Automobile air bag warning!

[Cybrvanr]

I figure I should send this out after a startling discovery this evening while working on my SAAB 900

Luckily, my air bag did not go off, but I came frightenly close to having it as you can see from these pictures. I've been pretty well pleased with the engineering of this car while performing some repairs, but this desigin definitely goes into my book as a bad design. Still, it's amazing what you find when you disassemble something yourself!

About a year ago, the air bag warning light came on in my SAAB. I just ignored the light after several people had told me that the warning light is just a timed indicator that goes off after an interval of time, or that the computer had gone haywire. I was just one of those things to make money for the dealer because they had to reset it. The thought was that the air bag may not go off in a collision, but it would not go off randomly because the air bag computer was shut down...boy was I wrong!!! I decided to get into the car, and find out what was going on after the horn had gotten stuck on a few days ago. I removed the fuse going to the horn to shut it up, and continued to drive the car till today, when I dove into the project to, at the very least, get the horn back working.

in "contact ring 1" you are looking at the steering column with the steering wheel removed. That round plastic thing that the steering column shaft passes through is where the problem existed.

 

[Cybrvanr]

in "contact ring 2" you can see what this is. This little black thing contains a coil of wire. The coil of wire allows for a direct electrical connection to the steering wheel for the air bag, and horn switches, yet still allows the steering wheel to turn. As the steering wheel turns, the ribbon cable winds up, and unwinds, like a clock spring.

 

[Cybrvanr]

In "Contact ring picture 3 You can see where the actual problem exists. This is a picture of the end of the ribbon cable inside that black container, where it has come apart, and the bare wires inside the cable have become exposed.

Okay, why is this such a dangerous problem? Well, It does not take much electricity to set off an air bag. A simple 9 volt battery will easily set one off, so can static electricity. Okay, well, it's not connected to anything with the broken wires right? Well, not exactly! The horn circuit in this particular car, and many others out there energize the horn circuit with 12 volts. By pressing on a horn button, you ground the horns, which makes them honk. Well, think about this for a minute...If there's 12 volts in the horn circuit at all times, what's there to stop one of those bare wires in that broken ribbon cable from contacting the wire to set off the air bag...NOTHING!!!! EEK! Even with the air bag computer disabled, it is still capable of being deployed by an errant wire! One of the many things the air bag computer tests the circuit by looking for an electrical connection to the air bag itself. If it cannot "see" the airbag, it sets off the dashboard light...IT'S THERE FOR A REASON I have learned

Steven Winner

 

[Kevinpreston3]

I have never liked airbags

People swear that these save lives, but then again, you can never prove they saved a life, because the person is alive! I don't like the thoughts of explosive devices of any type in cars. They have recently worked to make these safer, but still, I don't like it.

Passive safety devices? I am on board. Crush zones, seat belt improvements, safer seats, ok. Airbags and other active devices? No thank you. But you don't really have a choice!

 

[westytoploader]

I've never liked airbags either...and with a short person or child in the front seat, they do more harm than good. Even in minor accidents, I've read where the only reason that front seat occupant has died is because of the airbag deploying.

But, part of the reason autos today require airbags is the thin-gauge steel and cheap plastic s**t they're made out of! Would you really NEED an airbag in a 1957 Chevrolet or 1969 Cadillac? I don't think so...those who disagree, pull up a picture of one and check out the thickness of the doors.
And have you seen Honda's new Pedestrian Safety System? The word "joke" is an understatement; gee, the panhandling hobo that runs in front of your car when the "No Walk" signal is still flashing doesn't get hurt, but you have a huge dent that costs $500 to fix! Give me a break...

 

[magic clean]

Contrary opinion here

I know of a recent situation where my partner was involved in a "head-on" collision at about 35 mph. Both he and the driver of the other car, were in newer vehicles equipped with dual front air bags. The police and the paramedics both emphatically stated that the use of seat belts and air bags by both drivers prevented serious injury or loss of life. Both vehicles; Dodge Intrepid & Pontiac Grand Am were totalled.

Both drivers had mild chemical burns from the air bag deployment. In about a weeks time they healed. We can *live* with that.

 

[DADoES]

There was an incident in town a few years ago, in which a car accidentally (dunno if the cause was made public) jumped a curb in a residential area, the airbag deployed and decapitated a child.

