Baking Issue -- Need Advice

[rp2813]

Notwithstanding the ridiculousness of the Gaggeneau EB 388 610 gas oven I'm dealing with, the last couple of things I've baked in a loaf pan haven't risen well.  Up until recently, I've had good results over the past couple of years.  Per the user guide, convection is the recommended method for all baking and I've learned that it's also the best at maintaining consistent and accurate temperature, at least with this particular oven.

 

I'm thinking the culprits could be any or all of these:  Old baking powder, old baking soda, or inferior Mexican flour that was the only item on the shelves back during the first COVID wave earlier this year when things were scarce. 

 

I just pulled an apple cider doughnut loaf cake out (the recipe in Sunday's paper sounded good) and it didn't even rise above the rim of the pan.

 

Are there any other contributing factors that I haven't considered?  

 

I've attached the page from the user guide with various oven options for your amusement, bewilderment, and collective mockery, and the short loaf.

[this post was last edited: 12/9/2020-21:18]

 

[ea56]

Ralph I don’t know anything about convection ovens,  I’ve never used one.  But I would say that maybe the pan size could be the culprit.

 

 I know that recipes I’ve used for loaf cakes and quick breads bake up higher in 8”X4” pans as opposed to the 9”X5” pans I used to use.  Also, the age of the baking powder especially can effect the proper rising of cakes or quick breads, fresh baking soda isn’t as critical at in least my experience.  I’ve used baking soda that was 2 years old and worked fine.  I get fresh baking powder about every 6 months.

 

As for the convection oven, I’d just follow the owners manual or recipe instructions for convection ovens.

 

Eddie

 

[jamiel]

May well be heavier flour than you're used to...the name brand flours in the US are pretty reliable and repeatable...Gold Medal/Pillsbury are one % of protein, southern flours (Red Band/Southern Biscuit/White Lily) are lower than that but consistent, Canadian are higher and consistent. Supermarket flours are probably logically consistent (Publix and Winn Dixie softer than, say, Kroger or Safeway). Change out the baking powder; work through the flour and you should be OK.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks guys.  The recipe called specifically for a loaf pan, either 8.5" x 4.5" or 9" x 5".  I used a 9 x 5 Corningware pan since my favorite L.A. Pottery loaf pan measures a little larger than that.

 

I know my powder is old, so that's the prime suspect.  I'll pick up some domestic flour if the reprise of TP & PT  hoarding hasn't yet spilled over to baking materials.  If I'm stuck with the Mexican A.P. flour (El Rosal brand out of Mexicali, B.C.) would sifting it help even if not called for in a given recipe?

 

 

 

[ea56]

Ralph, aerate your flour by either stirring it with a whisk to fluff it up before you measure it or shake the container before measuring.

 

 I keep my flour in a large Rubbermaid jar with a screw top, I shake it before measuring this way the flour isn’t packed.  I’ve weighed flour measured this way and it comes out to 4.25 oz. per cup, which is the recommended weight for 1 cup All Purpose flour.  I level the measuring cup with my finger, like I’ve seen Ina Garten do.  I buy Target Market Pantry or Good and Gather flour.

 

And I would recommend using the smaller size pan that is listed in the recipe, your cake will come out higher, guaranteed.

 

Eddie

 

[mattl]

You mentioned using a Corningware pan, might be part of the issue. If you use a non metalic pan you need to adjust the temp of the oven down, usually 25 degrees. I think your issue may be the baking powder. I use mine for years, but it is well sealed and I've never had an issue, but it is a cheap fix.

I uses convection for all my baking, again you are supposed to adjust the oven temp down 25 degrees, but I've never done that. Some ovens may do that automatically in the convection mode, you might want to check that on your oven.

One last thing- calibrate your oven. A cheap oven thermometer will work, my VOM came with a thermister and using that I got a very accurate setting. It's interesting to see how the temp swings up and down over a few minutes. Took me a bit of time to tame that as best I could. My oven has electronic controls with the option to adjust the temp burried in the various settings, Worth checking.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks Eddie, I'll remember those procedures and measurements for flour going forward.  I don't think I own a smaller loaf pan than the sizes I mentioned above, but I assume the metal ones are smaller so I'll pick one up.  I got rid of all metal loaf pans when we moved, not realizing that the Corning and ceramic ones I kept were larger than average.

