A suggestion she probably regrets making...

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lordkenmore

lordkenmore

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Last night, I was talking to someone whom I know, and at some point I mentioned the limitations/problems I have with using hot water in the laundry room where I live.

Not surprisingly, she immediately suggested washing in cold water. Mentioning the environmental advantages. And the wonders of modern detergents.

This suggestion is a mistake she'll probably forever regret, because I was full of information about the Horrors of Cold Water Washing, and was more than willing to discuss them... In retrospect, I guess I should have remembered that non-AW.org people don't have the deep, burning interest in laundry that we have... LOL

http://ashin
 
Had a

similar conversation with a lady who said she washed everything in cold water! I asked her"Your dishes too?" She looked at my funny, probably cuz I may have had a disgusted look on my face..
I had this thought of her washing her jockey shorts in cold water
 
We have a woman down the street who washes he dishes in cold water. Her dishwasher is on the other side of the house from her water heater. She never preheats the water line by draining the water until it gets hot. Hence, cold water washing of the dishes. And she uses a dime size spot of a generic liquid gel detergent too.
 
OK, gather stones and prepare to fire them in my general direction.

1) My HE Frigidaire front-loader does a great job of cleaning using around 12 gallons of water for an 8-lb. load. An extra rinse, used when chlorine bleach has been added, requires just a few gallons more. I'll take that any day over a 35-40 gallon per load top-loader. The parsimonious tablespoon or two of detergent required only sweetens the deal.

2) Laundry can be done successfully in cold water. There; I said it. However, that means temp-controlled cold water (55-65 degrees), not tap cold---at least in Minnesota, where mid-winter tap temps drop to around 40-45 degrees. When Tide Coldwater first appeared, I washed everything in temp-controlled cold water for the better part of a year. As is my custom, liquid chlorine bleach was added to loads of whites (kitchen/personal; bed linens; bath linens). Results were great in soft water given those parameters.  In fact, recently I've been using cold water on loads of dress shirts, dress shorts and short-sleeve shirts to excellent results using Tide detergents.

 

Having said that, I no longer wash everything in cold water, mostly because it's boring to use the same detergent and same water temp week in and week out.  Yes, very greasy stains that have not been pretreated are removed entirely using the Frigidaire's sanitize cycle, which wasn't always the case when washing in cold.

 

And yes, I agree that using tap-cold water in the northern third of the country is a recipe for disaster during the cold months.

 

Finally, have a great 4th of July weekend one and all!  Be mindful of food safety and careful with fireworks.

 
 
Washing Dishes In Cold water In A DW

Hi Allen, ALL DWs built in the last 20+ years heat the water as needed if the proper cycle is selected, and because of the longer running time this can cause many DWs actually clean better with colder incoming water.

 

It is almost never necessary to run the hot water before starting a DW, it is not only a waste of water, but with the long cycles of modern DWs the water in the hot water line completely cools off anyway between water fills.

 

Running hot water first helped when you had an old KA DW with no water heating element and the whole W&R cycles were only 20 minutes long. But doing it now is just as bad a habit as pr-rinsing dishes before loading the DW.
 
>And yes, I agree that using tap-cold water in the northern third of the country is a recipe for disaster during the cold months.

Unfortunately, tap cold is probably precisely what those who push cold water washing the hardest use.
 
I personally do not buy the THEORY (Yes, its a THEORY. Not proven in the field) cold water washing, for several reasons:

- When testing institutions 'do it,' they only wash the items once. Not hundreds of times, as a normal garment would. And it is my opinion this biases the result; if cold-water is 8% less effective in cleaning, as our testing institution (CHOICE) claims, then by the time the garment is ready to be discarded, I would bet putting two garments side-by-side would reveal a NOTICEABLE difference in both appearance, and odor.

