could a 1/2 hp motor be fitted into his Norge?
That is interesting, I never thought about it having anything to do with the 20 pound claim but that makes sense now.
I still like the bigger motor regardless. The fact that a 3/4 HP motor can fit in that space gives me so much hope and aspiration for being able to place a PSC motor in a transmission top load, the larger HP off-setting the slight reduction in starting torque of a 1/3 or 1/2 HP PSC motor. And the bragging rights of a bigger, cooler running motor.
Big thanks in regards to the part number. Whirlpool now owns Maytag, so Norge their brand now. Makes sense too. Also the motor doesn't have "FSP" on it, meaning its not part of the original WP BD/DD line.
I still like the bigger motor regardless. The fact that a 3/4 HP motor can fit in that space gives me so much hope and aspiration for being able to place a PSC motor in a transmission top load, the larger HP off-setting the slight reduction in starting torque of a 1/3 or 1/2 HP PSC motor. And the bragging rights of a bigger, cooler running motor.
Big thanks in regards to the part number. Whirlpool now owns Maytag, so Norge their brand now. Makes sense too. Also the motor doesn't have "FSP" on it, meaning its not part of the original WP BD/DD line.
neptunebob
Well-known member
But it is still kind of wasteful of energy. Did it make enough of a difference for Norge owners to pay higher electric bills?
The higher electric bills are worth it for all the fun and excitement of a Norge/Wards washing machine!
A larger cooler running motor may actually use less killo-watt hours than a smaller over-loaded motor.
Load and motor efficency
This is a good starting point:
https://electricalacademia.com/induction-motor/three-phase-induction-motor-performance/
"It is important to note that the efficiency is fairly flat from around 50% to 100% of rated load and peaks somewhere around 70% to 80%, so specifying a slightly oversized motor does not cause too much of a penalty in efficiency."
This is a good starting point:
https://electricalacademia.com/induction-motor/three-phase-induction-motor-performance/
"It is important to note that the efficiency is fairly flat from around 50% to 100% of rated load and peaks somewhere around 70% to 80%, so specifying a slightly oversized motor does not cause too much of a penalty in efficiency."
Horsepower isn't directly related to wattage consumed.
Voltage x Amperage = Wattage
In the pics below shows a 1/2 hp motor with a 9.8 amp rating at 115 volts. This equals 1,127 watts.
The 3/4 hp motor in the next pic indicates 9.8 amp at 115 volts so they should both consume the same wattage. Not sure if those figures are real world or not but on paper they should be identical.
BTW 10.8 amps x 115 volts is 1,242 watts. I wouldn't lose sleep over 115 watts on an appliance that only runs 30-40 minutes.
Voltage x Amperage = Wattage
In the pics below shows a 1/2 hp motor with a 9.8 amp rating at 115 volts. This equals 1,127 watts.
The 3/4 hp motor in the next pic indicates 9.8 amp at 115 volts so they should both consume the same wattage. Not sure if those figures are real world or not but on paper they should be identical.
BTW 10.8 amps x 115 volts is 1,242 watts. I wouldn't lose sleep over 115 watts on an appliance that only runs 30-40 minutes.
Motor Current Draw
Three things to consider:
1) The listed current is for when the motor is carrying full torque at its rated speed.
2) A washer run less than reasonably bob-loaded will not demand full torque from the motor.
3) Volts x amps = watts is only relevant for restive loads. Inductive loads, like motors, draw both active and reactive power- their current draw is made of both. Residential customers are only billed for active power (watts) and not the current required to sustain the motor's magnetic field (vars). As such, the actual measured current on an AC amp meter of a running washer motor is not indicative of the actual watts (joules of energy) the customers is being billed for.
Before (cough combo cough) says reactive or lagging power factor is not a thing I encourage everyone to do their own research on the following: VARS, power factor, lagging current, leading current, real power, reactive power, apparent power, current out of phase with voltage, and residential billing of reactive power/ lagging current. (Yes sites will come up saying you can be billed or fined for low having a low power factor, but this only applies to commercial and industrial customers. It does not apply to single homes in North America)
Three things to consider:
1) The listed current is for when the motor is carrying full torque at its rated speed.
2) A washer run less than reasonably bob-loaded will not demand full torque from the motor.
3) Volts x amps = watts is only relevant for restive loads. Inductive loads, like motors, draw both active and reactive power- their current draw is made of both. Residential customers are only billed for active power (watts) and not the current required to sustain the motor's magnetic field (vars). As such, the actual measured current on an AC amp meter of a running washer motor is not indicative of the actual watts (joules of energy) the customers is being billed for.
Before (cough combo cough) says reactive or lagging power factor is not a thing I encourage everyone to do their own research on the following: VARS, power factor, lagging current, leading current, real power, reactive power, apparent power, current out of phase with voltage, and residential billing of reactive power/ lagging current. (Yes sites will come up saying you can be billed or fined for low having a low power factor, but this only applies to commercial and industrial customers. It does not apply to single homes in North America)
3/4 hp motor
I remember Frigidaire Galleries had these motors.