 

As for today's finished product, I'm not all that impressed considering the work and mess that was involved.  I cut a slice off the loaf and the overwhelming flavor profile was reminiscent of Bisquick coffee cake, although the texture was much smoother.  Very little apple evident.  And to think the recipe was adapted from Bon Apetit!  I won't be making it again. 

 

[ea56]

All Metal Loaf Pans Aren’t Equal

Ralph, these are the loaf pans I use for baking our weekly bread and for quick breads and loaf cakes.  They are the Wilton Recipe Right loaf pans, medium size 8.5”X4.5” loaf pans.  They are inexpensive, True Value Hardware carries them, thats where I bought mine.  I had been using aluminum 9.5”X5.25” loaf pans that I’ve had since ‘78.  The difference in all my bread baking was improved.  The smaller size and smaller volume results in higher, more perfectly shaped loaves.  They were worth every penny of the $5.19 price per pan. 

 

HTH,

Eddie

https://www.wilton.com/recipe-right-8.5-inch-x-4.5-inch-medium-loaf-pan/2105-950.html

 

[perc-o-prince]

Temp swing

Hey Ralph,

 

I have to respectfully disagree with Matt on a few points:

 

-Oven thermometer- the cheap dial thermometers sold at Walmart, Ace, etc take a long time to read the correct temp of the oven by way of their design. If you're concerned about the calibration of your oven, get a digital one with a probe that goes in the oven and connects wirelessly or with a wire to the main unit outside the oven. These react almost instantly to temp change.

 

-Temp swings- they are inevitable and present in all ovens. Some mfgrs include settings that may help tighten the swing. A swing of 25F + and - the desired temp is not unusual for a gas oven, but that can usually be tamed to within 12-15Ffrom what I saw with Miele. Our electric ovens had a tighter swing from the start, but that doesn't mean all brands will act that way.

 

-Adjusting the temp for convection- the lowering of temp by 25f for convection should only be necessary if you are using a recipe that was not written for a convection oven; for example, Aunt Ida's famous pound cake recipe from the 50's. Unfortunately trial and error will be the only way to be sure for recipes in that middle range, say from the 80's through the early 2000's. I'm pretty sure most recipes today take convection into consideration.

 

Hope your issue is just the baking powder! I know it affected the biscotti I made last holiday season so I just bought a new can since I'll be making them soon for this year!

 

Chuck

 

[kevin313]

Hi Ralph,

I can't speak to any potential issues with your oven, but assuming it's operating as it should, it has been my experience in baking that when things don't rise properly or evenly, it has always been due to one of two reasons:

1. Ingredients. Fresh, fresh, fresh. I hate to throw out things that are barely used, but I've learned my lesson with all leaveners: baking powder, baking soda, yeast, eggs, etc. The performance diminishes with age. Flour, if sealed well and kept airtight, will last a long time, but I have found that old flour that has been exposed to air will lack performance.

2. Baking pans. There's been a lot of good observations and advice already given here about that issue.

Happy baking!

 

[sfh074]

Convection oven ......

My GE Profile wall mount oven automatically decreases the temp. If I set it to bake with convection to 375, it never goes above 350. The southern pound cake recipe the wife baked last week calls for 425. She uses the convection option to bake cakes. After setting the oven to 425, the max temp it came up to was 400. It shortened the bake time by about 15 minutes as well ..... so checking for done before what the recipe calls for is imperative. The convection option for the pound cake makes for a beautiful golden appearance without drying out the cake ..... which seems to happen if using the standard bake option.

 

[mattl]

Chuck, we really don't disagree, I think the first rudimentary step is to just check the oven temp. I do not see a lot of folks going out to buy a pricier digital thermometer for what amounts to a one time use. I got my Electrolux to minimize the swings but not to 12 degrees, that is excellent.

 

[ea56]

Re: Reply#10

Bud are you sure that this Pound Cake called for 425F?  Could this be a typo? I’ve never seen any Pound Cake recipe calling for such a high oven temp.  Usually they call for 325F, but I’ve seen Pound  Cake recipes calling for as low as 275F and as high as 350F,  but at 425F I think it would over brown before the center was fully baked.

 

One other thing I’ve learned in the past year, after 55+ years of baking is that room temperature ingredients result in a better cake, especially the volume.  To quickly get eggs straight out of the fridge to room temp I place them in a small bowl and cover them with hot tap water and let them sit while I’m measuring the the ingredients and preparing the pans.  Cold milk can be warmed to room temp quickly by placing the glass or plastic measuring cup with the measured milk into the microwave oven at 10% power for about 1-2 mins.

