'70s(?) Gaffers & Sattler Forced Air Furnace Problem

[rp2813]

This is about my sister's furnace.  She had the gas company out because it wasn't working.  The report cited the "luminous flame, unable to correct."  Per my sister, the burner flame is yellow.  This can mean a poor mixture, like a valve problem or a burner issue.  The gas guy shut the whole thing down for safety reasons.  A repair guy came out and said parts are NLA and she needs a new furnace.  I'm not convinced that repairs are not possible. 

 

Unfortunately she says she can't get the access panel off to provide model number and specs.  If anyone here knows if G&F furnaces are re-badged units from another manufacturer, that information may help me try to find part numbers.  It's a very small unit that fits into a very skinny closet.  I'll ask if she can at least text me a picture.

 

She got two estimates for a heat pump and both quotes were around $17K due to the scope of the job, including new ductwork and electrical panel upgrade, etc., etc.  Needless to say, that remedy was DOA.  She's on a fixed income so repairing the furnace would be the least costly way to go, but I realize this furnace may be too old and have bigger issues than a valve or burner. 

 

Any advice from our HVAC experts here would be appreciated.  In the meantime I've told her to investigate HVAC contractors and try to find one that's been around for decades (should be a cinch in greater L.A.) and may have some old guy techs who still believe in repairing when it's a viable option.

 

[henene4]

If it is from the 70s, parts being NLA dosen't seem to horrendous.
Our Buderus oil furnace was about 25 years old when the original parts were becoming NLA.

Does she have central AC? Cause if so, just plain guess, I don't think she will need much in terms of a service upgrade for a HP system, neither in terms of ductwork - especially since she already has forced air heating.

A lot of scamming is going on in HP quoting right now because of that "trend".

Don't know where she lives exactly, but looking at any options in terms of subsidies and gov programs might be a big help.
Even down to low interest loans for heating replacement.

Found this which might be interesting to her given she is in Cali and given her income situation:

California Heat Pump Incentives: 2024 Guide

Learn what rebates and incentives are available for heat pump shoppers in California.

www.energysage.com

 

[combo52]

Possible new furnace in LA

Hi Ralph, way too little information to go on to make any type of recommendation, pictures would help.

The other factors needed are the age of the house the age of your sister, whether the house is likely to be a tear down when she leaves it, etc. etc.

On the face of things upgrading to a heat pump would be ideal. I take it she doesn’t have central air-conditioning on this unit now that’s a big plus to get air-conditioning in some cases.

My older brother in West LA head replace his forced air gas furnace, about three or four years ago, it was not a huge project, but it cost money. He regrets now they didn’t put air conditioning in at the same time they offered it for only a few thousand more he also realizes now that he should’ve gone with the heat pump.

John

 

[repairguy]

I would definitely be concerned about the integrity of the heat exchanger before making any repairs. These furnaces didn’t have high quality heat exchangers during these years and were known for rusting out. At least in southeast Texas. The burners are probably dirty causing the yellow flame. In this area it was usually caused by the heat exchanger being rusted out and the rust flakes would fall on top of the burners stopping them up and keeping the furnace from burning correctly. I agree that if you find a good older repair person they can give you an honest opinion on the unit.

 

[qsd-dan]

Find an old guy tech is what I'd shoot for. Most techs will take a glance at a 50 year old unit and refuse to touch it rather than diagnosing/fixing. If the exact problem/part can be accurately diagnosed with the specific part#, it may be possible to locate it by cruising the 'net. Obviously, a cracked heat exchanger will condemn it.

Regarding heat pumps, I was talking to an HVAC guy that has been around for quite a while and he said the average lifespan of a modern heat pump is 8-11 years. Location and use obviously affect its lifespan. Being near the ocean will eat them up due to salty air. Hot/humid areas will stress them. They are efficient but replacements are quite expensive. Unsure if their high price tag is offset by efficiency over its lifespan.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks for all of the replies!  BUT --

 

She has a tech there right now and sent me a picture.  It's a Magic Chef (Columbus Ohio and Los Angeles).  Who knew?  I didn't. 

 

Here is the sticker info in case the sticker is hard to read (tilt your head to the left -- grrrrr!)