- My own experience with cold and cool water washing has been that odors are NEVER, EVER fully removed. This is a major problem when dealing with underwear, socks and the like. And in my case, shirts too. I sweat a lot, and cold water just doesn't cut it. I need HOT water, and plenty of detergent.
- I found with our previous washer that clothes washed in cold, and line dried ALWAYS had a "musty" odor to them, something that ceased with the Miele, and warm and hot washes.

- Machines used with cold water do not last. At work, the Butcher's department has gone through no less than 2 front-load washers in the 3.5 years I've worked in the Supermarket.
The recipe? Quick Washes (which usually have GENEROUS water usage, i.e. halfway up the door) AND lukewarm water washes/rinses.

- Has no-one seen the threads here at AW.org where reasonably new washers have been torn down for restoration, and found to be filled with mold, scum and dirt? In almost all the threads I've read, the common denominator has been cold water, perhaps under-loading detergent AND/OR fabric softener.
Should this be inadequate, perhaps some of the folk here who work on washers for a living might like to share their thoughts on cold-water washing...

- It has been stated that the oil in our skin does not dissolve readily into water until about 35°C (90°F) - cold water RARELY, if ever, gets this warm. Unless you live in the Sahara desert, perhaps. If it doesn't dissolve, where do people suppose it ends up? In the drain? In the washer? Back in your clothes?

Now for the quick opinions on running your tap at the dishwasher to HOT before use. I still recommend this:
- If your water is heated with Gas, Geothermal, Heat Pump OR Solar, it saves plenty of electricity (far more than the cost of water) for running the tap, even two or three times. At home, I run the tap twice for the Dishwasher, once at the start, and after 16-47 minutes (depending on the cycle) for the rinses.
Total Electricity Saved Annually = $18* . Total Water Used Annually: <$3.
*When using a cycle with about 25 minutes of heating on tap-cold (about 65-80F, usually). This is reduced to about 10-15 minutes, with a 700w/hr heater. Saving is doubled if the Heaviest cycle is used daily.

If you are concerned about the water usage, get a large bucket, catch the water, and use it for pre-soaking laundry, or watering your garden/pot-plants or whatever you see fit. It doesn't have to go down the drain.
 
Our dishwasher doesn't preheat the water until the main wash cycle. So the water used for the prewash is waterline temp. Fortunately in this house our water heater is near the kitchen.

I always thought you should drain the line of cold water before starting the DW. At least that's what I have read here over the years.
 
washer111: I choose not to wash everything in cold water. I'm experimenting with washing more loads in cool and temp-controlled cold, but will continue to utilize the profile wash provided by the Sanitize cycle for kitchen/personal whites. I'm absolutely not a banner-waving advocate for all-cold washing. Tests by Consumer Reports show that excellent results can be achieved using 75 degree (24 C) 'cool' water and a top-rated detergent. Very little hot water is used at that temp and it's the better choice, in my view. You raise several good points in your post; here are my thoughts:

1) While testing institutions may wash loads once, I used cold water exclusively for approximately a year. Many items were washed once or twice every week. I didn't notice any degradation of whiteness or buildup of any kind. As for Choice's findings that clothes laundered in cold are 8% less clean, I'd argue the same is true of a consumer washing in warm/hot water using a middling-performing detergent (Purex, for example) compared to one using a top performer (Tide Ultimate Stain Release).

2) Didn't notice a problem with odor in personal whites or other garments when washing in temp-controlled cold. Liquid chlorine bleach was used in loads of whites, so that may have made a difference. Stinky loads of shirts/shorts worn outside during the summer were not bleached, yet odors were removed effectively using powdered Tide Coldwater. This is an area, however, in which others may find, as you did, that cold water is not effective as warmer temps.

3) I no longer line dry everything during the summer, but did while washing in cold. Did not have a problem with musty odors. Having said that, part of the reason I no longer line dry bath towels is that it's quite humid here in the summer. By July, towels hang damp for hours outdoors. This seems as poor a practice as leaving wet clothes in a washer all day. So heavy cottons are no longer line dried once the humidity goes up.

