What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors? I've been using it on every load since Nov 2008 to no discernible such effect.
advantage of additives in detergents
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What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors? I've been using it on every load since Nov 2008 to no discernible such effect.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
STPP and colors
A majority of my clothes look new after 10 or more washes with STPP, Ammonia, and Tide products that do not contain optical brighteners. If that combo doesn't fade them, I know STPP alone won't. There are too many variables involved to say that you know STPP is causing dye loss.
Also, while ammonia is caustic, so is chlorine bleach and many powdered detergents. If I recall correctly, that is why sodium silicate is added to higher quality powders (to reduce rate of corrosion).
A majority of my clothes look new after 10 or more washes with STPP, Ammonia, and Tide products that do not contain optical brighteners. If that combo doesn't fade them, I know STPP alone won't. There are too many variables involved to say that you know STPP is causing dye loss.
Also, while ammonia is caustic, so is chlorine bleach and many powdered detergents. If I recall correctly, that is why sodium silicate is added to higher quality powders (to reduce rate of corrosion).
In the mid 80s when we still had those huge boxes of phosphate based powders just like today approximate percentage of the most important ingredients were printed on the boxes.
I think to recall that all the heavy duty "Vollwaschmittel" like Persil, Ariel or OMO had about 15% of phosphates.
The light duty "Feinwaschmittel" brands intended for delicates, non-colorfast clothes and so on like Korall, Fewa, Rei and Perwoll had about 30% of phosphate content, but they were buffered, which means they were almost neutral in pH.
Maybe this made all the difference why this huge amount of phosphate had little ill effect on colors, I don`t know.
I don`t know why heavy duty detergents had way less phosphates, maybe they`ve already reduced it because of environmental concern or maybe it was just to have more room in the formula for other ingredients like washing soda and oxy bleach.
I think to recall that all the heavy duty "Vollwaschmittel" like Persil, Ariel or OMO had about 15% of phosphates.
The light duty "Feinwaschmittel" brands intended for delicates, non-colorfast clothes and so on like Korall, Fewa, Rei and Perwoll had about 30% of phosphate content, but they were buffered, which means they were almost neutral in pH.
Maybe this made all the difference why this huge amount of phosphate had little ill effect on colors, I don`t know.
I don`t know why heavy duty detergents had way less phosphates, maybe they`ve already reduced it because of environmental concern or maybe it was just to have more room in the formula for other ingredients like washing soda and oxy bleach.
launderess
Well-known member
It took scientists at P&G a great deal of time and much effort to create "Tide" synthetic detergent from the formula they licensed from I.G. Farben.
Answer to your query Mr. Boil Wash may be contained wherein:
"Despite the fits and starts and constant strains, Byerly was making progress. By 1941, he had concluded that the best builder was sodium tripolyphosphate. More importantly, Byerly had a counterintuitive breakthrough.
All previous research on soaps and detergents had shown that reducing the amount of builder in a formula yielded a less harsh product (and it was the harshness of products with builder that hamstrung the project for so many years).
Like his predecessors and colleagues, Byerly at first tried to keep the proportion of surfactant—the actual cleaning agent—as high as possible. But when he inverted the ratio by boosting the level of builder well above the amount of surfactant, he got a surprising result: The detergent cleaned well without leaving clothes stiff and harsh.
After a great deal of trial and error, Byerly determined that the correct formula was one part active detergent, alkyl sulfate, to three parts builder, sodium tripolyphosphate. No one could figure out why it worked, but it worked".
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/tidedetergent.html
From my limited German it seems as if "Joanna" touts fact that FEWA is a "neutral" detergent. This means it was suitable for cleaning woolens, silks and other fine laundry, but also could tackle other light duty cleaning around home. All without being harsh on milady's hands in those days before washing up gloves.
Answer to your query Mr. Boil Wash may be contained wherein:
"Despite the fits and starts and constant strains, Byerly was making progress. By 1941, he had concluded that the best builder was sodium tripolyphosphate. More importantly, Byerly had a counterintuitive breakthrough.
All previous research on soaps and detergents had shown that reducing the amount of builder in a formula yielded a less harsh product (and it was the harshness of products with builder that hamstrung the project for so many years).
Like his predecessors and colleagues, Byerly at first tried to keep the proportion of surfactant—the actual cleaning agent—as high as possible. But when he inverted the ratio by boosting the level of builder well above the amount of surfactant, he got a surprising result: The detergent cleaned well without leaving clothes stiff and harsh.