 

Model: UBO-3 (or U80?)

Serial: 06852J8

Spec Code:  035-08543-005

BTU: 80K

Bonnet Capacity: 64K

Amps:  5.0

 

 

 

 

[foraloysius]

[No message]

 

[ea56]

Ralph if your sister’s furnace can’t be repaired why can’t she just get a new furnace that will fit in the existing closet where the present furnace is located and continue to use the existing duct work? Why reinvent the wheel at this stage of her life?

I believe from what you’ve mentioned in the past about your sister that she is about my age. I can’t imagine at almost 73 years of age spending $17,000+ for a Heat Pump while living on a fixed income. Yes, a heat pump may save energy and lower her utility bills, but she should live so long to recover $17,000 from lower utility bills.

I hope she will be able to find a reasonable solution to this dilemma.

Eddie

 

[mattl]

I do not know the status in CA but the Inflation Reduction Act has $$$$ for low income folks to upgrade to a heat pump. I Believe the number is $8300. I am anxiously waiting for MI to roll out he program, I will jump on it. There are income guidelines and over a certain income amount it becomes a tax credit rather than a cash rebate.

 

[combo52]

Heat pump longevity

Is far more than 8 to 11 years that’s ridiculous. Almost all good heat pumps and air-conditioning units have a 10 year warranty on the major parts to start with in this part of the country air conditioners and heat pumps easily will last over 30 years in most situations

On top of that the LA area is a very easy area on air, conditioners, and heat pumps they don’t have severe weather there they don’t have much humidity. You also don’t have problems unless you’re only a block or so from the ocean with corrosion either.

In any event, we still don’t have enough information to suggest whether this is a good move for your sister it would be silly to put 17 grand into something if the house is a tear down when she leaves it on the other hand, it could add to the value of the house that plus the other incentives might be a very good idea to go ahead and put a heat pump in.

John

 

[norgeway]

I wish i was closer

Id tear that down and clean it good and see where we are, hopefully the heat exchanger is ok, but dirty burners cause all sorts of problems, a good vacuum and a wire brush works wonders, A good heat pump is great as long as you dont have many days per year below 40 degrees.But dont I MEAN DO NOT let anyone put in a Goodman or other discount brand, TRANE, or CARRIER is the way to go.

 

[qsd-dan]

Might get 30 years out of heat pump if installed 30 years ago.

Not today.

The average lifespan of a gas furnace is now hoovering around the 10 year mark, 15 if used sparingly in areas of mild weather. Everything is built on the cheap today.

Older furnaces may lack efficiency but could easily go 30-50 years.

 

[rp2813]

Well, it turns out the tech wasn't there to assess the Magic Chef.  He was there to write up a deal for a new heat pump.  I agree with everyone who said this doesn't make financial sense, but it's not like she's ever had a whole lot of that . . .  Why she even sent me that picture, I don't know.  She had already made up her mind. 

 

Eddie you're right about her age.  She'll be 73 in May.  And yeah, she's on a fixed income, but between her DGA pension, Social Security, and mad money in the form of residuals trickling in, she's doing OK but not pushing $20 grand OK.  The only price break she can get is in the form of a $2K federal tax credit.  She'll probably use her HELOC, which also isn't advisable, but whatever.   The new HVAC is manufactured by Daikin, a Japanese company.  Never heard of them, but I've never had to shop for an HVAC system.  Warranty is 12 years parts and 6 years unit replacement on the heat pump and 12 years parts on the air handler.  1 year labor warranty by the installer. 

 

I can't see owning a heat pump if you don't have solar to compensate for it.  In this state, there aren't any incentives for solar anymore.  PG&E and the Public Utilities Commission -- notorious crony bedmates but yet the rate payers are the ones that always get screwed -- colluded to more or less kill off solar in California. 

 

My apologies for having wasted everyone's time on this.

 

 

 

[henene4]

Daikin

While they aren't leading in newer tech like new refrigerants etc., they are said to be extremely high quality, pretty efficient and very well thought out.

Basically the Miele in the HVAC scene outside of North America.

And if she can get the 2k tax credit that's at least something - given she's in the larger LA area apparently her heating won't get hard use often and she'll be in the perfect temperature range for efficiency a lot of the time.

