Can someone explain religion to me?

[mattl]

I've been mulling whether to post this or not, and opted to post. Of course Robert is free to kill and pull this thread at will if gets too acrimonious.

I've been thinking about religion after reading a couple of threads here, one that became very heated resulting in someones suspension and anther's decision (hopefully reconsidered...) to leave. Well here goes - what makes you believe in the religion you subscribe to? Why is it part of your reality? I was raised Catholic but today I'd describe myself as an agnostic on even days and an atheist on odd days.

I can't comprehend a "supreme being" that would want to be worshiped. Does anyone here want to be worshiped by a lesser creature? Could you imaging what that would be like? Religions espouse that we cannot comprehend god, and yet they comprehend that a god wants to be worshiped. Or, that by praying you could change a supposedly all powerful, all seeing, being's course of action. If that being was omniscient, would that being not know you would pray at some point in the future? If, as many say, god has a plan, or god meant it to be, why would you pray to alter that plan? Does anyone think our pets should pray to us since we are as incomprehensible to them as a god is to us? I'm not trying to get too philosophical here, but I have difficulty with the dichotomy.

To me so much of religion is based in 12th and 13th century feudalism. With Kings, Lords, etc. who are so far above the average serf that they are regarded with a sort of reverence. So many prayers and rituals in religion echo that sensibility to me. What is it in these rituals that attract people to them? Is it a comfort factor for those of you who believe? Is it because you were raised in a certain religion?

I'm trying to understand why some people are so devoted to something I honestly can't comprehend. The hatred that spews toward the Gay/Lesbian aspect of our culture from religious groups is rabid at times. That sports figures and actors thank god for their good fortune when they win a game or an award puzzles me - what made their opponents unworthy of god's support? The wars, pain and suffering that religion has brought us are undeniable, yet a great many people still choose to believe.

I'm in no way trying to start a flame war here. I'm not asking to have my beliefs challenged or changed and I have no desire to change anyone else's views - I'm just trying to get a better understanding of something that is greatly affecting our culture. So, if you believe -why do you believe? Have you ever questioned your beliefs?

 

[rp2813]

Good post Matt. You've captured a lot of my same views and questions. I'm very jaded about the fact that almost to a fault, religious organizations are among the wealthiest entities in the world. It seems something is very wrong with that picture. The Vatican on one hand preaches poverty and selflessness and on the other, is so obscenely wealthy that it would make an oil company exec blush. Huh?

I think that belief in a supreme being of some kind has a lot to do with human nature. It seems even tribal cultures that went undiscovered until the 20th century had some form of offering to a higher power. Look at the various cultures in ancient Mexico and the human sacrifices they'd make to various dieties. How this all got started seems to be the $64K question. That cultures from across the globe all have had some sort of religion over the ages, fosters the question of whether one incident triggered a domino effect that hit everywhere in the ancient world, far before communication across long distances was even a concept. Could it be that today's modern religious scammers are just following a routine that began many eons ago by other hucksters who found it a great way to make big bucks? It's so easy to draw parallels between preaching the fear of a god and passing the collection basket vs. the underworld's practice of extorting "protection" money.

This is the sort of thing I'd like to see some discussion about. The whole modern preaching of hatred towards others is an entirely different animal than the actual origins of various religions over the ages, so as long as that scenario is left out of the discussion there should be few flames contained in this thread. Or so one would hope.

Ralph

 

[maytagbear]

Not every group of religious persons

wants to condemn others, including gay and lesbian others.

Secondly, maybe I am a weak person, but I need to believe, to act, as if there is (at least) a Guiding Principle above (admittedly limited) human intelligence. I find the universe to be completely incomprehensible without.

As for your last question, if it worth believing in, it is worth questioning. Of course I have my doubts, and will continue to have doubts.

I hate to talk about my denomination (United Church of Christ,) and my congregation (Kent United Church of Christ,) because it sounds like bragging, but we do offer an extravagant welcome. Our most recent Moderator ("President of the congregation") is an out, partnered, childrened lesbian. Our new Senior Minster is an out, partnered, dogged (as opposed to childrened) gay man.

The United Church of Christ was the first to ordain women (our roots are Congregational and others,) and the Congregationalists ordained a woman in 1850. We ordained an openly gay, noncelibate man in 1972.

We in Kent give close to 80% of our budget (after expenses) to Outreach projects, including local (food pantry, homeless veterans shelter) and global missions. Our rooms have meetings of the domestic violence shelter, and other groups.