On the other hand, a couple months ago a friend's elderly mother was a passenger with another elderly driver, on a highway at night in a wooded area where several roads intersect. They hit a deer. Both were wearing belts, and the airbags did deploy. Neither was hurt, but the car supposedly was considered a loss.

So who knows ....

 

[Kevinpreston3]

I supposed a case could be made...

for a lot of active safety devices. In fact, if you made the speed limits 35mph, alot of fatalities would diminish.

I think it breaks down to what you are willing to sacrifice in one area to have potential safety in another area. I don't like the idea of an explosive charge in front of my face.

Further, the future looks like more and more of these sorts of active devices plugged into your car. And again, I don't immediatly buy the potential safety of these items either. But what you are guaranteed of is a more complex vehicle and a moer costly one.

Remember the "third tailight fiasco"? Laws for automakers having to have a third tail light integrated into cars was passed based on ONE NY City test conducted on taxicabs--a test later found to be highly inaccurate. My understanding is that a third tail light has not been proven to help prevent rear end collisions--however, the car buying public has had to foot the bill for the millions and millions of dollars to integrate this idiotic light into cars. Some studies suggest that there has been cost savings and some level of prevention, but even the most positive studies indicate that any prevention has dwindled, as the novelty effects of the light die down and people don't pay any special attention.

I can bolt a robot on the back of my bumper that has light up eyes when I break and yells and throws his arms up if a car gets too close. I am sure that will prevent some accidents, until the point that everyone has a screaming robot bolted to the back of their car.

All of these safety devices have the added worry as a car ages. Do people have a dangerous comfort zone around these items in cars that are 10 or 20 years old, and whose airbag switches, connectors and ignition systems can age and fail just like any other switch present in the car? And what about people who drive older cars and do all their own work? Should a car be built that a self-maintainer can be killed just by working on?

Airbags are just another example of the nanny state in all its glory. The whole concept of airbags, and their mandatory existence in your car, is a concept that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago. But this, along with seatbelt laws, motorcycle helmet laws, and in some areas, bicycle helmet laws are other great examples of the nanny state.

We could all be much safer if we drove one big airbag, and walked the streets in a big bouncy protection bubble. But would you really want to live that way?

 

[magic clean]

Kevin, you've raised many valid points. Especially with regard to aging vehicles and potential issues with airbags deploying on their own. I'm thinking that airbags have been in wide use now since the early 1990's, so there should be some data to support this possibility if its a real concern. The accident I referred to at 35 mph, was the impact speed....my loved one was driving at a about 50-55 when another driver drove into his path out of an McDonalds restaurant driveway. By slamming on the brakes the car had slowed to an estimated 35 mph.

I don't know if either person would have survived the faster rate of speed. I don't care to know and hope this never happens again. I'm sticking with my sentiments

 

[cadman]

Don't know if you guys know this, but Buick, Oldsmobile and Cadillac were the first to offer passenger airbags as an available option in 1974, '75 and '76. Not only did they protect all 3 front occupants, but they were dual-stage depending on impact speed! They came out at a time where the starter interlocks were being mandated- that is, you had to fasten your seat belt to start your car. (Of course the backlash from the public caused those vehicles to be retrofit in '75). BUT, ordering this airbag system meant you were free from a starter interlock. Even the seatbelts were changed to lap only!

The system was highly effective, and in typical GM fashion, they lost money by offering it at below projected cost, but it was the 70's...seat belt use and air bags were not exactly on everyone's mind and the option was dropped.

I have a GM film of this system and it's amazing to watch. Actual airbag deployment and real interviews with drivers. Good stuff!
-Cory

http://web.telia.com/~u85308305/ACRS/ACRS_1.html

 

[roto204]

I remember an interview with a man who purchased, I believe, either a Caprice or Impala from that vintage and had a horrific accident that cut the car in half(!--considering the sturdiness of those cars). He was emphatic that the airbag was essential in saving his life...