4) Shorter washer life and buildup of scum: Cold water washing requires precise dosing of detergent. One can get away with using too little--or too much--detergent when washing in warm/hot, but as you pointed out, problems quickly become apparent in cold water. Use of a 'stripping' product like Tide Washing Machine Cleaner on the 'clean washer' cycle is also important. Personally, I believe fabric softeners cause as many problems as they resolve, so I rarely use them in the washer and never, ever in the dryer.

5) Skin cells combined with body oils--ring-around-the-collar, for example--are dissolved/removed by chemical action in made-for-cold detergents. As has been pointed out, a few extra minutes of wash tumble/agitation time are of benefit when thermal action is reduced. I found body oils were not removed, even with specialized detergents, if the wash water dipped below 55 degrees (12.7 C). I'm the first to proclaim loudly that northerners washing in tap cold water in the winter will be very disappointed in the results.[this post was last edited: 7/4/2015-08:13]
 
Some germs don't die in cold water!

To Kill Athlete’s Foot Fungus, The Water Must Be Hot, Hot, Hot!

A report published in the International Journal of Dermatology in July 2013 found that washing clothes in lower water temperatures fails to eliminate live fungal spores from clothing. This new trend caught on as homeowners look to save money on their utility bills, but they could be putting themselves in danger of foot fungus transmission and re-infection, according to a study from Israel.

Researchers sampled 81 socks worn by patients with tinea pedis (athlete’s foot) and washed them at 104 degrees Fahrenheit and again at 140 degrees Fahrenheit. 
They found that 36% of the socks washed at 104 degrees tested positive for live fungal cultures of Aspergillus, a type of mold that may cause toenail fungus. Only 6% of the socks washed at 140 degrees still contained Aspergillus.

Athlete’s foot fungus, Trichophyton rubrum, was found on four socks washed at 104 degrees, but no socks washed at 140.

Study authors said the study confirmed their opinion that washing clothes at high temperatures is essential for killing fungal pathogens. 

 

Bacterial pathogens such as MRSA requires 150 degrees Fahrenheit; Tuberculosis 145F, E. Coli and pseudomonas 140F.

 

Sorry, I want my clothes clean and my washer to not stink!  If all washers were made like Miele, Asko, and Speed Queen with stainless inner and outer tubs we'd be better off.  I think there's something about plastic.  After dismantling my sister's crappy GE with plastic inner and outer tubs I'll never get a plastic one.  My Asko has never had a washer cleaner run through it and if I take the baffles out and look through the access holes, there is NO buildup whatsoever.  I have always used bleach in it...never has hurt the stainless steel or the bearings in 18 years.  If bleach would hurt stainless then all those commercial dishwashers that use chlorine in them would be destroyed by now.  And finally, I want heat!  There's a reason hospitals utilize water near boiling in addition to chemicals to kill microorganisms.  My socks, drawers, and towels all are white and all get bleached.  I have always used some kind of fabric softener too. 
 
Greg-- This is why I won't have a washer without an internal heater. Sometimes, one simply needs truly hot water. The deal-breaker with my top-loading Frigidaire Immersion Care was that the maximum water temp, misleadingly labeled 'Hot', was only around 105-110 degrees. That was sufficient for most loads, but it was frustrating not to have the choice for 120-155 degree water when needed.

Of course, you and I could wash in ice water if we wanted/had to because we use liquid chlorine bleach. Germs/bacteria/viruses don't stand a chance with LCB (in proper concentration, of course) on the job. Another benefit of LCB: I'll bet you've never had a mold/mildew issue with your washer, have you?

The dryer can also be helpful with sanitization if items are thoroughly dried in high heat. My dryer has a sanitize setting which is used for some white loads. It raises the temp a few degrees and lengthens the dry time a few minutes. Takes care of allergens, too. This is why all kitchen towels/rags, bath linens, bed linens, and personal garments are white in my house: All can be bleached.

