toggleswitch2
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let's not do/say hurtful things.......
Assault on California's Constitution
- Thread starter jeffg
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toggleswitch2
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love you all...mean it!
let's keep our host in mind!
OK Too much said and too much coffee in me. Be well all!
let's keep our host in mind!
OK Too much said and too much coffee in me. Be well all!
No no Toggles, I think I caught a live one here.
So we have Hitchens, Hicks, Maher and Garofalo. Have any of these people pushed for new amendments to our federal or state constitutions which further their political, let alone religious beliefs? Do tell.
So we have Hitchens, Hicks, Maher and Garofalo. Have any of these people pushed for new amendments to our federal or state constitutions which further their political, let alone religious beliefs? Do tell.
oxydolfan1
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You're totally missing the point, J.
Most Americans have the common sense to recognize this for what it is...a secular issue.
For you to fuse religious figures, in most case our nation's most obnoxious, overbearing, and media-hungry ones, to what will surely become an epic court battle with their input, is to forget the fact that most people see marriage equality as a done deal, an inevitability.
When you take your frustrations and anger out on people of faith, they shut down entirely, particularly when their guaranteed right to freedom of religious choice is challenged.
Not everyone thinks the way most in the San Francisco Bay Area think. If they did, and they wanted to be among like minds, they'd move there.
The reality of the matter is, they don't.
This disconnect and a lack of willingness to respect the thoughts and feelings of "the other guy" will bring upon us more pain and real risk than the benefits marriage equality will afford.
Most Americans have the common sense to recognize this for what it is...a secular issue.
For you to fuse religious figures, in most case our nation's most obnoxious, overbearing, and media-hungry ones, to what will surely become an epic court battle with their input, is to forget the fact that most people see marriage equality as a done deal, an inevitability.
When you take your frustrations and anger out on people of faith, they shut down entirely, particularly when their guaranteed right to freedom of religious choice is challenged.
Not everyone thinks the way most in the San Francisco Bay Area think. If they did, and they wanted to be among like minds, they'd move there.
The reality of the matter is, they don't.
This disconnect and a lack of willingness to respect the thoughts and feelings of "the other guy" will bring upon us more pain and real risk than the benefits marriage equality will afford.
45 states now have laws or constitutional amendments declaring gay people to be permanent second-class citizens. By now we're all clear on one fact: demagoguery works.
Over 90% of the funding for this demagoguery has come and continues to come directly from organized efforts by christian churches, and principle among these is the RCC.
And when the gay community has the gall to start fighting back against this literally unprecedented organized *civil* bashing, your response is that their efforts are somehow an attack on "freedom of religious choice".
IMO the amount of contortion required to arrive at that view is worthy of Harry Houdini. Simply astonishing.
Over 90% of the funding for this demagoguery has come and continues to come directly from organized efforts by christian churches, and principle among these is the RCC.
And when the gay community has the gall to start fighting back against this literally unprecedented organized *civil* bashing, your response is that their efforts are somehow an attack on "freedom of religious choice".
IMO the amount of contortion required to arrive at that view is worthy of Harry Houdini. Simply astonishing.
oxydolfan1
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But do you see your war as a winnable one, when you factor in everyone that will turn their backs on you because of your methods and your rationales?
Winnable? The war is already over in California. And Massachusetts. And all of Canada. And it's very likely a one-way street. The one remaining sticking point may be the SCOTUS, if we're treated to yet another performance of Scalia's Hypocrite Dance on states' rights. We probably will.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "methods". The gay community didn't start this fight with churches. All they want is *state* recognition of their marriages. And as far as I know the gay community has not proposed a single law or constitutional amendment in any state which limits the legal definition of religion, if you get my meaning.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "methods". The gay community didn't start this fight with churches. All they want is *state* recognition of their marriages. And as far as I know the gay community has not proposed a single law or constitutional amendment in any state which limits the legal definition of religion, if you get my meaning.
Million man march
I hope a million men and women march down the asile to marry here in California. On June 16th California will allow same sex marriage. So until November when the election occurs, many will come here to marry legally. The proposed ammendment does not make the marriages illegal. This will be a huge boost to California's economy, and other States may allow same sex marriage just to get their economies going again.
What is really funny to me about this ammendment is that it only specifies that marriage is between a man and a woman, but does not define what is a man and a woman. Since man includes all men and women, I suppose two women could go in and one could claim the title of "man". Or what about a person who has a sex change? Or what about someone born with both sex organs? Will they make you pull down your pants? Will they require DNA testing?
Please come to California, New York will recognize your marriage also. It will be a fun summer here.
Martin
I hope a million men and women march down the asile to marry here in California. On June 16th California will allow same sex marriage. So until November when the election occurs, many will come here to marry legally. The proposed ammendment does not make the marriages illegal. This will be a huge boost to California's economy, and other States may allow same sex marriage just to get their economies going again.
What is really funny to me about this ammendment is that it only specifies that marriage is between a man and a woman, but does not define what is a man and a woman. Since man includes all men and women, I suppose two women could go in and one could claim the title of "man". Or what about a person who has a sex change? Or what about someone born with both sex organs? Will they make you pull down your pants? Will they require DNA testing?
