Can Boil Washes Be Harmful?

[lederstiefel1]

Yeah MRX - you named it!
Would have taken me ages to write that in English...poohh!!

Amylase comes from the word amylum which is Latin and means starch whereas Glycoidase comes from Greek and glycos means honey/sugar/sweet. -ase is the ending for the Greek word for destroying or breaking down/up. So both mean "carbon-hydrates up-breakers"...smile.

Didn't know that Persil contains mannanase, but I do not see the reason for it...

Ralf

 

[panthera]

Gums

I had to look this up, but the mannan polysaccharide group, when it's at home, are simply gums.
Locust bean gum, guar gum...all those additives to just about every food.
Since the other enzymes can't break these down, stains like chocolate ice cream and such are awful hard to remove without higher temperatures and washing times.
This enzyme breaks the gums in them down and permits much faster stain removal at lower temperatures.
According to the literature I scanned (and it was mainly patents for this approach, so not necessairly 100% to be trusted) this particulary enzyme group is very cheap to produce, stable and doesn't interfer with the other enzymes.
And now I know the rest of the story.
For the Europeans: E-numbers E412 and E410 are the two gums mentioned.

 

[lederstiefel1]

Well done Keven!!
Thank-you, I've learnt again something!

Ralf

 

[launderess]

P&G has a patent on mannanase as well, and IIRC it can be found in Tide.

As have stated often, modern TOL enzyme containing detergents are one of the reasons the average wash temperature on both sides of the pond is now around 100F. Enzymes work best at 100F to 140F, and activated oxygen bleach within the same range. Sodium percarbonate does not need an activator and works in the same lower range. All this adds up to the reason we see less and less boil washing. It also explains in a great part the increase of laundry detergent liquids, which use enzymes and surfactants to replace washing soda and other salts commonly used for laundry.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cach...ml+Mannanase+laundry&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

 

[MrX]

The UK's a bit fixated on non-bio

I don't understand why the UK's so fixated on non-bio detergents. There are perfectly skin-safe bio detergents out there.

I actually find some of the non bio formulations pretty harsh. I'd far rather see Persil Sensitive with enzymes and with some genuine skin-friendly forumulation

 

[MrX]

P&G Ariel seems to use Mannaway (Novozyme)

Ariel seems to be using: This Novozyme (Denmark) ingredient.

http://www.novozymes.com/en/MainStr...etergents/Stain+Removal/Mannaway/Mannaway.htm

 

[MrX]

Fabric smoothing

I think the UK detergents are predominantly using Dimethicone and other softeners to achieve smoothness rather than enzymes to eat up fluff.

 

[hoovermatic]

It occured to me yesterday that the days of worrying about stains not coming out in the wash are long gone. I very carelessly opened a bottle of Ribena in the kitchen whilst squeezing the bottle too hard. The result was a spray of blackcurrant juice all over the ceiling and all down a white bathsheet. I thought about pretreating it there and then but couldn't put the machine on for one towel. I finally washed it yesterday with no Vanish spray, which it would normally get. Washed a full load at 30 degrees with Ariel and the blackcurrant has come right out. Detergents are so much better than they used to be.

 

[hoovermatic]

forgot to say

the only harm boil washes cause are undue wear and tear on clothing and to your electricity/gas bill. When you actually pay the bills, you realise just how wasteful it is.

 

[launderess]

Yes, detergents have come along way, which as influenced washing machine designs.

Pre-washes that were almost always part of a "normal" cycle, are now an option, that is if it can be found at all.

Goes without saying that washing temperatures have come down, as well as the requirement for heavy beating about of laundry. It is entirely possible to soak laundry clean with a good TOL modern detergent with damn good results.

Only stains one pre-treats these days are blood, and certian others, to make sure they are removed in the wash. Otherwise don't bother as have found TOL detergents like Tide and Persil do the job quite well. When in doubt bung a tablespoon or so of oxygen bleach or Vanish.

L.

 

[MrX]

Blood comes right out with both Ariel and Persil

I've never found any need to pre-treat anything. Stuff comes out clean, that particular 'sweat stain' is rather tough though as it's been caused by a reaction between antiperspirant and optical brighteners. The only way to remove it is with very long soaks.

I would avoid using antiperspirants that create such stains. It's usually an indication that the formula of the spray/roll on is way too strong. There are plenty of good non-staining antiperspirants out there

I think the best way to think of a modern front loader washing machine is as a Biochemical Reactor.