I think front-loading HE washers are best equipped for cold water washing. The detergent solution is 5-6 times more concentrated than in a non-HE top-loader. The wash tumble also tends to be longer, which, again, helps make up for the reduction in thermal action. [this post was last edited: 7/4/2015-10:30]

frigilux++7-4-2015-10-01-24.jpg.png
 
You Can Get Very Clean Laundry While Washing In COLD Water

BUT

 

The problem is is that you need to use about twice as much detergent to get clothing clean in 60 F wash water compared to using 120F wash water.

 

And since the biggest cost of washing a load of clothing is the detergent, it is almost always larger than the combined cost of water, electricity and the depreciation on the washer itself. 

 

And it is well proven that for most soils [ especially oily body oils ] the hotter the water the better the cleaning.....

 

AND it is almost always CHEAPER to use warm or hot water than using the much greater amounts of detergent necessary to actually get clothing clean in COLD water.

 

Wash water is generally not hot enough to kill many harmful germs, if germ killing is important you need really hot water [ boosted in the washer to over 140F for 30 minutes or longer ] or LCB.

 

Fortunately the heat of clothes drying in a good clothes dryer takes care of most germs.

 

John L.
 
Good heavens, John! If I'd have used twice as much detergent during my temp-controlled cold water washing days, I'd still be pumping suds out of my laundry room, LOL. I used the same amount of powdered Tide Coldwater as I had Tide With Bleach Alternative. But again, heavily-stained loads of whites received a dose of liquid chlorine bleach which undoubtedly provided the necessary boost.

In the ten (or so) years since my cold water washing experiment, the addition of enzyme cocktails and other reformulations have improved the effectiveness of many detergents in cool water. So little hot water is needed to deliver 75 degree water (the temp at which CR tests) that I no longer see cold water washing as a big energy-saving advantage.
 
> As for Choice's findings that clothes laundered in cold are 8% less clean, I'd argue the same is true of a consumer washing in warm/hot water using a middling-performing detergent (Purex, for example) compared to one using a top performer (Tide Ultimate Stain Release).

Not a bad argument. Although at least a couple cold water only users whom I knew bought detergent at the Purex (or even Xtra) end of the market, at least sometimes. Neither ever went up to Tide level that I know of.

[We now will pause this program to allow all to retch at the thought of Xtra being used in 55 degree tap water. Maybe on a short cycle. And maybe even at half dose, because of those money saving gurus suggest using half detergent doses to save money.]

[Still pausing to allow retching.]

[Still pausing.]
 
You have raised some superb points Frigilux, you could nearly convince me to switch, if I wasn't so stubborn and hadn't seen so many dud washers, and poor results.

I think the problem is many people these days penny-pinch their laundry, and use the cheapest of EVERYTHING they can find.
So what might work at the testing institution, suddenly goes out the window when we get into "Quick Washes, Cold Water, and Store-Brand detergent"
 
Want cheap? Do what the movie made fun of: Hang your shirts near a window and don't wash them at all.

Sebum/bodyoil is a hydrophobic semisolid (wax) below 95F. It is what it is, make what you want of it.
 
A VERY SHORT PLAY ABOUT SEBUM, ENZYMES AND DETERGENTS

 

The setting: A laboratory at Procter & Gamble.

Time: Mid-2015.

Scene: A small group of scientists hang up their lab coats. Each keys in one digit of the top secret code permitting their exit.  The lights dim.

 

ENZYME 1:  Are they gone?

ENZYME 2:  Yeah, the coast is clear.

ENZYME 1:  What's your game?  Detergent? Shampoo? Bar soap?

ENZYME 2:  Are you kidding? Detergent, of course. High-end detergent, in fact: Tide Ultimate Stain Release. Do I look like one of those knuckle-dragging bar soap enzymes?  Sheesh!

ENZYME 3:  Hey, I'm with Tide, too!

ENZYME 1:  So what is it you two do, exactly?