After a great deal of trial and error, Byerly determined that the correct formula was one part active detergent, alkyl sulfate, to three parts builder, sodium tripolyphosphate. No one could figure out why it worked, but it worked".
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/tidedetergent.html
From my limited German it seems as if "Joanna" touts fact that FEWA is a "neutral" detergent. This means it was suitable for cleaning woolens, silks and other fine laundry, but also could tackle other light duty cleaning around home. All without being harsh on milady's hands in those days before washing up gloves.
Thanks Launderess, so you agree that STTP doesn`t harm colors?
Or do you think it`s only OK to use it as long as the pH of it is buffered?
Or do you think it`s only OK to use it as long as the pH of it is buffered?
What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors?
I can't answer that question but in my early days of experimenting with phosphates, the use of it would turn the wash water extremely dark, generally the color of the items being washed. There was also noticeable fading of dark colors, particularly with long term use. I was using a good detergent back then and had a temper valve set to 85F so phosphates weren't compensating for improper laundering methods. I also made (and still make) a huge effort not to get cold wash items dirty...basically office dust. There were a few other members in the past who commented about similar results, I remember Toggleswitch being one of them.
If phosphates works for those here in cold water items without any issues, ignore my post and carry on. I'm just commenting about my specific findings. For those like me who keep and wear the same clothes for the long-haul (I wear the same clothing for decades), I would recommend testing phosphates on some cheap/junk dark items before making it a long term habit.
I can't answer that question but in my early days of experimenting with phosphates, the use of it would turn the wash water extremely dark, generally the color of the items being washed. There was also noticeable fading of dark colors, particularly with long term use. I was using a good detergent back then and had a temper valve set to 85F so phosphates weren't compensating for improper laundering methods. I also made (and still make) a huge effort not to get cold wash items dirty...basically office dust. There were a few other members in the past who commented about similar results, I remember Toggleswitch being one of them.
If phosphates works for those here in cold water items without any issues, ignore my post and carry on. I'm just commenting about my specific findings. For those like me who keep and wear the same clothes for the long-haul (I wear the same clothing for decades), I would recommend testing phosphates on some cheap/junk dark items before making it a long term habit.
I've searched the archives using the searchalator for a post from Steve (Toggleswitch) about STPP and fading, but found nothing.
Are you sure it was the STPP or just new or relatively new clothes that lost color just because they hadn't been washed much?
Are you sure it was the STPP or just new or relatively new clothes that lost color just because they hadn't been washed much?
I just recently brought some ammonia,
What do you guys use it for in the wash?
What do you guys use it for in the wash?
launderess
Well-known member
Phosphates and fading of textiles.....
Have to admit haven't been able to find anything that explicitly backs up that claim. Don't use STPP with all laundry, only whites and even then more so when using that Persil soap in my stash. Find TOL European detergents both liquid and powders perform well enough on their own.
Ammonia in laundry...
Household liquid ammonia is merely the gas ammonium hydroxide suspended in water. The whiff you get from the stuff is that gas escaping from liquid back into air.
Ammonium hydroxide has a pH of about 11.2 making it one of the weaker bases used for laundry. In comparison soda ash (washing soda) is 11.26, sodium metasilicate is 12.62, sodium hydroxide (lye) is 12.88, trisodium phosphate is 12.12, and borax is only 9.05.
PH scale is logarithmic meaning that a substance above or below another can be 10 to 100 times more base or acidic.
In terms of cleaning and laundry use base substances have been used for centuries. Everything from ashes from trees and plants to urine. Romans used urine to brush their teeth as well as for cleaning textiles.
Base substance mixed with fats or oils causes saponification which is part of the cleaning action. Quick lime is poured over dead bodies to hasten decomposition by that process.
For textiles washing at a base pH level causes various natural textile fibers to swell thus releasing dirt and soils. This is the other part of why various substances are used to raise the pH of wash water. Note all soaps in water solution are alkaline, but not all detergents which can range from neutral to either slightly acidic to various levels of base (alkaline)
Ammonia being a weaker base is used because it will "break" soils and oils from fabrics, but not cause as much damage as say sodium hydroxide, washing soda or TSP. For generations it was advised to use ammonia when washing woolens such as blankets because if used in proper amounts it shouldn't cause harm.
Commercial laundries long have and still do use a range of "breaks" and builders that are highly alkaline. These products are *NOT* meant for use in domestic/homestyle washing machines. Such appliances are often made from soft metal parts that will corrode with constant exposure to such harsh chemicals. Commercial/industrial machines are made from high quality stainless steel and other metals designed to withstand repeated exposure to harsh alkalies and acids.
