maggie~hamilton
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This is pretty interesting. And btw, gas today in West L.A.: $3.79/gal.
"Alternative energy - What happened to it?"
- Thread starter maggie~hamilton
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What isn't mentioned however is how much energy is consumed converting the water to HHO. They reason why hydrogen powered automobiles have not caught on is because hydrogen is only a transport medium for energy, not an energy source. The process of using electricity to convert water to hydrogen, then dispense it into an automobile ends up consuming more energy than simply burning gasoline directly in a car.
Now, the advantage to hydrogen is that it can be derived from basically practically any energy source. Although much of our electricity in the USA is fossil fuel based, it is off of domestic coal. Although the pollution problem is not solved, the foreign oil / energy source issue is!
Now, the advantage to hydrogen is that it can be derived from basically practically any energy source. Although much of our electricity in the USA is fossil fuel based, it is off of domestic coal. Although the pollution problem is not solved, the foreign oil / energy source issue is!
Theoretically, a combination of hydro, solar, geothermal, and nuclear could produce all the hydrogen we need to completely replace petroleum based auotmobile fuels. But this would probably involve a massive investment in infrastructure, both to produce the electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and to transport/distribute/burn hydrogen in motor vehicles. And I think that nuclear would have to play the major role in such an economy, something that still doesn't go well with most enironmentally aware citizens. Hyrdrogen is also a big challenge to store and transport. Being the smallest atom on the block, it excels at finding leaks in containers and piping, and there will always be storage losses as it escapes for one reason or another.
$3.79 a gallon,, welcome to the dollar a liter club
Another bad thing about Hydrogen as a fuel---SAFETY!Its EXPLOSIVE mixed with our atmosphere,and it burns in open air with an invisible flame-you or rescuers at an accident scene could walk right into the flames and get burned.Gasolene as a fuel is safer.Remember the Hindenburg?If you must use Hydrogen based fuels-how bout fuel cells-this would be safer.Compressing and burning hydrogen as a motor fuel is downright dangerous and scary.But its low pollution-the exhaust is WATER!
Well, opinions vary on how dangerous hydrogen really is.
After all, gasoline can be quite explosive. So can grain stored in a grain elevator, for that matter. One of the most satisfying, deep, thunderous explosions I ever created was by putting a can of sugared soda into the middle of a hot campfire. Right in a little cave like oven of red hot embers. After about five minutes, KABOOM!, the can ruptured, spraying the sugar water into a fine mist that instantly exploded. A fireball of embers added to the spectacular. Who knew? Luckly, nobody was injured and nothing caught fire.
After all, gasoline can be quite explosive. So can grain stored in a grain elevator, for that matter. One of the most satisfying, deep, thunderous explosions I ever created was by putting a can of sugared soda into the middle of a hot campfire. Right in a little cave like oven of red hot embers. After about five minutes, KABOOM!, the can ruptured, spraying the sugar water into a fine mist that instantly exploded. A fireball of embers added to the spectacular. Who knew? Luckly, nobody was injured and nothing caught fire.
Yes gasoline vaporized is explosive-no doubt-our cars or other gasolene motors wouldn't work if that was the case-but hydrogen is a different matter.Power companies have used Hydrogen as a coolant in AC power generators-the gen casing is gastight to hold the hydrogen gas-the pure atmosphere of Hydrogen in the gen casing removes more heat than air-and it suppreses arcs.But when its time to open the generator casing for service-the Hydrogen gas is purged out with carbon dioxide gas-the two won't combine-no hazard.the gen techs are very careful not to allow air into the gen while the hydrogen is in it.Then it could ignite and explode or burn.Then when its time to seal up the casing for use-it is then refilled with C02 gas-tested for leaks then refilled with Hydrogen displacing the C02 gas.Now power companies use a Hydrogen generator-electrolisis of water so no more Hydrogen gas cylinders.Oh yes-fans on the gen rotor circulate the Hydrogen in the gen casing and heat exchangers remove the heat the Hydrogen collected and transfer it to water or air.
Way back in the 70's I had a summer job in a physics lab - used hydrogen to fill some chambers for testing. I was assured by the PhD that relatively speaking, hydrogen is much safer than, say, propane. If there is a leak, hydrogen quickly disperses upwards until it's no longer dangerous. Propane (and gasoline fumes too), are heavier than air and will pool in the room... just waiting for a spark to ignite.
Of course all of these things should be treated with respect. Anything with a lot of stored energy is potentially deadly.
Of course all of these things should be treated with respect. Anything with a lot of stored energy is potentially deadly.
Anybody remember flywheel cars?