Please come to California, New York will recognize your marriage also. It will be a fun summer here.
Martin
Jeff, we are so fortunate to live in the Bay Area and NOT Rude York City.
Throw in the towel and take comfort in the fact that you are in GOOD, enlightened, progressive company here in one of the most beautiful areas this planet has to offer.
There are many reasons people will pay so much to live here, and the higher level of the general population's intelligence is just one of them.
This thread has become lethal. You're wasting your keystrokes, that is obvious, and many regular AW contributors are avoiding this thread like the plague. Let it go before somebody blows a major gasket.
Oh, sorry, I guess it's already too late for that. So I think it's time for Samantha to twitch her nose and make this thread disappear. Some people take an abnormal amount of pleasure in ripping other peole a new one and the AW forum is not the place for it. Can you say, "private e-mail?"
Ralph
Throw in the towel and take comfort in the fact that you are in GOOD, enlightened, progressive company here in one of the most beautiful areas this planet has to offer.
There are many reasons people will pay so much to live here, and the higher level of the general population's intelligence is just one of them.
This thread has become lethal. You're wasting your keystrokes, that is obvious, and many regular AW contributors are avoiding this thread like the plague. Let it go before somebody blows a major gasket.
Oh, sorry, I guess it's already too late for that. So I think it's time for Samantha to twitch her nose and make this thread disappear. Some people take an abnormal amount of pleasure in ripping other peole a new one and the AW forum is not the place for it. Can you say, "private e-mail?"
Ralph
Ralph,
Please, NYC is not "rude" anymore than you want to hear San Francisco called 'Frisco.
I loved living in San Francisco...but I encountered more prejudice against my mixed marriage there than I ever did when I was out with black friend in NYC.
Doesn't mean anything about either city...
Hell, even Fort Collins Colorado has some non-fascists living there...
If we are going to survive this election year intact (I won't ask for sane, no fair asking others for something I can't be/offer/aspire to) maybe we should all agree some informal rules of conduct instead of pestering our poor host? I mean, you and I don't agree on some pretty major topics (although we do on nearly everything else) but we manage to get along...mainly because you assume good faith. Yes, panthera can be that dumb, not panthera is not that vicious...
What do folks think?
Shall we give it a try, then call it our "cakewalk principles"?
Please, NYC is not "rude" anymore than you want to hear San Francisco called 'Frisco.
I loved living in San Francisco...but I encountered more prejudice against my mixed marriage there than I ever did when I was out with black friend in NYC.
Doesn't mean anything about either city...
Hell, even Fort Collins Colorado has some non-fascists living there...
If we are going to survive this election year intact (I won't ask for sane, no fair asking others for something I can't be/offer/aspire to) maybe we should all agree some informal rules of conduct instead of pestering our poor host? I mean, you and I don't agree on some pretty major topics (although we do on nearly everything else) but we manage to get along...mainly because you assume good faith. Yes, panthera can be that dumb, not panthera is not that vicious...
What do folks think?
Shall we give it a try, then call it our "cakewalk principles"?
toggleswitch2
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A lttile mood-lightener.
I'm from New York City. Am I rude? Hell,no.
I'm downright obnoxious, TYVM! *LOL*
OK girls. Here I go being ridiculous again.
See 1:30.
Do a little side-step.....Sometimes it pays to say nothing.
Keep 'em guessing.
I'm from New York City. Am I rude? Hell,no.
I'm downright obnoxious, TYVM! *LOL*
OK girls. Here I go being ridiculous again.
See 1:30.
Do a little side-step.....Sometimes it pays to say nothing.
Keep 'em guessing.
Keven,
I'm in favor of anything that will inhibit certain members' flame-throwing tendencies.
Contributions to this thread have become extremely aggravating in their tone of resolute unwillingness to maintain a civil discourse.
Jeff didn't start this thread with the intention of producing the types of comments that have been posted here, it's gotten waaaaay out of control and at this point, quite disturbing.
Keven, I have nothing but respect for your contributions to this forum on all threads. Consider me on board with your suggestion. Sad commentary that we need rules of conduct for everyone due to the actions of so few. Respectful members set these rules for themselves without any outside guidance. I mean, aren't we all, for the most part, adults here on AW? It's like I'm back in Catholic school again where the entire class pays for one person's bad behavior. I'd prefer it if Sister Mary Roberta would just get out the goddamn ruler and make a surgical strike!
Ralph
I'm in favor of anything that will inhibit certain members' flame-throwing tendencies.
Contributions to this thread have become extremely aggravating in their tone of resolute unwillingness to maintain a civil discourse.
Jeff didn't start this thread with the intention of producing the types of comments that have been posted here, it's gotten waaaaay out of control and at this point, quite disturbing.
Keven, I have nothing but respect for your contributions to this forum on all threads. Consider me on board with your suggestion. Sad commentary that we need rules of conduct for everyone due to the actions of so few. Respectful members set these rules for themselves without any outside guidance. I mean, aren't we all, for the most part, adults here on AW? It's like I'm back in Catholic school again where the entire class pays for one person's bad behavior. I'd prefer it if Sister Mary Roberta would just get out the goddamn ruler and make a surgical strike!