Before enzymes laundry was largely based upon chemistry; alkalies were used for certain soils and stains, acids for another. Hospital laundry with blood stains in UK was routinely done with nothing more than soap, sodium metasilicate and perborate bleach. Ammonia or any other base will remove blood as well.
Asian attendants at local laundry have gotten on the ammonia bandwagon. Have seen them pour one-third to half bottle of the stuff into machines when doing service washes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_solution
https://www.labmanager.com/lab-health-and-safety/working-with-ammonium-hydroxide-20206
Have to admit haven't been able to find anything that explicitly backs up that claim. Don't use STPP with all laundry, only whites and even then more so when using that Persil soap in my stash. Find TOL European detergents both liquid and powders perform well enough on their own.
Ammonia in laundry...
Household liquid ammonia is merely the gas ammonium hydroxide suspended in water. The whiff you get from the stuff is that gas escaping from liquid back into air.
Ammonium hydroxide has a pH of about 11.2 making it one of the weaker bases used for laundry. In comparison soda ash (washing soda) is 11.26, sodium metasilicate is 12.62, sodium hydroxide (lye) is 12.88, trisodium phosphate is 12.12, and borax is only 9.05.
PH scale is logarithmic meaning that a substance above or below another can be 10 to 100 times more base or acidic.
In terms of cleaning and laundry use base substances have been used for centuries. Everything from ashes from trees and plants to urine. Romans used urine to brush their teeth as well as for cleaning textiles.
Base substance mixed with fats or oils causes saponification which is part of the cleaning action. Quick lime is poured over dead bodies to hasten decomposition by that process.
For textiles washing at a base pH level causes various natural textile fibers to swell thus releasing dirt and soils. This is the other part of why various substances are used to raise the pH of wash water. Note all soaps in water solution are alkaline, but not all detergents which can range from neutral to either slightly acidic to various levels of base (alkaline)
Ammonia being a weaker base is used because it will "break" soils and oils from fabrics, but not cause as much damage as say sodium hydroxide, washing soda or TSP. For generations it was advised to use ammonia when washing woolens such as blankets because if used in proper amounts it shouldn't cause harm.
Commercial laundries long have and still do use a range of "breaks" and builders that are highly alkaline. These products are *NOT* meant for use in domestic/homestyle washing machines. Such appliances are often made from soft metal parts that will corrode with constant exposure to such harsh chemicals. Commercial/industrial machines are made from high quality stainless steel and other metals designed to withstand repeated exposure to harsh alkalies and acids.
Before enzymes laundry was largely based upon chemistry; alkalies were used for certain soils and stains, acids for another. Hospital laundry with blood stains in UK was routinely done with nothing more than soap, sodium metasilicate and perborate bleach. Ammonia or any other base will remove blood as well.
Asian attendants at local laundry have gotten on the ammonia bandwagon. Have seen them pour one-third to half bottle of the stuff into machines when doing service washes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_solution
https://www.labmanager.com/lab-health-and-safety/working-with-ammonium-hydroxide-20206
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I think that whoever found phosphates to harm colors was because by softening the water the phosphates made whatever alkaline or aggressive was in the rest of the washing solution to be stronger and probably were not the best dyes around too...
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I mean...
Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution.
That's especially true if you have soft water.
Phosphates in detergents as our dear Launderess said were used as the main builder and water softener but since they have been phased out detergents had been reformulated to have other ingredients doing what phosphates used to do, which of course are alkaline substances.
Say simple carbonates or stuff like phosphonates polycarboxylates or the zeolites.
So again especially if used as an additive with a low water hardness then I see how certain items may suffer from that
Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution.
That's especially true if you have soft water.
Phosphates in detergents as our dear Launderess said were used as the main builder and water softener but since they have been phased out detergents had been reformulated to have other ingredients doing what phosphates used to do, which of course are alkaline substances.
Say simple carbonates or stuff like phosphonates polycarboxylates or the zeolites.
So again especially if used as an additive with a low water hardness then I see how certain items may suffer from that
Now we're getting somewhere!
During the time of my experiments, the water used was definitely on the hard side, so that rules out over soft water conditions.
Cheap dyes are a strong possibility, especially in this day and age of maximizing profits by minimizing quality. I'm assuming articles that call for warm water washing use much higher quality dyes which solves the mystery behind the lack of fading in articles exposed to both warm water washes (my "warm" setting is 120F) and use of phosphates. That also solves yet another mystery I've been pondering why most all articles made today (particularly trousers) call for cold water washing only...cheap dyes/cheap materials.
"Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution."
This solves a 3rd mystery. The majority of us here in the US are adding phosphates to modern detergents without compensating for alkaline conditions.
A big thanks goes out to Launderess and Kenmoreguy89!
During the time of my experiments, the water used was definitely on the hard side, so that rules out over soft water conditions.
Cheap dyes are a strong possibility, especially in this day and age of maximizing profits by minimizing quality. I'm assuming articles that call for warm water washing use much higher quality dyes which solves the mystery behind the lack of fading in articles exposed to both warm water washes (my "warm" setting is 120F) and use of phosphates. That also solves yet another mystery I've been pondering why most all articles made today (particularly trousers) call for cold water washing only...cheap dyes/cheap materials.
"Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution."
This solves a 3rd mystery. The majority of us here in the US are adding phosphates to modern detergents without compensating for alkaline conditions.
A big thanks goes out to Launderess and Kenmoreguy89!
My grandfather worked with Monsanto in the immediate post-WW2 years on All. He'd worked before the war as a chemical engineer in Buffalo, NY; I'm not sure exactly for whom, but apparently having something to do with surfactants as my grandmother would tell of parlor tricks going on in the kitchen with the washing-up after they entertained, impressing all her lady-friends with oodles and oodles of detergent suds in the dishpan (soap powder would have been what was used at the time). My grandmother did mention that the scent was not too pleasant. After the war (during which he worked on uranium processing technology in Huntsville, AL) he worked with Monsanto in Dayton, OH and with a soap company in Cincinnati (Fischer) presumably on process stuff having to do with soap and detergent production. He spent most of his later career developing chemical plants and processes. He was great fun, as after retirement he taught at the junior college level and so there was always fun practical chemistry stuff to experiment with around. I treasure a memory of making my grandmother a steamer basket for vegetables out of a bleach bottle, and figuring out if we could use it by experimenting by boiling pieces of a Clorox bottle.
They lived later in life in suburban Chicago, so his early work in phosphates was not used as they had to convert to no-phosphate detergents early. My grandmother ended up using the "5 gallon bucket" type detergent loaded with soda ash and her Maytag's lint filter was horribly encrusted with limescale.
launderess
Well-known member
STPP is a very weak base with pH of about 10, which is just above borax. When properly dosed for amount of water and hardness cannot see how it would raise pH level of solution to point of causing damage.
However there is another issue; modern built laundry detergents largely have successfully replaced phosphates. Yes, the list of substances is great, but there you are; adding too much of phosphates or any other builder in excess of requirements will likely cause more harm than good.
In all but the hardest water modern TOL and even some MOL or BOL detergents cope perfectly well. Owners manual for my newish AEG toplader echos advice given by European consumer groups and others; anti-limescale products are not required if correct dosage of a good detergent is used.
If one is going to add phosphates (or any other builder) in addition to detergent then it is important to adjust dosage of latter. Otherwise you've got chemicals/substances already in detergent with largely nothing to do. Adding more sequestering agents (STPP), when a detergent already has them in abundance mean something must give.
Our area has very soft water, and have found not much benefit nowadays from adding STPP when using Persil, Miele or other TOL detergents.
Washing in too soft water can cause issues. People add phosphates to their wash, then find things are going grey,so they add more STPP which doesn't help.
However there is another issue; modern built laundry detergents largely have successfully replaced phosphates. Yes, the list of substances is great, but there you are; adding too much of phosphates or any other builder in excess of requirements will likely cause more harm than good.
In all but the hardest water modern TOL and even some MOL or BOL detergents cope perfectly well. Owners manual for my newish AEG toplader echos advice given by European consumer groups and others; anti-limescale products are not required if correct dosage of a good detergent is used.
If one is going to add phosphates (or any other builder) in addition to detergent then it is important to adjust dosage of latter. Otherwise you've got chemicals/substances already in detergent with largely nothing to do. Adding more sequestering agents (STPP), when a detergent already has them in abundance mean something must give.
Our area has very soft water, and have found not much benefit nowadays from adding STPP when using Persil, Miele or other TOL detergents.
Washing in too soft water can cause issues. People add phosphates to their wash, then find things are going grey,so they add more STPP which doesn't help.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
It is true that STPP is not as alkaline as, say the usual builder known as Sodium Carbonate (washing soda).
I have never seen STPP fade colors.