I remember Frigidaire Galleries had these motors.
There's a lot going on here, most of it boils down to marketing. The maker of that washer is trying to impress potential buyers by giving the impression that their motor is more powerful than the usual motors for competing washers. They are hoping that this will make potential buyers assume the washer is in some ways "better" than the competition.
In all reality, appliance "horsepower" ratings are very often not factual. It can be as far-fetched and dishonest as the overstated shop air compressor or shop vacuum HP numbers involved in lawsuits; to the intentionally understated horsepower of the 30's and 40's fridge compressors. The shop air compressor makers were lying in an attempt to make their generic product stand out from the competition as more powerful and therefore more useful in a workshop. The fridge makers were talking up low energy consumption when electricity costs were extremely high. It all was a marketing thing.
The agitation speed of a washer is chosen to provide the best cleaning and least wear on the clothes; and it seemed that a 1/2 to 1/3 HP motor was usually adequate to power this. The larger motor might allow for more overloading of the washer before the motor was stalled, but likely the transmission or belt would slip before the motor was a factor.
As for trying <span style="text-decoration: underline;">to determine actual AC motor HP delivered to a load; based on current, that is a more complex task and not one which can be done by multiplying volts and amps. </span>
In addition to what Chetlaham said above, I want to add more details to back it up.
Horsepower and watts are both measures of "power" and can be mathematically converted from one to the other. You can make calculations, based on actual measured values taken with the correct instruments, while the motor is running and determine how much power is being delivered to the motor. This is a snapshot in time of how much load the motor is seeing, and how much mechanical power is being sent to the load attached to the motor shaft. It doesn't represent the motor's rated horsepower; unless the load is known to be exactly 100% of the motor's rated horsepower.
This calculation is not complex; however <span style="text-decoration: underline;">you need to know the power factor (Cos θ)</span> as one of the factors in the calculation. This value changes greatly as load is applied and removed from the motor's shaft. The only way to measure power factor is with meter designed for this purpose. The meter must measure BOTH voltage AND current at the same time, and compare the waveforms. The amount of offset between the peaks of the sine waves of voltage and current is used to determine power factor. It is done on a waveform level, and not possible to measure with two separate meters for both voltage and current.
The amplitude of the voltage waveform, the amplitude of the current waveform, and the offset of the peaks of the two waveforms (in realtime) are necessary to calculate motor watts and therefore estimate horsepower delivered to the load. It is easy to use a meter such as a Kill-A-Watt plug in meter, to measure these values. Static values printed on a nameplate for a motor are used mainly to know if the motor is operating outside its design limits, and to select the proper protective devices.
This washer has an induction motor. The motor has an inductive, lagging power factor. Even with no load, the motor will draw a significant percentage of its rated amps. As load is applied to the motor's shaft, the power factor changes dramatically, making up a significant part of the difference in the no-load power demand versus full-load power demand. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Because power factor is always changing (based on load) with an induction motor, and has to be measured dynamically, it is not ever possible to measure watts, and thereby estimate HP based on separate current and voltage measurements. </span>
Why does it matter to the electric utility? Think of an engine turning a generator, cables from a generator to a motor, and a motor turning a load. If the motor is running freely without a load on the shaft, the engine powering the generator will also see very little resistance turning the generator input shaft. This is because the motor is using little power (watts), because it is putting out very little power (HP.) The generator also is not seeing a high wattage demand from the motor. It passes that light load of power back to the prime mover powering the generator. The engine will see little resistance to keep turning the generator shaft. It will therefore not use very much fuel. Prime mover load, fuel use, and fuel cost of the power plant is heavily dependent upon real power (watts) taken from the power plant, more so than current.
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">So to summarize:</span>
The load placed on the motor shaft takes power (in the form of horsepower) from the motor.
The motor takes power (in the form of watts) from the electrical utility's generator.
The generator takes power (in the form of horsepower) from the prime mover (engine.)
The engine takes "power" from its fuel source in the form of fuel flow.
Fuel costs money to replenish. Therefore the amount of watts drawn from the utility directly impact fuel cost.
This is how home users of power are billed in many areas. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">They are billed by wattshours because that represents their share of the fuel used by the utility. </span>
There are many good online resources if you want to study this more deeply. It is a concept I deal with often when working with generators, switchgear, and electrical protection equipment. It can be an abstract concept and there are people who never grasp it and constantly struggle, even in the industry, with this. Anyone who blatantly states this doesn't matter is really ignorant has no business commenting on such matters. They should, in fact, probably hire and pay for an electrician to change the next light bulb for them.