We try to put loving-kindness into action. Most of the time, we come very close.

I am out in the congregation.

Yes, there are groups that do discriminate. I just try not to waste my time on them.

Link is to the national UCC site.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

Home - United Church of Christ

United in Spirit and inspired by God’s grace, we welcome all, love all, and seek justice for all. We are the United Church of Christ. Keep up with how God

ucc.org

 

[brettsomers]

Human existence and purpose is baffling. Many feel the need to explain it, or make reason of it. Humanity also needs hope to keep going. Religion/faith can provide purpose and guidance, and can help make sense of our very temporary existence in this life.

IMHO

 

[toggleswitch2]

Incorrectly applied it is a means of ouvert social control.

Properly applied, it can be a source of great comfort to believe we are simply not here to be "matter" (i.e. to take up space and have weight).

The limitedness of human way-of-thought leads to all ills including greed, insecurity, fear, crime, control. Hopefully "good" religion teaches how to overcome these and flourish while being good to others, and creating utopia on Earth.

 

[mattl]

I know I was influenced by religion...

But it does not enter into my daily thoughts of how to live my life. Many of the tenets of religion are just good common sense, and because of that many are the basis for our laws. On my agnostic days I think "well maybe there is some greater force out there" but that is the extent of it. I have no desire to please this higher power by my actions and I do not live my life guided by what a god might want. Heck, I can even imagine we are just a lab experiment in some vast laboratory. Maybe we are a molecule on a incomprehensible table leg in some being's room.

To me there is too much randomness in the world, look at all the deaths in China, infants and kids who in no way could have angered a god perished with countless others. If a god had deemed that to happen for what ever reason that would not be a god I'd want to be around.

On my perverse days I'd like to believe in reincarnation, all those that make the world a worse place would get to suffer the pain they caused the next time around.

 

[mattl]

Here is an interesting article

Excerpt:

"Are we "hard-wired" to believe in God? Interesting evidence from cognitive neuroscience suggests that certain beliefs come naturally to us, as a by-product of the way our thinking processes evolved. It seems that we have a tendency to detect agents at work in the world around us, and to attribute intentions to them. In the struggle for survival that underpins natural selection, a cognitive system that is tuned to purposeful agents should be highly adaptive."

Joanna Collicutt : Face to faith

Joanna Collicutt: Darwin's epiphany was like the kind of enlightenment that leads to faith

www.guardian.co.uk

 

[westyslantfront]

I will supplement Maytagbear's post.

As I have posted in other threads, I first wish to get a definition of "Christianist". I do not understand as I have never heard that phrase before.
Yes, some religions have twisted the Bible to suit their political agenda. Some religions preach more hatred than love.
Nevertheless, one can never generalize. I have met many disenchanted Roman Catholics over the years.
I am grateful that I grew up in the Episcopal Church where for the most part, we have "Unity Through Diversity".
My hometowwn parish in New York City, my parish in California for the 7 years that I lived there, and now my parish here in Tucson have all been loving and nurturing for me and my family.
My family is now all deceased but when the time came, clergy and congregation were there to support me.
We have women priests, bishops, and now the head of the entire
American Episcopal Church is a woman. We have openly gay priests and the Episcopal Bishop of New Hamshire, Gene Robinson is openly gay and lives openly with his partner.
Sure there are some people who are not pleased with it but the majority of Episcopalians do not have any problems with women or gay clergy.
We must all accept and respect each other, whatever our beliefs are. I do not believe in proselytizing or trying to convert others to my beliefs, but to respect others for their right to have their own beliefs, however, by the same token, I must be respected for my beliefs.
I am well known in my parish here in Tucson, Az. and yes, the clergy and the congregation is aware that I am gay. I was warmly received into the congregation on my first day and am respected by everyone. I consider it a blessing for the warmth and support I receive from clergy and congregation.
Again, I reiterate that we must never generalize and condemn all religions but to examine each one objectively.

Ross

 

[mattl]

Question --

Ross, you say:

"My hometowwn parish in New York City, my parish in California for the 7 years that I lived there, and now my parish here in Tucson have all been loving and nurturing for me and my family.
My family is now all deceased but when the time came, clergy and congregation were there to support me. "

But how is that a function of religion? Could someone who was not religious have done the same thing? I thing so. Your example there is more one of community rather than religion. Yo go on to give example of progressiveness in your chosen faith, all commendable, but you haven't touched on my original question -- why do you believe?

