christfr
Well-known member
had this buried in the garage and pulled it out to finish got it all apart and well
beggin for a KA part
- Thread starter christfr
- Start date
christfr
Well-known member
and well got everything apart and cleaned the went after the pump and well i broke the impeller.. this is a KA12P does anyone have a source or spare or good used one to sell?? also have a question about the seal under the impeller? is that a rubber seal or stack washer type seal? should i replace the seal there too? does anyone have a seal??
stevet
Well-known member
What possessed you...
to take the impeller apart in the first place? Was the seal leaking or the motor noisy?
Well, I don't have to tell you that there are absolutely no parts available for that unit anymore from Whirlpool. The commercial UM machines upon which the domestic Kitchenaids were based used all metal components for the pumps and would last virtually forever. But still the Brass impellers would sometimes stick to the shafts and we would have to cut them off or gently pry them with a small puller to get them out.
The shaft seal is a 2 piece affair comprising a stationary carbon seal on the motor housing and a rotating ceramic seal held in place on the shaft by a small stainless steel pin in the shaft. This pin also locked the pump impeller in place and drove it. There was no drain impeller on this pump as the dishwashers came either as gravity drain units or had a drain pump attached to the lower end of the motor. Toploader Ed can tell you all about that setup!
I will check tomorrow for you and see if we can still get you a brass impeller for that unit. I will also see if the metal pump parts are still available as well. It may be costly but it will be your only chance to rebuild this unit before even Hobart gets rid of the last parts for it. Ed got one of the last 2 drain valves that seemed to be availabe a few months ago so we may not even have another one of those around.
I will post a response for you when I get back home tomorrow.
I do hope the shaft of the motor is made of stainless steel so that you won't have any appreciable wear on it where the ceramic seal sits. There was a period of time when they made some motors with regular steel rotor shafts and they didnt last very long.
Hang in there.. maybe help is on the way!
to take the impeller apart in the first place? Was the seal leaking or the motor noisy?
Well, I don't have to tell you that there are absolutely no parts available for that unit anymore from Whirlpool. The commercial UM machines upon which the domestic Kitchenaids were based used all metal components for the pumps and would last virtually forever. But still the Brass impellers would sometimes stick to the shafts and we would have to cut them off or gently pry them with a small puller to get them out.
The shaft seal is a 2 piece affair comprising a stationary carbon seal on the motor housing and a rotating ceramic seal held in place on the shaft by a small stainless steel pin in the shaft. This pin also locked the pump impeller in place and drove it. There was no drain impeller on this pump as the dishwashers came either as gravity drain units or had a drain pump attached to the lower end of the motor. Toploader Ed can tell you all about that setup!
I will check tomorrow for you and see if we can still get you a brass impeller for that unit. I will also see if the metal pump parts are still available as well. It may be costly but it will be your only chance to rebuild this unit before even Hobart gets rid of the last parts for it. Ed got one of the last 2 drain valves that seemed to be availabe a few months ago so we may not even have another one of those around.
I will post a response for you when I get back home tomorrow.
I do hope the shaft of the motor is made of stainless steel so that you won't have any appreciable wear on it where the ceramic seal sits. There was a period of time when they made some motors with regular steel rotor shafts and they didnt last very long.
Hang in there.. maybe help is on the way!
christfr
Well-known member
thanks so so much.. let me know.. i took the machine apart to clean and reseal the motor to the cabnet and when the motor was out i heard something in the pump so i took the top off and it was a dried up noodle ha ha. so i thought i take the impeller off and clean it all up and reinstall it but it was stuck on the shaft and when i pulled it broke.. uggg..if you can find something that will work ill be more than happy to buy it from you.. let me know when you have time.. thanks again chris
stevet
Well-known member
Read it and weep, my friend!
Chris,
Please see the attached pictures of the commercial unit breakdown. You will clearly see how similar all the parts were to your domestic machine save for the motor which would not accomodate a drain pump like yours.
I will list the part numbers and current list prices but do please sit down before reading them!