 

[frontaloadotmy]

Air Bags

A while back I read about the airbag controversy; perhaps when they were being legislated into mandatory manufacture.
It was a brief story about a lady that had bought a new
Oldsmobile in 1973; it was equipped with the bags, they were still in a test mode. She was in a collision and said she would have perished with out them. I suppose I would rather have them, than not. I am at that magical age, my extremely
late forties (that equals 53 in gay male age!!) where for the next 2 or 3 years my insurance rates are @ the lowest possible
based on my A++ rating (by State Farm Standards) if they (srs) didn't save me from sever injury or death, at least they would lower my insurance rates a bit more.

 

[wmlask]

Airbags

There are many different issues around airbags. Depending on the situation they can either be helpful or a hazard. Years back my sister in-law hit a deer with her Dodge Daytona causing the airbag to go off in her face. She had to have plastic surgery due to its deployment. She is only about 5'3" so her height put her at a greater risk for injury. Looking at the damage to the car, I don't really think it should have deployed. In other situations, they have saved folks lives.
You can thank the Insurance industry for the laws that made them standard equipment in all cars. Their concern was that claim costs would be reduced if every car had airbags. I used to work for Allstate Insurance Company and my first assignment when I started with them out of college was to keep the books for the Political Action Committee called ALLPAC. The company gave tons of contrbutions to candidates that supported insurance issues. (Most of them Republican). They also had a legal dept. that kept the politcal lobby connections going. Its always nice to know that everyone has the our best interests in mind. $$

 

[whirlcool]

While I believe in seat belts, I wore mine before they became "popular" as I wear one most of the time in "my office". So I am used to them.
The government actually wanted the auto manufacturers to come up with air bags in their cars as early as the 70's, as pointed out above, I had a 74' Toronado with them. But the auto manufacturers kept asking for the government deadlines to be pushed back further and further. Citing cost, technology, the public doesn't want it, etc. I think it was Chrysler that screamed the loudest over this.
Elizibeth Dole, who was Transportation Secretary came up with a plan that if we can get mandatory seat belt usage laws passed she would put the entire requirement of air bags on hold, indefinitely. The auto manufactuers poured tons of bucks into this idea. One of the promises is that the mandantory seat belt law would result in lower insurance rates as a result of lives being saved. Have you seen your rates go down? Hmph!
I advise everyone to read their auto insurance policy. I read ours a few years back and was shocked to see that if you have an accident while NOT wearing a seat belt, they will not cover the accident. No letter notifying us of this, it just appeared in the policy one year. I wonder how much money this little move by the insurance company saves them?
My Father once told me "If the government tells you this will be good for you, you better look closer as usually this change will profit somebody somewhere"

 

[Kevinpreston3]

Your dad and my dad said the same thing....

Quote:

My Father once told me "If the government tells you this will be good for you, you better look closer as usually this change will profit somebody somewhere" Unquote

My dad also got me thinking of other things in my early voting years.

When you are really young and a bit more of an idealist, any time there is a proposition for "more money for schools" or "more money for roads" your first impulse is to check the box YES! My dad pointed out something very simple...What did they do with all the PREVIOUS money for schools and roads?!

He was also in agreement in looking for the money trail.

Do you really think that the move to have seatbelts and airbags is pushed for some altruistic reason? Bah! The insurance lobby just wants to pay out less money. If something may prevent a little payout here and there, they could care less about your choice as a citizen/consumer. They don't care about the cost to the automakers. It really is that simple.

I wore seatbelts way before it was even thought of as a law, was the first in my family to. I thought it was a good idea. Some people seem to lose sight that this is supposed to be a free country. And that means free to take risks and risk avoidance where you see fit.

We have to be very, very careful with both technology and laws in the future years. Imagine a future where everything is connected. You electronically pay for a lift ticket to go skiing. On that ski day, your health insurance coverage is dropped because you are engaging in "risky behavior".

Did you know that right now, many new cars have a "black box" device as part of your air bag system? This device records the speed you were going when the airbag is deployed. This has been used in the courts when someone has claimed to be standing still when someone else hit them. The black box showed that not to be true.

It's very easy to add more memory and storage to that box, and very easy to have it send its data to some repository.

As such, we could find ourselves having our entire driving patterns analyzed constantly, with adjustments to our insurance costs, and possible rejection of coverage, based on this analysis. Do you like that idea?

Many people will openly accept that on face value that "it's for our own good", while they spout off the old chestnut of "If you are obeying the law you have nothing to worry about!"

These things are all possible if we let it happen.