At least over here some interest rates have lowered, and with a fixed income, it actually isn't terribly difficult to get medium length loans into your 70s - at least over here.

And it's a boost in property value should the need to sell due to age ever arise.

Sometimes you just gotta make the best of a situation, especially if it isn't your choice anyway.

 

[combo52]

New heat pump system

Hi Ralph, thanks for sharing all this not a waste of our time although, as I said twice before none of us have enough information to really help your sister make this decision.

But I’m going to guess if they’re recommending it and she’s able to swing it it’s probably a good decision, it is so important as we age to have good climate control in our homes and adding central air conditioning is a very important thing for your health as we get older. This could make the difference between life and death for her in a heat wave.

Hopefully better credits and incentives may come back in California for solar, but having a heat pump has nothing to do with having solar panels on your roof, going forward. Most homes are going to be all electric in moderate climates like California going forward.

Let us know how she likes it after she’s had it for six months or a year.

 

[mattl]

Daikin is one of 6 companies who are developing cold weather heat pumps and recently submitted to Gvt agencies for certification, there are other companies developing cold weather units also. I have been doing a good deal of research on HP in anticipation of the roll out of the rebates. I have a 30yo 96% efficiency gas furnace and if I recall a 5 ton AC. I rarely use the AC due to the cost. I have a 50 amp line in place for the current AC, so that will help keep costs down. I am planning on gas supplement heat for the increasingly rare sub zero days.

My thoughts are this will increase my comfort in the summer and long term increase resale value in the future. I would think that would be the case with the above mentioned sister too.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks guys.  I'm glad that at least she's getting a reputable unit, and agree that resale value of her home will increase.  She's super thrifty and rarely uses heating.  I freeze in her house when I'm visiting during the winter months and overnight temperatures are typically in the 40s and short days with temps below 70 don't warm it up enough.  I will wager that she won't use the AC unless it's absolutely unbearable, and then keep the temp setting at 80 or so.  She had better use both heating and AC regularly for the next year while labor is covered.

 

Now what she really needs to do is replace her vintage O'Keefe & Merrit stove.  It emits so much heat from pilots that the kitchen is stifling during the summer even without a heat wave happening.

 

 

 

[ea56]

Ralph,

“Now what she really needs to do is replace her vintage O'Keefe & Merrit stove. It emits so much heat from pilots that the kitchen is stifling during the summer even without a heat wave happening.”

I lived in at least three different rentals in the 70’s that had O’Keefe&Merritt gas stoves and I don’t recall the pilot lights throwing off an excessive amount of heat. Also, if the heat from the pilots light is that bothersome can’t the gas be turned off for the pilot lights and the burners could be lite with an electronic spark lighter?

I personally prefer electric stoves, but if I were going to have a gas stove it would have to be a vintage gas stove like your sisters O’Keefe&Merritt, the new ones just aren’t as good IMO. Seems like it would be a shame to ditch the O&K stove, especially if the home is of a vintage that would have had a gas stove like the O&K.

Eddie

 

[rp2813]

Eddie,

 

The house is original with regard to certain built-ins, woodwork, plaster and flooring, except for both bathrooms and the kitchen, which have all been remodeled.  The kitchen remodel looks to have happened in the '70s.  A KDS-18 was in there when she moved in (1987 or so). 

 

The stove is the oldest appliance in the house.  The kitchen is small, so it doesn't take much to heat it up.  I've told her to run the exhaust fan on hot days, but she doesn't.  She has said she's ready to replace the stove.  It's in perfect working order, including the original clock which makes a racket (if you've ever heard a vintage Kit-Kat Clock, that's the sound) and needs a time adjusting knob.  It's not something that would likely be junked. 

 

I've never been a fan of gas stove styling from the mid '40s to mid '50s and IMO they all look alike.  There are still tons of them out there -- not at all unique or unusual 75+ years later.  To wit:  I just remembered that it's actually a Wedgewood, not an O&F.  Again, that's JMO from an industrial design perspective.  I won't dispute their capabilities and build quality, which are of course infinitely better than any disposable, costly-to-fix (as in control boards), or so-called "smart" range on the market today.