P/N 77107 Seal assy is technically no longer available but there are some available thru Hobart agents throughout the country.
The other items listed are still available thru Hobart and in decent quantities.
So here we go!
77107 Shaft seal assy 43.65
70080 BRASS impeller 223.30
63946 Lower housing 157.20
63989 upper housing 414.00
Since the metal housings are so expensive, I would go for the seal and impeller and be done with it unless your top housing is very worn out from the action of the washarm going around it. The metal housing had a brass bearing installed on the very top so the surfaces would wear better.If the machine was lightly used, you should be able to reuse all the plastic parts and install the brass impeller without any problem.
Let me know what you want to do. I know this is a major investment but there are no other sources for these parts unless you somehow get super lucky and find someone willing to part out a machine and sell you what you need.
I will order them thru my office and we will ship them to you. The only part which will involve additional shipping would be the seal as it would be shipped in from an agent via ups and any parts we order from our distribution center come freight free.
Since the seal is so small and light, I doubt it would be very high to ship.
Hope the pics also help you reinstall it too.
Steve
Chris,
Please see the attached pictures of the commercial unit breakdown. You will clearly see how similar all the parts were to your domestic machine save for the motor which would not accomodate a drain pump like yours.
I will list the part numbers and current list prices but do please sit down before reading them!
P/N 77107 Seal assy is technically no longer available but there are some available thru Hobart agents throughout the country.
The other items listed are still available thru Hobart and in decent quantities.
So here we go!
77107 Shaft seal assy 43.65
70080 BRASS impeller 223.30
63946 Lower housing 157.20
63989 upper housing 414.00
Since the metal housings are so expensive, I would go for the seal and impeller and be done with it unless your top housing is very worn out from the action of the washarm going around it. The metal housing had a brass bearing installed on the very top so the surfaces would wear better.If the machine was lightly used, you should be able to reuse all the plastic parts and install the brass impeller without any problem.
Let me know what you want to do. I know this is a major investment but there are no other sources for these parts unless you somehow get super lucky and find someone willing to part out a machine and sell you what you need.
I will order them thru my office and we will ship them to you. The only part which will involve additional shipping would be the seal as it would be shipped in from an agent via ups and any parts we order from our distribution center come freight free.
Since the seal is so small and light, I doubt it would be very high to ship.
Hope the pics also help you reinstall it too.
Steve
stevet
Well-known member
part numbers
This is the page with the Hobart part numbers.
BTW, Just remembered..if you want, you can contact your own local Hobart office and order them yourself. That way you may be able to save the shipping from Florida to you.
This is the page with the Hobart part numbers.
BTW, Just remembered..if you want, you can contact your own local Hobart office and order them yourself. That way you may be able to save the shipping from Florida to you.
christfr
Well-known member
oh my gosh.. wow.. well i didnt have time to tinker last night to much yard work and this eve is clean the house nighta before i leave for vacation and then ill be gone for a week so let me mull this over and i can mail you when i get back and go from there. ill have to see how broke i am when i get back ha ha.. is there any way to tell if the seal is bad?? id hate to rebuild the machine and find out later that the seal is shot.. is that little tube on the upper side of the motor an oil port of is that some sort of drain? if there is a way to test the seal let me know ill try that.. i do want to save this one its way to cool to let go of.. thanks so so much
stevet
Well-known member
Give it whirl!
Chris,
First of all, that tube you see there, is nothing more than a drain for the seal should it fail! It prevents water from entering the motor bearings. Now don't think it hasn't happened that some "well meaning" plumber hasnt hooked it up to a water supply line!
If there are no tell tale watert stains on the motor housing,the seal is probably okay but just in case it isn't, the seal change is easily done from inside the tank. You can only test it when it is installed so you may have to take the gamble. Again with the ageof these units and lack of parts availabilty, investing in a spare seal would be a good idea.
I hope you come home with some money and am glad you arent going to trash this machine. Keep an eye out on ebay and such for someone selling a commercial version as it would be a good source of parts as well.