I'm not sure, either, that adding a tablespoon or so of STPP to an HE detergent powder will do any harm whatsoever. And I've never found it so to do, although these days I add STPP, let it mix in, then enough liquid HE detergent to create a very thin layer of suds. The results are generally most excellent.
I don't add STPP to soft items like bath towels because being an alkaline salt of phosphate, it can linger and create a harsher final result. Usually these are very lightly soiled and a bit of liquid HE detergent is all that's needed to cleanse them.
On stuff like clothing I may add some standard fabric softener to the final rinse to help remove any lingering STPP or other alkali and soften the final result. I generally won't add fabric softener to things that are supposed to be absorbent, because the softener can interfere with that capability.
Generally speaking, the least amount of any laundering product needed to get acceptable results is best.
YMMV
I have never seen STPP fade colors.
I'm not sure, either, that adding a tablespoon or so of STPP to an HE detergent powder will do any harm whatsoever. And I've never found it so to do, although these days I add STPP, let it mix in, then enough liquid HE detergent to create a very thin layer of suds. The results are generally most excellent.
I don't add STPP to soft items like bath towels because being an alkaline salt of phosphate, it can linger and create a harsher final result. Usually these are very lightly soiled and a bit of liquid HE detergent is all that's needed to cleanse them.
On stuff like clothing I may add some standard fabric softener to the final rinse to help remove any lingering STPP or other alkali and soften the final result. I generally won't add fabric softener to things that are supposed to be absorbent, because the softener can interfere with that capability.
Generally speaking, the least amount of any laundering product needed to get acceptable results is best.
YMMV
One thing in general is how clothing is dyed.
There are several different ways, but many go either alkaline to acidic or vise versa.
The dye molecules are usually present in one form, then chemicaly altered (usually a reduction reaction), brought into the clothing, then oxidized so they get "larger" and thus stick in the clothing.
One reaction usually happens in an alkaline environment, the other in a sour environment.
Same as hair dye, actually.
This is why oxygen bleach is often considered "color safe".
It tries to oxidize the already oxidized dyes and fails to do so effectively.
Many organic stains which contain dyes though are oxidize easy.
It will still have an effect, but far less so.
Point is that some dyes fair very good in alkaline washing environments, others don't.
It's a game of luck.
I found that alkalinity CAN have a huge impact.
I once on accident hued all my towels red.
I have one red dish towel that can be washed no problem with my other towels.
I had some sodium hydroxide laying around and added 2 tablespoons to the load.
Mistake.
Same with some black bedding.
Was perfectly fine with detergent at 60C.
With sodium hydroxide, grey in one wash.
It also has to do a lot with how the item looks.
Solid black is the worst, looks grey to me after one cd wash.
My grey stuff looks like new after years of washing.
My colored T-Shirts go in the whites all the time and look perfect.
The dark prints on the whites look worse.
In general you can say that the higher the temperature, the extremer the environment and the longer the exposure the more fading you get, no matter what.
All these factors push up solubility of EVERYTHING, just in plane general.
Question is just what will be dissolved quicker than something else.
There are several different ways, but many go either alkaline to acidic or vise versa.
The dye molecules are usually present in one form, then chemicaly altered (usually a reduction reaction), brought into the clothing, then oxidized so they get "larger" and thus stick in the clothing.
One reaction usually happens in an alkaline environment, the other in a sour environment.
Same as hair dye, actually.
This is why oxygen bleach is often considered "color safe".
It tries to oxidize the already oxidized dyes and fails to do so effectively.
Many organic stains which contain dyes though are oxidize easy.
It will still have an effect, but far less so.
Point is that some dyes fair very good in alkaline washing environments, others don't.
It's a game of luck.
I found that alkalinity CAN have a huge impact.
I once on accident hued all my towels red.
I have one red dish towel that can be washed no problem with my other towels.
I had some sodium hydroxide laying around and added 2 tablespoons to the load.
Mistake.
Same with some black bedding.
Was perfectly fine with detergent at 60C.
With sodium hydroxide, grey in one wash.
It also has to do a lot with how the item looks.
Solid black is the worst, looks grey to me after one cd wash.
My grey stuff looks like new after years of washing.
My colored T-Shirts go in the whites all the time and look perfect.
The dark prints on the whites look worse.
In general you can say that the higher the temperature, the extremer the environment and the longer the exposure the more fading you get, no matter what.
All these factors push up solubility of EVERYTHING, just in plane general.
Question is just what will be dissolved quicker than something else.
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