ENZYME 2:  I break down sebum and triglycerides into subunits at temperatures lower than their points of solubility.

ENZYME 3:  Then I come along and digest the subunits.

ENZYME 1:  No way!  You can really do that?  

ENZYME 2:  Of course! We're all about the teamwork, you know.  So what do you do?

ENZYME 1:  Oh, nothing.  I'm just here to advance the storyline.

 

Suddenly, noises off.

 

ENZYME 2:  Hey!  Who's there? Who is it?

ENZYME 1:  (sniffs) Do you smell that?  Oh my god, it's....

ENZYME 3:  N-o-o-o-o!  We're doomed!

CLOROX:  Yes, enzymes, it's me; your arch enemy liquid chlorine bleach! BWAH-HA-HA! If I'm added at the start of the wash, you're toast!  Sebum and triglycerides will not be removed at temperatures below solubility!  Ring-around-the-collar will reign supreme!!  BWAH-HA-HA.

 

Suspenseful organ chord.

 

ENZYME 1:  Gee, it's a good thing for all you detergent enzymes that HE front-loaders don't add bleach until the first rinse, after the wash water has been spun out.

CLOROX:  Curses!

 

And....scene.

 

 

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 7/5/2015-08:56]
 
"an estimated average of 0.1 grams of fecal matter was found on every pair of clean underwear in the study."

That's just plain silly. An average of 0.1 grams of fecal matter can be found on STERILIZED underwear...... within 15 seconds of putting it on. The average person carries several POUNDS of it in their abdomen at all times. It doesn't make them sick. When everything is working as intended, it actually makes them WELL.

Salmonella? Unless you take Bart Simpson literally, nobody eats their shorts. If salmonella just spontaneously jumped inside you there would be no such thing as chicken farmers.

Science undermining its own credibility for the sake of headlines. Small wonder almost nobody believes ANYthing any more, unless said belief gratifies their OCD, mindless party loyalty, or militant disgust for the rest of mankind.
 
>That's just plain silly. An average of 0.1 grams of fecal matter can be found on STERILIZED underwear...... within 15 seconds of putting it on. The average person carries several POUNDS of it in their abdomen at all times. It doesn't make them sick. When everything is working as intended, it actually makes them WELL.

Probably true. And as a rule, I don't get too paranoid about how clean my underwear is--if it's clean looking and fresh, that's good enough.

But a point worth considering is that that underwear could contaminate other things in the wash, like kitchen linens. This could pose a problem.

Of course, the sensible solution is to wash loads like kitchen towels by themselves. But in today's America, we have people shoving everything into one load (get all done at once!), using a cold water wash.
 
 
Checked my tap-cold at the kitchen sink a few minutes ago.  Let it run at a slow rate for a few minutes.  Topped-out at 88°F.  Probably would have cooled a bit if run longer.  Supply plumbing is in the attic with the well tank in the garage.
 
I'm one who washes kitchen and personal whites together, hence a full dose of liquid chlorine bleach. Been doing it this way all my adult life (about 150 years, LOL) without a problem. Frankly, between raw meat juices and raw eggs, I'd be more concerned with kitchen whites contaminating the briefs!

Glenn, with tap temps like that it is not possible for you to wash in cold water. You're already a baker's dozen above where CR tests.

Aside: Lord Kenmore, you should give serious consideration to legally changing your name! Seems a shame to waste such an awesome moniker. Hearing the barista at Starbucks call out 'Lord Kenmore' would be worth the price of admission in itself. You're only a monocle away from true eccentricity!

🎩
 
Ditto that!

We do all of our personals and towels together too...in hot water and Clorox...also since I've been an adult and especially since I became a healthcare provider.  And if I am washing colors such as my uniforms after taking care of a funky patient on isolation for something Ajax won't wash off, I put Lysol disinfecting cleaner (not the frilly smell good stuff that doesn't kill germs) in with them to kill the cooty bugs!
 

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