If you see a machine and the parts look pretty clean and free of water damage, you should be okay.Just klnow that the motors in them cannot accommodate the drain pump your machine has and you would have to make yours a gravity drain unit. (there are exceptions to this rule but not worth discussing here. It wold be a very, very rare find if the UM you see actually had the Kitchenaid motor installed in it..It did happen for a short time but highly unlikely to find one now.
Enjoy your vacation and hope to hear from you soon
Chris,
First of all, that tube you see there, is nothing more than a drain for the seal should it fail! It prevents water from entering the motor bearings. Now don't think it hasn't happened that some "well meaning" plumber hasnt hooked it up to a water supply line!
If there are no tell tale watert stains on the motor housing,the seal is probably okay but just in case it isn't, the seal change is easily done from inside the tank. You can only test it when it is installed so you may have to take the gamble. Again with the ageof these units and lack of parts availabilty, investing in a spare seal would be a good idea.
I hope you come home with some money and am glad you arent going to trash this machine. Keep an eye out on ebay and such for someone selling a commercial version as it would be a good source of parts as well.
If you see a machine and the parts look pretty clean and free of water damage, you should be okay.Just klnow that the motors in them cannot accommodate the drain pump your machine has and you would have to make yours a gravity drain unit. (there are exceptions to this rule but not worth discussing here. It wold be a very, very rare find if the UM you see actually had the Kitchenaid motor installed in it..It did happen for a short time but highly unlikely to find one now.
Enjoy your vacation and hope to hear from you soon
christfr
Well-known member
there wernt any stains there so i was not sure,, if you blow into that tube you can hear air comming out of the shaft so i dont know what means. let me get home and go from there.. ill be chattin with you for sure.
I know I will have to duck and run when I say this, but could you try to super glue the impeller back together? It just might work, if only until you get the new one.
christfr
Well-known member
well im back.. i prob could try and glue the impeller back but not sure how long that would last. and im not sure if the seal is bad or not. and to change the seal the impeller has to come out.. so question for steve-- do you think i could find the parts online? or should i start saving up the big bucks, ha ha
fltcoils
Member
Thinking out of the $$$ box, what else might work?
It looks a lot like an impeller from a car waterpump... you know?
Wouldn't it be ironic if an impeller from a maytag washer or something else, close to this size, would fit in there?
Another dishwasher impeller, perhaps turned down a bit and sleeved to fit the shaft.
Perhaps not the same flow, but I don't think I see close fits on the top/bottom or OD .... this ain't a jet engine, any impeller that would fit the shaft and can be turned to the right diameter might work.
Think like a cuban.
Will this fit, will it turn, will it give 80% the same performance?
yes? (I know it ain't that simple, but I'm trying to think out of the $200 old parts on ebay box)
It looks a lot like an impeller from a car waterpump... you know?
Wouldn't it be ironic if an impeller from a maytag washer or something else, close to this size, would fit in there?
Another dishwasher impeller, perhaps turned down a bit and sleeved to fit the shaft.
Perhaps not the same flow, but I don't think I see close fits on the top/bottom or OD .... this ain't a jet engine, any impeller that would fit the shaft and can be turned to the right diameter might work.
Think like a cuban.
Will this fit, will it turn, will it give 80% the same performance?
yes? (I know it ain't that simple, but I'm trying to think out of the $200 old parts on ebay box)
stevet
Well-known member
A few answers, my friend!
I think you should proceed with the reinstall of the motor and see if the seal does in fact leak, but you cannot do it without an impeller. If the old one is still stuck, then reinstall the screw that holds it in place and install the motor back on the dishwasher. Let it fill up and see if it holds water. You can run it with the broken impeller without fear of anything happening. Just dont put the pump all back together. Just install the thing in the machine and let it run. It will distribute the water along the bottom of the tank and then drain out.
As far as the impeller, I doubt you will find it online anywhere unless you get another parts donor machine. In which case I would swap the whole motor and pump and not try to take it apart.