Your clothes are basically gently saturated with a concentrated solution of water and highly complex cleaning agents. Actually calling it a detergent is not giving it it's correct definition, it's far from simply detergent.

30°C to 40°C is the ideal temperature to activate the enzymes and the best machines will be designed to do a profile heat warming the water up gently to maximise the cleaning agents' effectiveness.

Normally you shouldn't have any problem shifting stains, but if you do, just increase the soak and wash time. Longer cool/warm washes don't really use that much power as it's only the motor that's running and it's quite a small amount of water to keep warm. Doing a full boil wash is pretty wasteful of energy.

For normally dirty items, i.e. just sweat and minor staining, a very short wash with a TOL detergent + a good rinse cycle should be more than sufficient and much better for your clothes.

Also, using a good liquid fabric conditioner, like Comfort, keeps clothes in much better shape for longer by protecting the fibres. In much the same way as using a good conditioner on your hair will keep it in good shape.

Boil washing really should only be used for sanitisation of laundry such as bed linen and towels and only where absolutely necessary.

The only thing I would say is that if you're almost always washing at 30C, it's worth running a hot wash once in a while just to make sure the machine gets a chance to flush out any residues of detergent and conditioner and kills off any bacteria growth which can cause your machine to smell bad.

Although, that being said, I have never really noticed any issue with smells from our machine and we rarely if ever do very hot washes.

 

[lederstiefel1]

Temperatures...

As I have already mentioned here a while ago, we do lots of coldwash as there's no hot water tap in the basement, for 2 years in our SpeedQueen TL with ARIEL Cold Active Powder meanwhile - and we do not have any problems!

Ralf

 

[hoovermatic]

Mystery mould......

It has always puzzled me that so many problems are experienced with slime etc in FL machines, or any machine come to that. For as long as I can remember, my Mum always left all the lids up on her twin tubs for at least overnight before packing it away again. When she got her Bendix FL in 1981, and from that day on, the only time the door is fully closed is when it is in operation. In 26 years, she has never had a problem with mould/slime/mildew. She has never done a maintainance wash. Once a month, she removes the dispenser drawer and cleans it and she will check the filter for obstructions.

I have a HATL and if I need to check the sump filter for coins etc, I have to remove the only baffle in the drum to access the filter in the outer drum. It gives you a good chance to look around the state of the inner drum and the seals etc and I have never had a problem with slime etc.

I would suggest that anyone who does needs to get into the routine of allowing the machine to 'air' between loads and do not close doors/lids between cycles. This, in my experience should eliminate such problems.

 

[lavamat_jon]

Paul,

I think part of mould/mildew problems is a combination of not using the recommended amount of detergent, and not leaving the door open. However I have to say that my nana, who uses two tablets of detergent as do I in similar water conditions - she only lives a 5 minute walk round the corner, rarely washes above 40*C and never closes her washer door, but is starting to get mould on the seal her almost 2 year old WF340 and it can smell musty inside. I suggested to her that she did a 95*C maintenance wash and voila her machine was right as rain again... so I think there is a link between lack of high temperature washes and build up of mould mildew. One of my friends has a new Miele, approximately the same age as mum's and they never wash above 40*C, and again even with leaving the door open their seal is beginning to cake with mould. I can add to this by saying that we regularly use 60*C or above at least 3 times a week for bedding and towels, and we've never had mould problems. To add more confusion though we always had mould issues with the Bosch, even with high temperature washers so it probably is machine-, habit-, water-, geography- and detergent-dependent as to whether mould problems occur or not.

Thus the easy way for people who would otherwise get these problems would be to run a maintenance wash every month if hot washes aren't used as regularly as they should be - even the manual for my washing machine states this so there must be some element of truth in maintenance washes.

I forecast this to be an increasing problem with us being urged to wash at even lower temperatures nowadays, and having seen such problems for myself and seen the amount of posts on the internet I think you're probably one of the lucky ones, along with myself, who've never experienced mould problems personally in the machine purely from following good habits.

Jon

 

[MrX]

to solve mould

Place 1 good quality dishwasher tablet/standard dose dishwasher powder into the drum.
Fill machine to a high level
Run at 95C

Problem mould will be no more!

Part of the problem is that as some machines never fill up deep enough to wash out the rubber seal with hot water, it's just gently steamed all the time.