Back in the 70's, after the big Arab oil embargo and the gasoline rationing, there was a lot of interest in new ways to power vehicles. One scheme that kept on popping up in articles was the flywheel driven vehicle.
The idea was that cars (and buses and trucks) would have special high speed flywheels, and their inertia would drive the vehicle, gradually slowing the flywheel down. At "charging stations" the flywheels would be spun back up to full speed.
I don't recall any of these articles discussing a major drawback - trying to corner with an immense gyrocsope in the middle of the vehicle, resisting any change in direction. LOL.
And somehow I always kept on visualizing some guy at the charging pulling a big starting cord to get the flyhwheel spinning again ;-)
The whole idea didn't go much further than the Fred Flinstone concept car.
Yabba dabba do!
Back in the 70's, after the big Arab oil embargo and the gasoline rationing, there was a lot of interest in new ways to power vehicles. One scheme that kept on popping up in articles was the flywheel driven vehicle.
The idea was that cars (and buses and trucks) would have special high speed flywheels, and their inertia would drive the vehicle, gradually slowing the flywheel down. At "charging stations" the flywheels would be spun back up to full speed.
I don't recall any of these articles discussing a major drawback - trying to corner with an immense gyrocsope in the middle of the vehicle, resisting any change in direction. LOL.
And somehow I always kept on visualizing some guy at the charging pulling a big starting cord to get the flyhwheel spinning again ;-)
The whole idea didn't go much further than the Fred Flinstone concept car.
Yabba dabba do!
Flywheel vehicals-The idea was to have a motr that could also be a generator turn the wheel.when the car brakes to a stop at a light say-the traction motors become generators and allow the energy to be stored into the wheel from the wheel gen-motr serving as a generator.when the car accelerates-energy is then taken from the flywheel and then sent to the traction motors.Problems were with the flywheels and enclosing it in a vacuum to reduce the rersitence of air or other gases on the wheel and the case had to be strong enough to contain the flywhee if it overspeeded and exploded from excessive cntrifical force-now today--instead of the Flywheel car-the battery hybrid car-the traction batteries replace the flywheel.the concept is still there but the energy storage device has changed.the batteries are safer and less expensive-and the switching circuits are less costly and simpler.
"whatever happened to alternative energy?"
Economics is what happened to it. Money decides everything - nothing else matters. Just remember that those people on tv, who tell you to turn down your thermostat to 65 degrees and put on an extra sweater, will probably be spending their christmas in the Caribbean. How do they get there? In their private jets of course. Then they while away lazy days on that $50,000 a day yacht, that burns as much fuel in a day as you do over the entire winter. And if you can't think of anyone, Al Gore would be one perfect example. Remind me - what did he do again to get a nobel peace prize?
On a less cynical note, a lot of technological innovations sit on drawing boards for many decades. Tomorrow's car was actually designed yesterday. I have no doubt that we will still be driving our own cars in 50 years time.
I heard a really cool quote on tele today, it was made during a program called 'The Oil Wars' - it went something like "the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones and the oil age won't end because we are running out of oil." How poignant is that?
What is required is greater involvement and vigilance from us consumers regarding energy industry practices and energy policy development by governments. It is a little too simplistic to place all the blame on OPEC and our erring and wasteful (crap!!!) ways as consumers. Private enterprise and market economics will not save the day on this issue.
As an example of what can be done, the Icelandic government is funding research and development to become one of the first hydrogen economies, using their geothermal energy. Here in Australia we could use some of our large budget surpluses to do the same, using the sun and, perhaps, the ocean.
Why don't we hear about generating power using our oceans? They are so huge and in constant motion. Surely, if we can build oil rigs that can drill for oil in 10 foot waves to a depth of several thousand meters, we can develop floating powerplants of varying sizes to generate electricity for different puposes. It can't be anymore complicated and expensive than the space program?
Cheeers
Rapunzel
Economics is what happened to it. Money decides everything - nothing else matters. Just remember that those people on tv, who tell you to turn down your thermostat to 65 degrees and put on an extra sweater, will probably be spending their christmas in the Caribbean. How do they get there? In their private jets of course. Then they while away lazy days on that $50,000 a day yacht, that burns as much fuel in a day as you do over the entire winter. And if you can't think of anyone, Al Gore would be one perfect example. Remind me - what did he do again to get a nobel peace prize?
On a less cynical note, a lot of technological innovations sit on drawing boards for many decades. Tomorrow's car was actually designed yesterday. I have no doubt that we will still be driving our own cars in 50 years time.
I heard a really cool quote on tele today, it was made during a program called 'The Oil Wars' - it went something like "the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones and the oil age won't end because we are running out of oil." How poignant is that?