The brass impeller is quite a bit heavier than the plastic one you have and it IS actually a precision balanced item, which accounts for its high cost. It was never cheap by any means but Hobart has a habit of simply raising prices on everything across the board and since they probably don't make or even buy them from an outside vendor anymore, they just keep raising the price warranted or not.
I have sent an email to my sister in NY to please check an old tool box in her garage which may actually conatin one of the brass impellers from when I use to work on UM's. I dont remember if it was there when I looked last year as I wasnt really looking for it. Maybe you will get lucky and it will be there and we can make a deal on it. I will advise you as soon as I hear from her.
Meantime, see if the seal hold water and we will take it to the next level after that.
By the way,dont go haywire on the cork gaskets. make yourself a new set even if they are not as nice looking as the originals. If the originals are in really good shape, you may get away with them. Just make sure you lubricate all the screw holes and perhaps chase them out with a tap and then anti seize the hardware before you reassemble all of the pump parts when that time comes. DO anti-sieze the motor mounting screws that hold it to the tank. You will be glad you did as well as the 4 long screws that go thru the pump housings.
I think you should proceed with the reinstall of the motor and see if the seal does in fact leak, but you cannot do it without an impeller. If the old one is still stuck, then reinstall the screw that holds it in place and install the motor back on the dishwasher. Let it fill up and see if it holds water. You can run it with the broken impeller without fear of anything happening. Just dont put the pump all back together. Just install the thing in the machine and let it run. It will distribute the water along the bottom of the tank and then drain out.
As far as the impeller, I doubt you will find it online anywhere unless you get another parts donor machine. In which case I would swap the whole motor and pump and not try to take it apart.
The brass impeller is quite a bit heavier than the plastic one you have and it IS actually a precision balanced item, which accounts for its high cost. It was never cheap by any means but Hobart has a habit of simply raising prices on everything across the board and since they probably don't make or even buy them from an outside vendor anymore, they just keep raising the price warranted or not.
I have sent an email to my sister in NY to please check an old tool box in her garage which may actually conatin one of the brass impellers from when I use to work on UM's. I dont remember if it was there when I looked last year as I wasnt really looking for it. Maybe you will get lucky and it will be there and we can make a deal on it. I will advise you as soon as I hear from her.
Meantime, see if the seal hold water and we will take it to the next level after that.
By the way,dont go haywire on the cork gaskets. make yourself a new set even if they are not as nice looking as the originals. If the originals are in really good shape, you may get away with them. Just make sure you lubricate all the screw holes and perhaps chase them out with a tap and then anti seize the hardware before you reassemble all of the pump parts when that time comes. DO anti-sieze the motor mounting screws that hold it to the tank. You will be glad you did as well as the 4 long screws that go thru the pump housings.
christfr
Well-known member
well i give that a try this weekend. ill install the motor and see if it holds water. i did get gasket material to make new gaskets so ill go from there and see.. let me know if you find an impeller. one of these days she will run again.. i prob should have never taken it apart but i guess you live and learn ha ha
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
~I prob could try and glue the impeller back
Beware of what substances you put in a DW. You will be eating them and their toxicity.
Decades ago my father worked with a research scientist (read: not un-intelligent) in a non-profit organizaion (read: minimal income). They attempted to use some kind of sealant on their DW gasket. Whole family irreparably and permanently poisoned, with major damage to their nervous system and perhaps brains.
Of course I can't find anything on the web at this time to back me up.
Beware of what substances you put in a DW. You will be eating them and their toxicity.
Decades ago my father worked with a research scientist (read: not un-intelligent) in a non-profit organizaion (read: minimal income). They attempted to use some kind of sealant on their DW gasket. Whole family irreparably and permanently poisoned, with major damage to their nervous system and perhaps brains.
Of course I can't find anything on the web at this time to back me up.
christfr
Well-known member
well i did check out the car type impellers that we have here at work but none come close so im gonna wait and see if steve can come up with one.. oh yes and dear mr togg.. i would not mind seeing a few pretty colors but dont think id enjoy the brain damage to much.. i did buy some type of glue stuff but i will read the lable before i use it