 

I always thought that room temp ingredients was baloney, but I tried it and became a believer.

 

Eddie

[this post was last edited: 12/10/2020-14:30]

 

[chachp]

I've cooked convection for years

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Bud,</span>

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">A long time ago I learned when you convert a recipe you drop the temp by 25 degrees or bake less time.  I've never seen a recipe where I did both.  I'm with Eddie on the 425.  That does seem high especially in a convection oven because I would think the outside would be really dry and dark.  I only use 400+ in the convection oven if I want to brown something on the outside quickly.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I could be wrong, I've just not seen one.  Glad the pound cake came out so well.  I love a nice slice of pound cake with some fruit and whipped cream on top.  What the hell right, if you're gonna eat all those eggs and butter you might as well go the whole way and add some full fat whipped cream.  Right?</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Ralph</span>

 

[rp2813]

Thanks to all for the additional replies.

 

This oven control stops providing temperature settings ending with a 5 once you get up to 300 degrees, I think.  The recipe called for a 325 oven, so I set it for 320 as opposed to 330.  I've had ovens with a convection option since 1990 and have usually adjusted the temperature lower when using it, but on this POS Gaggeneau, it seems to do fine with using the conventional oven temperature setting even when using convection, and usually requires the full amount of baking time as well.   I actually bumped it up to 330 for the final ten minutes or so when baking this loaf.  Again, it's an extremely overpriced POS that the former owner installed in her trophy kitchen (clearly she wasn't a cook, as the companion "Vario 200" modular cooktop is just as lame), but since this built-in oven is an odd size, replacement would require major cabinetry alterations, so for the time being I have to put up with it.

 

What the convection option is good at is limiting temperature swings.  Not so much when using non-convection baking.  Then it takes forever to pre-heat and the temp swings are significant.  That explains why the guide pictured above suggests the convection option for baking.

 

I have an oven thermometer around here somewhere so will double check, but I'm pretty sure the temperature settings are fairly accurate just based on my experience over the past 2.5 years.

 

 

 

[ea56]

A variance of 25 degrees more or less isn’t going to make an appreciable difference with the finished results of most baked goods.  It just means that they will either bake slower or faster than the recipe suggests.  This is why most times given for recipes have a window, says 35-40 mins for instance.  I always check anything I’m baking at the soonest recommended time and adjust for any additional time accordingly.

 

Just keep and eye on what your baking, don’t be to anal about the temps, unless your oven is WAY off, say you set it for 325F and it is actually 375F, then the thermostat needs to be recalibrated.    Also, once you bake a particular recipe, note what the time was when the item was properly baked  for future reference.

 

HTH

Eddie

 

[perc-o-prince]

once you bake a particular recipe, note what the time was

Eddie-

 

That's one of the reasons I can't get rid of my falling-apart-a-bit Fannie Farmer cookbook from 1987! All kinds of notes made in recipes re: time, temp, ingredients, etc.!

 

Chuck

 

[ea56]

Chuck, I too do the same thing with all my cookbooks and recipes.  I have notations next to almost every recipe I’ve ever used, either changing the amounts, the ingredients, times, temp or method of putting the dish or baked good together.

 

Now I use the internet and do searches for different things, review several, make mental notes of what I like or don’t like, them come up with my own composite recipe using the things that I like from various different recipes.  Then I write the recipe down and I have a great big stack of these handwritten recipes rubber banded together and kept in the front covers of three different cookbooks.  

 

I guess I kinda run my own “test kitchen” LOL.  But doing this has made me a better cook and baker I believe.  I think that I can always learn something new, and I do every day.

 

Eddie

 

[kb0nes]

When measuring the oven temp with a thermocouple be sure that infrared radiation isn't skewing your readings. I have data logged temperature curves on my oven and initially I was seeing huge 30+ Deg F swings which I thought seemed excessive. I formed a tubular shield from aluminum foil about 2" in diameter and placed the thermocouple bead in the center of the tube. On subsequent runs the temp swings were less than half the initial tests. Infrared energy from the elements was clearly heating the thermocouple.

Granted the food you would cook would feel the heat of the infrared energy also, but if one is assuming they are measuring cavity air temp, the results may be radically off when the elements are energized.