 

[mattl]

Hmmm.

After reading this I may have to reconsider my even days.

Superagnosticman III: Dark Matter

To say science has only just discovered dark matter, so how do you know god isn't out there, too, is to misunderstand the nature of science and the nature of religion.

www.huffingtonpost.com

 

[mattl]

Sorry about the typo's...

Just trying to get dinner going, typing too fast.

 

[gansky1]

Christianist

This term was "coined" by Andrew Sullivan, a conservative gay columnist to describe those Christians who wish to use their numbers and influence to wield political power and effect change in government policy bringing it more in line with their own beliefs and value systems. You can read more specific, in depth at the link below.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9997

 

[westyslantfront]

Hi Matt. Some of my friends who are not affiliated with a particular faith were very supportive when I needed it. Some of my friends are religious and some are not but we are friends most of all. As to the support from the people in my parish, their support was out of friendship and respect.
Why do I believe? That is personal and I do not need to explain to anyone and by the same token, other people do not need to explain to me why they believe or don't believe. That is all very personal. I would say that I belong to a community of faith but also a community of warmth and love.

Hi Greg. Thank you for the link. I will read it. Hope all is well in Omaha and you do not have too much humidity there.

Ross

 

[laundromat]

I grew up with many health issues including epilepsy and was physicaly,sexualy and verbaly abused.I was treated as thow I was mentaly retarded and placed in numerous schools for handicaped children.Forunately my teacher,Darla Rockman,Whom I sill know and love,saw that I was far from being retarded and should be placed in a school for exceptional children questioning my parent's decission to place me in her school.I was sent a tutor who evaluated my IQ and said to my parents that at the age of 8,I had the same vocabulary as that of a normal 7th grader.I did not use any double negatives"Ain't got no,"and was able to make comon sentences using the correct verbage.

Throughout my adolesence,I was sexualy and physicaly tortured and abused.I lef home and went into a Christian comunity where I excepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior.I was very active but then as I assumed that the head of our church(elder)could do no wrong and was trustworthy to the point I could put my life in his hands,I was sodomised by him.It put my in a "tailspin" and I became completely confused and left the church.

I prety much stayed away and would feel uncomfortable even looking at a church.My life was one of drugs,alcohol,unlimited open,unsafe gay sex and three atempted suicides.I was on a one way trip to nowhere and saw no hope of ever succeeding in anything.I hated who I thought God was and questione His "allowing these horrific things"to happen to me of all people.It wasn't until I realised how wrong I was that I found out who God realy is.

One day,I felt like going to church.It was more of a "I told you so"type of visit I wanted to try.I went to a non-denominational church where they preached the Bible w/out any kind of dress code other than "come as you are"and as the sermon began,the guest preacher was a "reformed"homosexual.He spoke about how so many churches make gay people feel ashamed,hated,unwelcome and unforgiven.He said that "true Christians are to love one another and just as much as God has forgiven us for all of our sins and transgressions by sending His only begotten son,Jesus Christ,to die on the cross and shed His blood for the forgiveness of our sins then after being dead for three days,He reapeared in the flesh then rose up to sit on the right hand of God the father.A loving father who would go that far to be sure we as his children had a chance to be on the same side of Him as Jesus is not going to let us go that easily."At that very moment,it felt to me as thow a ton of bricks were lifted up off of me and I've been going there ever since.

Not once has anyone there ever aproached or questioned my sexuality and I have become involved in a lot of the activities including being an usher.I also belong to a seperate fellowship of tweny who meet once a month at the same couple's home.We speak about individual needs and concerns that may need to be prayed about or for.The church itself on sundays averages a headcount of 450 in one sitting not including the 200+children from newborns to teenagers.A seprate building made to look just like a castle is set up for many different types of classes just for them.

We take in tons of different foods and on thusdays,homeless,low income and handicaped folks come and are given two weeks worth of real nice,nutricious groceries FREE.no one is turned down and hose who have special needs are aken care of too.a few weeks ago,here were some members who raised their hands when our pastor asked who was in financial need.We all reached in our pockets and gave them a total of $7,500!All in 10 minutes or less!They were legitamate?needs two of which were medical.