Sincerely,
David
In all reality, appliance "horsepower" ratings are very often not factual. It can be as far-fetched and dishonest as the overstated shop air compressor or shop vacuum HP numbers involved in lawsuits; to the intentionally understated horsepower of the 30's and 40's fridge compressors. The shop air compressor makers were lying in an attempt to make their generic product stand out from the competition as more powerful and therefore more useful in a workshop. The fridge makers were talking up low energy consumption when electricity costs were extremely high. It all was a marketing thing.
The agitation speed of a washer is chosen to provide the best cleaning and least wear on the clothes; and it seemed that a 1/2 to 1/3 HP motor was usually adequate to power this. The larger motor might allow for more overloading of the washer before the motor was stalled, but likely the transmission or belt would slip before the motor was a factor.
As for trying <span style="text-decoration: underline;">to determine actual AC motor HP delivered to a load; based on current, that is a more complex task and not one which can be done by multiplying volts and amps. </span>
In addition to what Chetlaham said above, I want to add more details to back it up.
Horsepower and watts are both measures of "power" and can be mathematically converted from one to the other. You can make calculations, based on actual measured values taken with the correct instruments, while the motor is running and determine how much power is being delivered to the motor. This is a snapshot in time of how much load the motor is seeing, and how much mechanical power is being sent to the load attached to the motor shaft. It doesn't represent the motor's rated horsepower; unless the load is known to be exactly 100% of the motor's rated horsepower.
This calculation is not complex; however <span style="text-decoration: underline;">you need to know the power factor (Cos θ)</span> as one of the factors in the calculation. This value changes greatly as load is applied and removed from the motor's shaft. The only way to measure power factor is with meter designed for this purpose. The meter must measure BOTH voltage AND current at the same time, and compare the waveforms. The amount of offset between the peaks of the sine waves of voltage and current is used to determine power factor. It is done on a waveform level, and not possible to measure with two separate meters for both voltage and current.
The amplitude of the voltage waveform, the amplitude of the current waveform, and the offset of the peaks of the two waveforms (in realtime) are necessary to calculate motor watts and therefore estimate horsepower delivered to the load. It is easy to use a meter such as a Kill-A-Watt plug in meter, to measure these values. Static values printed on a nameplate for a motor are used mainly to know if the motor is operating outside its design limits, and to select the proper protective devices.
This washer has an induction motor. The motor has an inductive, lagging power factor. Even with no load, the motor will draw a significant percentage of its rated amps. As load is applied to the motor's shaft, the power factor changes dramatically, making up a significant part of the difference in the no-load power demand versus full-load power demand. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Because power factor is always changing (based on load) with an induction motor, and has to be measured dynamically, it is not ever possible to measure watts, and thereby estimate HP based on separate current and voltage measurements. </span>
Why does it matter to the electric utility? Think of an engine turning a generator, cables from a generator to a motor, and a motor turning a load. If the motor is running freely without a load on the shaft, the engine powering the generator will also see very little resistance turning the generator input shaft. This is because the motor is using little power (watts), because it is putting out very little power (HP.) The generator also is not seeing a high wattage demand from the motor. It passes that light load of power back to the prime mover powering the generator. The engine will see little resistance to keep turning the generator shaft. It will therefore not use very much fuel. Prime mover load, fuel use, and fuel cost of the power plant is heavily dependent upon real power (watts) taken from the power plant, more so than current.
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">So to summarize:</span>
The load placed on the motor shaft takes power (in the form of horsepower) from the motor.
The motor takes power (in the form of watts) from the electrical utility's generator.
The generator takes power (in the form of horsepower) from the prime mover (engine.)
The engine takes "power" from its fuel source in the form of fuel flow.
Fuel costs money to replenish. Therefore the amount of watts drawn from the utility directly impact fuel cost.
This is how home users of power are billed in many areas. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">They are billed by wattshours because that represents their share of the fuel used by the utility. </span>
There are many good online resources if you want to study this more deeply. It is a concept I deal with often when working with generators, switchgear, and electrical protection equipment. It can be an abstract concept and there are people who never grasp it and constantly struggle, even in the industry, with this. Anyone who blatantly states this doesn't matter is really ignorant has no business commenting on such matters. They should, in fact, probably hire and pay for an electrician to change the next light bulb for them.
Sincerely,
David
John's Norge anecdote sounds appropriate for their self-destructive attention-junky washers, and I was surprised to see that the subject make in the OP was actually Frigidaire.
steved
Well-known member
Frigidaire?
That looks more like a Wards/Norge to me
That looks more like a Wards/Norge to me
@turbokinetic: Very well written! 
Others than myself do better in describing technical and scientific concepts. You in particular hit it out of the park!
Were Wards washers really that bad? I don't think anything can ever beat post filter flo GEs in that category.
Others than myself do better in describing technical and scientific concepts. You in particular hit it out of the park! Were Wards washers really that bad? I don't think anything can ever beat post filter flo GEs in that category.
