advantage of additives in detergents

[kenmoreguy89]

I think that whoever found phosphates to harm colors was because by softening the water the phosphates made whatever alkaline or aggressive was in the rest of the washing solution to be stronger and probably were not the best dyes around too...

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I mean...
Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution.
That's especially true if you have soft water.
Phosphates in detergents as our dear Launderess said were used as the main builder and water softener but since they have been phased out detergents had been reformulated to have other ingredients doing what phosphates used to do, which of course are alkaline substances.
Say simple carbonates or stuff like phosphonates polycarboxylates or the zeolites.
So again especially if used as an additive with a low water hardness then I see how certain items may suffer from that

 

[qsd-dan]

Now we're getting somewhere!

During the time of my experiments, the water used was definitely on the hard side, so that rules out over soft water conditions.

Cheap dyes are a strong possibility, especially in this day and age of maximizing profits by minimizing quality. I'm assuming articles that call for warm water washing use much higher quality dyes which solves the mystery behind the lack of fading in articles exposed to both warm water washes (my "warm" setting is 120F) and use of phosphates. That also solves yet another mystery I've been pondering why most all articles made today (particularly trousers) call for cold water washing only...cheap dyes/cheap materials.

"Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution."

This solves a 3rd mystery. The majority of us here in the US are adding phosphates to modern detergents without compensating for alkaline conditions.

A big thanks goes out to Launderess and Kenmoreguy89!

 

[jamiel]

My grandfather worked with Monsanto in the immediate post-WW2 years on All. He'd worked before the war as a chemical engineer in Buffalo, NY; I'm not sure exactly for whom, but apparently having something to do with surfactants as my grandmother would tell of parlor tricks going on in the kitchen with the washing-up after they entertained, impressing all her lady-friends with oodles and oodles of detergent suds in the dishpan (soap powder would have been what was used at the time). My grandmother did mention that the scent was not too pleasant. After the war (during which he worked on uranium processing technology in Huntsville, AL) he worked with Monsanto in Dayton, OH and with a soap company in Cincinnati (Fischer) presumably on process stuff having to do with soap and detergent production. He spent most of his later career developing chemical plants and processes. He was great fun, as after retirement he taught at the junior college level and so there was always fun practical chemistry stuff to experiment with around. I treasure a memory of making my grandmother a steamer basket for vegetables out of a bleach bottle, and figuring out if we could use it by experimenting by boiling pieces of a Clorox bottle.

 

[jamiel]

They lived later in life in suburban Chicago, so his early work in phosphates was not used as they had to convert to no-phosphate detergents early. My grandmother ended up using the "5 gallon bucket" type detergent loaded with soda ash and her Maytag's lint filter was horribly encrusted with limescale.

 

[launderess]

STPP is a very weak base with pH of about 10, which is just above borax. When properly dosed for amount of water and hardness cannot see how it would raise pH level of solution to point of causing damage.

However there is another issue; modern built laundry detergents largely have successfully replaced phosphates. Yes, the list of substances is great, but there you are; adding too much of phosphates or any other builder in excess of requirements will likely cause more harm than good.

In all but the hardest water modern TOL and even some MOL or BOL detergents cope perfectly well. Owners manual for my newish AEG toplader echos advice given by European consumer groups and others; anti-limescale products are not required if correct dosage of a good detergent is used.

If one is going to add phosphates (or any other builder) in addition to detergent then it is important to adjust dosage of latter. Otherwise you've got chemicals/substances already in detergent with largely nothing to do. Adding more sequestering agents (STPP), when a detergent already has them in abundance mean something must give.

Our area has very soft water, and have found not much benefit nowadays from adding STPP when using Persil, Miele or other TOL detergents.

Washing in too soft water can cause issues. People add phosphates to their wash, then find things are going grey,so they add more STPP which doesn't help.

 

[sudsmaster]

It is true that STPP is not as alkaline as, say the usual builder known as Sodium Carbonate (washing soda).

I have never seen STPP fade colors.

I'm not sure, either, that adding a tablespoon or so of STPP to an HE detergent powder will do any harm whatsoever. And I've never found it so to do, although these days I add STPP, let it mix in, then enough liquid HE detergent to create a very thin layer of suds. The results are generally most excellent.

I don't add STPP to soft items like bath towels because being an alkaline salt of phosphate, it can linger and create a harsher final result. Usually these are very lightly soiled and a bit of liquid HE detergent is all that's needed to cleanse them.

On stuff like clothing I may add some standard fabric softener to the final rinse to help remove any lingering STPP or other alkali and soften the final result. I generally won't add fabric softener to things that are supposed to be absorbent, because the softener can interfere with that capability.

Generally speaking, the least amount of any laundering product needed to get acceptable results is best.

YMMV

 

[henene4]

One thing in general is how clothing is dyed.

There are several different ways, but many go either alkaline to acidic or vise versa.

The dye molecules are usually present in one form, then chemicaly altered (usually a reduction reaction), brought into the clothing, then oxidized so they get "larger" and thus stick in the clothing.

One reaction usually happens in an alkaline environment, the other in a sour environment.

Same as hair dye, actually.

This is why oxygen bleach is often considered "color safe".
It tries to oxidize the already oxidized dyes and fails to do so effectively.

Many organic stains which contain dyes though are oxidize easy.

It will still have an effect, but far less so.

Point is that some dyes fair very good in alkaline washing environments, others don't.
It's a game of luck.

I found that alkalinity CAN have a huge impact.

I once on accident hued all my towels red.
I have one red dish towel that can be washed no problem with my other towels.

I had some sodium hydroxide laying around and added 2 tablespoons to the load.

Mistake.

Same with some black bedding.
Was perfectly fine with detergent at 60C.

With sodium hydroxide, grey in one wash.

It also has to do a lot with how the item looks.

Solid black is the worst, looks grey to me after one cd wash.

My grey stuff looks like new after years of washing.

My colored T-Shirts go in the whites all the time and look perfect.
The dark prints on the whites look worse.

In general you can say that the higher the temperature, the extremer the environment and the longer the exposure the more fading you get, no matter what.

All these factors push up solubility of EVERYTHING, just in plane general.

Question is just what will be dissolved quicker than something else.