So,it isn't realy any kind of special tradition or method oher than love.My mistake?I gave a human being who was no beter than anybody else the position of being up on a pedistal at the same level as God.I saw him as someone who was perfect and could do no wrong.I had to forgive him.I also had to forgive myself.I gave my life back to Jesus and trust His love,understanding,grace and compassion to lead me down the right path.So far He's been worthy of He's done for me and I trust that through my faith and prayers for myself and all the ones I pray with and for He'll guide me down the right path.All of us are welcome o be in His family.No exceptions.

 

[mattl]

Ross, that is fine, I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

I came to my conclusions after a period of time. I'll be honest - I never explored other religions, but then I've never been drawn to a religion.

 

[laundromat]

my "T"key is messed up,Sorry!I have to hit it real hard.

 

[vacuumfreeeke]

I stopped believeing!

I was raised Baptist and became Pentecostal as a young teenager. When I realized I was gay at about 15, SEVERAL churches try to "deliver" me from the "sin" of homosexuality. When their attempts of screaming at me in tongues and pushing me down on the floor failed, they got angry and told me I was not welcome in the church until or unless I would repent and become righteous. I became a little disillusioned then, but still wanted to believe. I sought out some gay churches (www.joymcc.org and www.oasisfellowship.org), but quickly realized they were nothing more than a money hungry hook-up joint.

My ex showed me movie that can be found on Google called Ziet Geist. Of course that didn't make my mind up for me, but it was an eye opener. I realized religion does not make any sense at all (to me at least). A "magical" being who will send you to burning flames if you don't worship his son (who is really himself in another form) for dying on a cross to save your soul... I cannot bring myself to believe that! This questioning has been been going on for a couple years, but the first time I actually started telling other people that I was atheist/agnostic was about two months ago. I was SHCOCKED at the judgemental reactions I got! But, it feels so liberating!

I've always wondered if every religion claims to be the right one, how can any of them be. As a true Christian, one must believe that EVERY other religion is WRONG and that anyone who doesn't believe in their Jesus is going straight to this place called hell when they die... that is crazy to me! How can I live my life according to a book that was written by other people? I really think that organized religion is just in place to control and scare other people.

I don't pray, or read the Bible anymore, but I do still like Christan music. I love the chanty, fast, upbeat music, and listen to it almost exclusively even though I'm *starting* to diversify a little more.

I was researching online, and saw a web site from a Baptist church in my area that actually claims it is a sin to swim in a bathing suit (they want more modesty apparently)... and a sin engage in "mixed bathing". Wonder how they'd feel about a gay bathhouse... after all, everyone is the same gender and no one wears a bathing suit. I ALMOST e-mailed them that question! Just kind of confirmed how silly it all is (for me anyway).

I'm 24 now, and my entire family hasn't spoken to me since I was 19 because of feelings about homosexuality inspired by religion. Please sign me up to be a member of that religion... sounds like "fun".

Of course I still respect people who believe... I just don't happen to be one of them.

Interesting topic!

 

[j2400]

I'm not sure I can really answer the original question. I guess I can--I can say that I do believe in a higher power, I always have, and I've never questioned that belief (although my view of God has changed). But coming up with an answer of why...well, I'm not sure I can say anything that is convincing. I think even C.S. Lewis commented about the trouble of proving, scientifically, that there is a God.

I will, however, comment that I think it can be worth exploring other religions. Maybe one will click in a way that previous experiences didn't. If nothing else, one can learn things. I, myself, have had an amazing range of experiences. Nothing compared to some people, but probably I've had more diversity than the average person. To give a few examples, at one time or another, I've: attended Christmas Eve services in an Episcopal church; had pleasant talks with Mormon missionaries, attended Easter services and a Jewish-style Passover Seder at a very liberal we-embrace-all-paths-to-God church; participated in a Wiccan ceremony; and even attended Christmas Eve services in a conservative Christian church. Some of my experiences have been profound. Some have given me a better view and understanding of traditions I don't subscribe to.

 

[j2400]

Vacuumfreeeke asks some good questions.

First, as others have pointed out, not every church condemns gays. And not all gay friendly churches are going to be money hungry hook up joints.

Another point: not every church will force a "our vision, or else!" view.

As for the diversity of churches, each with it's own view, I have an opinion. Please note: it's my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree. I think there are different churches (both entire religion traditions--say, Christian vs. Buddist--and denominations--Lutheran vs. Baptist) partly because of our limitations as people. We're different. We are at different points spiritually. Thus, there are different churches to match different people, and different needs.