What is required is greater involvement and vigilance from us consumers regarding energy industry practices and energy policy development by governments. It is a little too simplistic to place all the blame on OPEC and our erring and wasteful (crap!!!) ways as consumers. Private enterprise and market economics will not save the day on this issue.
As an example of what can be done, the Icelandic government is funding research and development to become one of the first hydrogen economies, using their geothermal energy. Here in Australia we could use some of our large budget surpluses to do the same, using the sun and, perhaps, the ocean.
Why don't we hear about generating power using our oceans? They are so huge and in constant motion. Surely, if we can build oil rigs that can drill for oil in 10 foot waves to a depth of several thousand meters, we can develop floating powerplants of varying sizes to generate electricity for different puposes. It can't be anymore complicated and expensive than the space program?
Cheeers
Rapunzel
ocean turbines
They are installing a system I believe off the coast of Massachusetts or Maine very soon. There was an article recently on the homepage of comcast and I think in our local paper. I guess the problem has been the salt water and corrosion of the equipment. It has taken alot of r&d to get these pieces correct to withstand being underwater for a long time. Try googling this topic. I am sure it will come up what is "currently" going on.
Jon
They are installing a system I believe off the coast of Massachusetts or Maine very soon. There was an article recently on the homepage of comcast and I think in our local paper. I guess the problem has been the salt water and corrosion of the equipment. It has taken alot of r&d to get these pieces correct to withstand being underwater for a long time. Try googling this topic. I am sure it will come up what is "currently" going on.
Jon
Take a look at Retro-Man's post about buying AC for his 17th century home. I find it quite interesting that all the "innovative" ideas we have about green and energy conservation are actually old ideas re-hashed or tweaked up a bit for modern times. People lived for thousands of years without air conditioning. The buildings were built to stay comfortable in hot weather, and it used to be common knowledge what to do to keep your home cool during the summer days. Today, we build sealed buildings that must be climatized no matter what the conditions are outside...and we call them "green" buildings!
As far as "what comes around, goes around..."
Take the solar water heater...Thousands of years ago, people put water cisterns on the tops of their homes so they could have a hot shower in the evening after the sun heats the water during the day!
The wind farm is also not a modern idea either. Back at the turn of the century, farmers used the windmills not only to pump water, but also to turn generators that would charge batteries and power the home.
Is bio-diesel new? Nope! The diesel engine was originally intended to burn veggie oil when it was first invented. It was only modified to burn petrolieum based oil after it became more commonplace!
There are many others!
As far as "what comes around, goes around..."
Take the solar water heater...Thousands of years ago, people put water cisterns on the tops of their homes so they could have a hot shower in the evening after the sun heats the water during the day!
The wind farm is also not a modern idea either. Back at the turn of the century, farmers used the windmills not only to pump water, but also to turn generators that would charge batteries and power the home.
Is bio-diesel new? Nope! The diesel engine was originally intended to burn veggie oil when it was first invented. It was only modified to burn petrolieum based oil after it became more commonplace!
There are many others!
We're supposed to be gettin a huge solar farm built here soon, all approved and apparently supposed to be the biggest one in N.America to date. Here's a link
As long as
people associate 'alternative energy' with 'giving up valuable freedoms' then we will get absolutely nowhere.
When my American friends ask me if I am not enormously happy to be here in the 'States driving a car (my Malibu or my friends Cadillac) I know they think it must be a freeing, time saving experience compared to 'poor me' in Europe.
I try hard to see it from their perspective.
After all, mass-transit in the US is intentionally made to be as unpleasant, dirty, expensive, time-consuming and dangerous as possible. In Europe it is just the opposite. I can get from and to anywhere in Munich in equal or - if you count traffic jams and finding parking places - less time than here with a car.
Hydrogen, treated with respect, is no more dangerous than any other portable energy storage medium. Anything which can provide the motive force to propel several tons at the speeds we desire is, inherently, going to have some risks.
More people are killed by donkeys every year than by...!
people associate 'alternative energy' with 'giving up valuable freedoms' then we will get absolutely nowhere.
When my American friends ask me if I am not enormously happy to be here in the 'States driving a car (my Malibu or my friends Cadillac) I know they think it must be a freeing, time saving experience compared to 'poor me' in Europe.
I try hard to see it from their perspective.
After all, mass-transit in the US is intentionally made to be as unpleasant, dirty, expensive, time-consuming and dangerous as possible. In Europe it is just the opposite. I can get from and to anywhere in Munich in equal or - if you count traffic jams and finding parking places - less time than here with a car.
Hydrogen, treated with respect, is no more dangerous than any other portable energy storage medium. Anything which can provide the motive force to propel several tons at the speeds we desire is, inherently, going to have some risks.
More people are killed by donkeys every year than by...!