 

[chachp]

Recipes, Recipes and more Recipes

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I collect them from everywhere.  I recently was cleaning off the top of my desk and moved them to a pile on the floor with the intention of putting them in one of the many books I have made over the years.  I too, try different variations and note them on the recipe.  The one here is for the white bread recipe for my bread machine.  I have been making this one for years and have many notes.  Then I make books for speciality items like this one for grill recipes.  I also have an online cookbook where I list those that I want to share with people.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">If I ever retire, I will likely spend a lot of time organizing all of these.  I keep wanting to scan things, put them in the on line cookbook, and then use them from my iPad when cooking.  I just keep going back to the handwritten recipes.  There is nothing like that stained piece of paper with notes all over to add to the pleasure of it.</span>

 

[perc-o-prince]

Ralph,

ROFL! In addition to recipe tweaks, I have printed recipes sticking out of the book and hand-written recipes on the blank fly-leaf (or vacat) pages in that book! I get so pissed when I can't find a fave recipe but it's my own fault!

 

Since we're re-doing the downstairs kitchen, I need to do something with the small photo book that I have where I copied my fave recipes from my mother's files. Since they're already on index cards, I'll take them out, band them, then probably put them in some kind of database with a printed backup! Any suggestions?

 

Chuck

 

[chachp]

Cookbook apps...

 

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">Chuck,</span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">I’ve used a number of cookbook apps over the years.  The one I like best is one called Cook’n.  What I like best about it is how it will automatically publish my cookbook to a web page that I can share with anyone I please.  I can type them in or when I find a recipe online, I can click a button to import it into my cookbook and it flags it where it came from which I also like.  I don’t want anyone to think I am claiming their recipes as my own.</span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">Recently, he introduced a feature where you can scan a handwritten recipe and it will convert the handwriting to text.  I have not tried that yet.  That would actually mean I take the time to organize and catalog what I have all over the place and clearly, I’m not motivated at this time to do that.  LOL.  </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">You can subscribe to an account where your recipes will sync to their servers and access them from any device.  Meaning I can import and manage from my phone, iPad, Computer, etc.  They also have Mac and Windows apps.  The website is read only which I like because no one can mess with the recipes just use them.  There was one I tried and for the life of me I can’t remember what it was called.  It was all web based and I thought I would like that concept, but it wasn’t implemented well.  The interface was very poorly designed so I stayed with Cook’n.</span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">If you have a friend who also uses Cook’n, you can click a button to share a recipe with that friend. </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">I’ve used this app for a number of years now and I haven’t kept up with what else is out there.  I suspect there are other apps now doing the same thing.</span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">My recommendation is Cook’n because it’s what I know.  Maybe others will recommend other apps that do the same thing.  I stick with this one because the developer is very open to enhancement suggestions and when something does go wrong they are quick to fix.</span>

 

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">I have always hoped that someday we would have a cookbook incorporated into this website because I know we have a lot of really great home and professional cooks around here.  I know over the years there has been talk of it, but I also know what it would take to create and manage something like that so for now we post them the way we do.</span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'American Typewriter', serif;">Ralph</span>

[this post was last edited: 12/11/2020-02:58]

 

[sfh074]

Well heck ...... working from memory

and finding out it isn't working all that well these days.

 

Yep, my recall on the temp of the pound cake was way off after checking the recipe. I must have extrapolated the temp, based on (what I think is a long bake time - 1hr & 30mins for any cake) .... causing me to think the temp was greater instead.  If that made any sense.  Not sure why I would think 425 would be an appropriate bake temp in the first place. But that is why the wife does most of the baking for sure. The convection oven does reduce the time by about 15 mins which is a plus and creates a beautiful even golden color.

 

I'm including the recipe I talked about. It is by far one of the best old fashioned pound cake recipes we've found. We normally make it for Thanksgiving and this year was no exception. Hope you guys give it a try,  because I am a cake nut and this one is over the top delicious, not to mention the texture is exactly what you think of for an old fashioned pound cake. It reminds me of those decadent old fashioned cake donuts from a bake shop I remember as a child.

 

Bud   

 

 

 

[chachp]

YUMM, Bud.