 

[launderess]

Actually the amount of enzymes in laundry detergents/products is rather small. The little buggers reproduce in response to digesting (read eating) whatever substance they are supposed to be attacking, under the right conditions (moisture and right temperature). Protease simply keeps eating protien, and so forth.

In theory drying and or high temperatures should kill off enzymes, but that is not always the case as both man altered and natural enzymes can survive a wide range of temperatures. This is why some people can develop allergic reactions to enzyme residue on laundry. In the presence of moisture and heat, the enzymes simply "come alive" as it were and begin eating protien. Sadly human skin and other parts/substances are made of protien, so hence the nasty rash. It is usually in the groin, underarms, and other warm/moist places such things occur. It is this reaction that lead the housewives and mothers of the UK to literally almost threaten the makers of Persil with bodily harm if they followed though with their plans to withdrawn non-bio Persil from the market.

 

[MrX]

That's actually an urban legend of some sort

Laundress,

Sorry to disagree with you there, but that's actually not biologically possible. Enzymes are simply proteins that behave as catalysts i.e. they accelerate chemical reactions. In the case of laundry washing they simply make it possible for various substances that stain fabric to hydrolyse in water or aid reactions with other components in the detergent.

The enzymes are not living organisms and cannot reproduce. They are proteins though and do function much better at about 30-45C. When you heat the water to a very high temp. you will denature them and they will be relatively useless, which is why there's very little point in starting with hot water and why front loaders heat the water from cold through a profile of temps.

The enzymes are originally produced, in a big plant somewhere using live organisms. They may even be genetically engineered to produce certain enzymes. However, these are NOT present in your laundry or dishwashing detergent!

Your clothes are being cleaned with the help of enzymes, not bacteria or other micro organisms so there's nothing alive on your clothes at any stage during the wash or afterwards.

The problems with people reacting to enzymes not rinsed off are similar to a reaction to a chemical i.e. it may irritate your skin / cause a mild reaction on your skin.

To be honest, I think the skin allergy link to enzymes is vastly over played. There are other ingredients in detergents that are much more likely to produce a violent reaction e.g. the bleaching agents and the surfactants.

The key is good rinsing. The enzymes are only enzymes, they are not alive, can't multiply or do anything of the sort.

 

[lederstiefel1]

MRX

Yes, MRX, you are right to say so! I fully agree with you concerning the enzymes! But I have also to disagree with you in the point concerning the tensides and the bleaching agents. If you go and ask dermatologists they tell you that they have the same problems with their patients if they use certain shampoos, deodorants and perfumes... It's most of the time the scents of the detergents and other stuff, the more as they are made to stay even after a thorough rinsing! These are made from chemicals that irritate the skin and some even worse! And as nothing is scent-free anymore today, actually, people's immune-system is overreacting against these chemicals more and more often!
This is to be seen when people who use natural bar-soap for showering and do not use any perfume and who wash with special detergents (i.e. PERSIL sensitive) and who leave the softener away as well, do not have these skin-problems but will have it immediately returned when switching back to scented soap or softener or shower-gel and shampoo as well as perfumes and other stuff!
My mate and I never had any problems with our skin until we brought a package TIDE with bleach from New York home and washed with it... Our skin became dry and itchy and we had to stop using it; now it's standing in the cellar...

Ralf

 

[MrX]

I would agree there the scents could potentially cause problems, also some of the optical brighteners ..

As for the scents, I know that some people who react to Bold but not Ariel even though the two have almost identical ingredients. Same with Persil and Surf

However, many people do have problems with particular surfactants and some rinse cycles can be pretty pathetic.

Ironically, it's often much worse in delicate cycles with many people use for delicate items which may be worn much closer to your skin e.g. underwear

The key to good rinsing seems to be the interim spin or, if that's not possible plenty of water.

As for allergies, I think it's really a case of finding the detergent that you don't react to and sticking with it. Bio/Non-Bio doesn't come into it.

E.g. I react very badly to Persil non bio! Yet don't react at all to the bio version!!!

 

[lederstiefel1]

MRX

Hi, MRX, that is intersting and is defenitely a proof for the theory of the scents as the elicitor of the skin-reactions!

Yes, you are right in saying so about these modern "rinse cycles" that actually do not deserve the name rinse at all, do they?
Best is: a good amount of water in each rinse PLUS an intermediate spin - and this not only twice or thrice but four or five times!

Ralf