Ralph
I can just see
Samantha doing "short arm" inspection with a ruler.
Not.
But yeah, let's start a new thread (I wasn't going to post in this one anymore to prevent a flame war and got carried away, very naughty boy. Oh, does that mean Robert gets to hit me with the ruler?)
I've started so damn many threads lately, I'd rather someone else do it, how about it Ralph?
I'll add my usual inanities...
And Toggles will take care of the rest...
Samantha doing "short arm" inspection with a ruler.
Not.
But yeah, let's start a new thread (I wasn't going to post in this one anymore to prevent a flame war and got carried away, very naughty boy. Oh, does that mean Robert gets to hit me with the ruler?)
I've started so damn many threads lately, I'd rather someone else do it, how about it Ralph?
I'll add my usual inanities...
And Toggles will take care of the rest...
oxydolfan1
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I haven't been contributing to any "flame wars" at all, panthera!
If someone is intolerant of divergent opinion on one issue, and expects me to kowtow to his when MY people are being attacked, I'm permitted to respond in kind, I think.
Really, let's end this. There are more important issues to attend to in this world, and my private email is clearly visible in my profile, if someone prefers to "vent" their frustrations directly, rather than throw drama.
Thank you.
If someone is intolerant of divergent opinion on one issue, and expects me to kowtow to his when MY people are being attacked, I'm permitted to respond in kind, I think.
Really, let's end this. There are more important issues to attend to in this world, and my private email is clearly visible in my profile, if someone prefers to "vent" their frustrations directly, rather than throw drama.
Thank you.
civilized behavior vs. horrible behavior.
As Panethera indicated, there are nice people living everywhere. And there are horrible people living everywhere.
I have lived in the bluest, or second bluest, state, Massachusetts, for over a decade. While living there, I saw many tolerant people, and many bigoted people. They spread across EVERY part of the politicsl spectrum. (Well, okay, Republicans and Libertarians are an endangered species in Massachusetts, so they were mostly democrats, but I didn't want y'all to think I was bashing the left).
I have lived in Colorado for several years. And guess what? I've seen tolerant and bigoted people. In terms of homophobia, when I hear someone ranting and making very homophobic remarks, I must admit I immediately think "What skeletons are in YOUR closet?" and I do my best to attempt to educate people out of their idiocy.
What it really comes down to is there are tolerant, and bigoted, people everywhere. They are from all walks of life, and all political parties.
If I had my way, EVERY marriage (gay straight whatever) would be a legal 'civil union' and 'marriage' would be done in the church of your choice.
Personally, if some bigots would get to KNOW people who were different (queer, of a different race, or whatever) they might realize that the world does not end if others who are different exist in it.
But it is equally important not to get too caught up in one's OWN ethnic, religious, or orientation community to the exclusion of everyone else.
We all have a great deal to contribute to each other, and to get from each other.
We also live on a small, and increasingly smaller, planet. We have no alternative but to talk.
It's too bad that so many people dont' realize that!
Nate
As Panethera indicated, there are nice people living everywhere. And there are horrible people living everywhere.
I have lived in the bluest, or second bluest, state, Massachusetts, for over a decade. While living there, I saw many tolerant people, and many bigoted people. They spread across EVERY part of the politicsl spectrum. (Well, okay, Republicans and Libertarians are an endangered species in Massachusetts, so they were mostly democrats, but I didn't want y'all to think I was bashing the left).
I have lived in Colorado for several years. And guess what? I've seen tolerant and bigoted people. In terms of homophobia, when I hear someone ranting and making very homophobic remarks, I must admit I immediately think "What skeletons are in YOUR closet?" and I do my best to attempt to educate people out of their idiocy.
What it really comes down to is there are tolerant, and bigoted, people everywhere. They are from all walks of life, and all political parties.
If I had my way, EVERY marriage (gay straight whatever) would be a legal 'civil union' and 'marriage' would be done in the church of your choice.
Personally, if some bigots would get to KNOW people who were different (queer, of a different race, or whatever) they might realize that the world does not end if others who are different exist in it.
But it is equally important not to get too caught up in one's OWN ethnic, religious, or orientation community to the exclusion of everyone else.
We all have a great deal to contribute to each other, and to get from each other.
We also live on a small, and increasingly smaller, planet. We have no alternative but to talk.
It's too bad that so many people dont' realize that!
Nate
Ralph, if this thread is pulled I honestly won't understand why. The arguments in this discussion have been pretty standard, fairly tame and at least by internet standards not overly personal. It's certainly not the first time I've been accused of "baseless hatred" of the RCC, but Scott may be surprised to know I was born and raised in the church and still identify myself as a RC to my friends, even as I criticize the church's hierarchy for its political activism and demagoguery against my own community. My uncle has been in the Catholic clergy for nearly 50 years now, and I have known Joseph Ratzinger (the current Pope) personally for the last 30 years. The "hatred" here is anything but "baseless", but it's certainly not coming from the gay community. We are not the ones who started this fight.