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">That sounds good.  I am definitely going to make that.  Thanks for sharing the recipe.  Does your wife use a bundt pan?  I have no clue where mine is as I seldom use it.  I do have a tube pan, I suspect that would work fine.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?</span>

 

[ea56]

Ralph

I agree that does look like a good recipe for Pound Cake.  And yes, a 10” tube pan would work just fine for this cake. Actually, sometimes I prefer a 10” tube pan for a Pound Cake over a bundt pan, especially if I want to put a light glaze on the cake.

 

Eddie

 

[vacerator]

Don't forget

"high" altitude temps. amd times as well. Special cbd brownies?

 

[ea56]

Re: reply#26

I posted detailed instructions on thread#82440 post #1068858 , found in reply #58, on how to make Marijuana edibles from scratch.

 

 If you live in a state where pot is legal and you have no adverse reactions from pot you may want to give this a try.  It’s healthier than smoking pot, the pain relieving effects last much longer and its a much less expensive way to benefit from the pain relieving effects of marijuana than buying prepared edibles from a dispensary.

 

 I have very bad arthritis throughout my body and this works better than anything else with no adverse effects.  My doctor approves of my using marijuana for this pain.  It’s non  addictive, opioids aren’t.  I won’t ever use opioids under any circumstance.

 

 It may seem complicated, but after you get the hang of it its really very easy. Just be sure to pay close attention to what you’re doing, otherwise you can waste a lot of money.

 

 I make a two months supply for just under $100.00. I store them in the freezer in air tight ziplock bags and remove only the amount I can use in a week at a time.  The whole process takes me less than 3 hours from start to finish.

 

These edibles are based on THC not CBD.

 

The recipe I use for the Brownies is as follows:

1cup flour

1 tsp. baking powder

1/2 tsp salt

1 cup dark brown sugar

1/2 cup canna butter (detailed instructions for making it in the thread referred to above)

1 egg

2 oz. melted unsweetened chocolate

Mix the dry ingredients together.  Melt the chocolate, add the canna butter, brown sugar and egg and beat together by hand.  Blend in the dry ingredients and put into buttered 8”x8” pan, bake at 325f for 20 mins, or until tests done with toothpick.  Cool for 15 mins, then carefully loosen edges of brownies and shake pan gently to loosen bottom of brownies from the pan, turn out on cooling rack and cool completely.  With a sharp long knife cut into 4 even quarters then cut each quarter into 16 even pieces.  The yield is 64 pieces or two months+ of pain reliever.  I take one piece at quarter to 5 every evening before dinner and the effects last until about 8:30.  It takes about 30-44 mins to start to kick in.

 

 

 

Eddie

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?82440

[this post was last edited: 12/11/2020-13:49]

 

[twintubdexter]

Ralph,

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">Someone gave me one of these pricey Gaggenau built-in steamers a few years ago. It was in a new home in the Big Horn area of Palm Springs (very expensive) and has never been used. Apparently the owner of the new house told her agent "get that stupid thing out of my kitchen" which meant replacing an entire slab of granite. I had planned to cut a hole in my counter and install it (requires a drain and 220 which is no problem) but got to thinking it doesn't do anything more than my cheap Oster steamer so why bother? I'll send it to you if you want to keep your dream kitchen screaming all-Gaggenau.</span>

 

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">That photo of your finished loaf doesn't look that bad...it's a meatloaf right?</span>

 

[ea56]

Ralph after reading Joe’s post I realized that there was a second photo to your OP, so I took a look.  That Apple loaf cake looks just like it should based upon the fact that you baked in  a 9”x5” loaf pan. Unless it didn’t taste good I don’t think that there was anything wrong with your baking powder or other ingredients or the method of preparation.

 

As I said before, baking this cake in a 8”x4” loaf pan the next time will result in the higher cake that you were hoping for.  It’s simply a matter of the pan being more on the large side, nothing else.

 

It looks like it would taste good to me.  The cinnamon sugar on the outside does make it resemble a meatloaf like Joe mentioned, but I’ll bet it gives it a delightful flavor.

 

But thanks anyway for this thread which elicited much interest across the board.

 

Eddie

 

 

[norgeway]

Four really makes a big difference

Just try to make biscuits with Gold Medal, lol, I have found it impossible,Im used to soft winter wheat flours, I use Adluh and Virginias Best, self rising for biscuits , all purpose for other stuff, Amish cake flour for cakes, As far as the oven goes, and i will get flack im sure, but no oven made today will hold as even a temperature as a old modulating flame gas oven, it just isnt possible.