Convert from Electric Baseboard Heating to ???

[countryguy]

Where I live natural gas is not available. Currently my house is heated by electric baseboard heaters (very expensive) as well as a wood burning stove. The wood stove is the primary source of heat when I am home. While at work, the baseboard heaters take over. Due to the rising cost of electricity and the increase in cost of a cord of wood as well as the inconvenience, I have been thinking of changing the heating system. I thought perhaps removing the wood stove, replacing it with a hot water boiler fueled by propane and replacing the electric baseboard heaters with hot water radiant heaters. I would also get rid of the electric water heater and either have a water heater that is heated by the propane boiler or perhaps install one of those tankless water heaters. I have a finished basement however it has a suspended ceiling so it wouldn't be too much of a problem to run the hot water lines to each room of the house. The reason I would choose propane over oil is that I already have a full house back up generator powered by propane and have the propane tanks in place.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Gary

 

[yogitunes]

Yes...go with the boiler with the hot water heater, we had one at the last house, just in gas but the same idea, it was a TELEDYNE LAARS system, very small 24X24 if even that, and a seperate "Water Jacket" hot water storage tank (40gal)...this had an intelligence to switch back and forth between heating and hot water in the blink of an eye,because of the valving in a series, and it can be zoned to heat only certain rooms like bedrooms at night and living areas during the day, all programmed automatically, with out sacrifice, never ran out of hot water even in long showers while running the dishwasher and washer(HE), and super efficient, it "CLAMS" up tight closing off all ports of air in and out to conserve every bit of heat in the unit, you can watch it make movements and changes, absolutely amazing, if I had to go with baseboard heat again, I want the same unit...Ask about this brand at your local plumbling supply or plummer, it should be available in your area!

as for the tankless HW heater, a buddy has one in his new home, digital temp select, set at 160 degrees, this is great for on demand, and showers can go forever as long as that is a very low flow shower head and the only thing running at the time, can't run a sink and shower at the same time, and when running the HE washer, by the time the hot water gets there its already filled, and their in the same utility room, these are not good for FULL FLO fill ups like the jacuzzi, you really need storage for a tub like this, the concept is great for only heating what and when you need it, but to run a whole house with several things going, there are disadvantages...but thats what I observed!

hope this helps

 

[panthera]

I suspect

Now that the Republicans are gone (yee-haw!) we will soon see some tax-refund policies or direct monies earmarked for upgrading systems like yours.
Maybe you should research now and keep your eyes open for what's coming up?

 

[jmm63]

A friend of mine has a house in New Hampshire with pretty much the same set up that you described. Electric everything and a wood burning stove. He kept everything but added some very neat propane heaters. One in the garage (keeps pipes from freezing) one in the lower level and one on the main level. They are fan driven warm air heaters and they really do an amazing job and very efficient. I've attached a link of a similar model. I'm thinking about adding one in my addition since its freezing all the time.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453060130&linkfrom=shopzilla

 

[yogitunes]

Panthera is right!...
also check with you utilty company...they financed mine into my bill for 20.00 more a month, with the budget plan, and had major rebates, this whole system installed only cost me 1500.00, I already had the radiators in the house though....yours may be a little higher, but worth checking into... can't hurt...

 

[toggleswitch2]

Great idea.

I'd say add a hot water propane-fired boiler that vents through a side-wall, and keep the wood-burning stove. You won't need a chimney for the boiler then.

Add as many zones as you can to be able to conserve fuel. Use a check-valve and add anti-freeze to the system for blackouts and such.

Seaking of blackouts, I always recommend some type of vented non-electric gas-fired heater for such events. (Of course one that will run when the elctric is out). Similarly if this gets expensive (to buy a backup heater) a standard gas-fired storage-type hot water heater with a radiator in the circuit will work due to the natural convection flow of the heated water. Just be sure to open [or avoid having] the flow-control valve. These are designed to stop the natural convection flow of heated water.

 

[rayjay]

Teledyne Laars

Hey Martin. I have a split level house which is three levels and hard to heat and cool. I have gas forced hot air, and I also had an electric baseboard heater in the second family room addition. Two years ago I had my friend (who is a heating contractor), intall a TELEDYNE LAARS hot water system for the first level which is on a concrete slab. There are 4 rooms. This boiler is fantastic, I have heat coming throught the baseboards in a few min. It keeps the lowver level nice and warm, and I still use the forced air for the other two levels. Someday I would like to get another boiler for the other two levels, plug up all the holes in the walls from the registers and have baseboard heat. My contractor put in the slimmer baseboards made by Stirling.

 

[toggleswitch2]

Another thought is, if you own a "ranch" (one level home). One could put a vertical gas-fired furnace in the attic and deliver heated air through vents in the ceiling, but one MUST have a low-wall or floor return to avoid stratification.

This may add value to your home if central-air is needed and desirable in your area, as it can be integrated into the system at a very low cost.

Also, fewer pipes to freeze!

 

[countryguy]

Panthera,

The reason that I am thinking of converting now is that the Ontario government is offering a 15% tax deduction per $1000 spent above $1000 up to $10,000 on all home renovations ie. $150 per $1000 up to a maximum of $1350. Also the government will provide grants if a household energy audit is performed, and then the recommended fixes are done.

Blackouts are the exact reason that we installed a whole house back up generator 2 years ago. It has been a life saver literally since both my partner and I have sleep apnea and cannot sleep without our cpap machines. Just a couple of weeks ago our electricity was out for 4 hours but everything in the house kept on running. We live in the country and rely on electricity to run the water pump and the sewage pump.

With the hot water heating, how is the humidity level affected? too dry? Currently I have to run a de-humidifier through out the winter months because there is too much humidity.

I don't know of anyone that has their furnace located outside the heated space of the home ie. the attic. In this cold climate I don't think it would work very well.

Thanks for all the info guys.

Gary

 

[toggleswitch2]

~With the hot water heating, how is the humidity level affected? too dry? Currently I have to run a de-humidifier through out the winter months because there is too much humidity.

Dehumidifier? Really? In winter? I have never heard of that.

The old wive's tale is that steam and hot water heat is moister and dries the air out less than warm-air heat. I think that is not really based on science or merit, but the users' simply assume that water (or steam) as the heat-transfer medium automatically means some gets into the room. WRONG!

Actually a "GOOD" warm-air system (say with multiple fans speeds) and with proper accessories such as air-cleaner, humdiifer, dehumidifer cental A/C, ultra- violet air purifier etc. is a tad bit more flexible as to climate control options and possiblites. A hydronic (hot water) system heats; period.

 

[countryguy]

Toggles,

So are you saying that a hot water system does not affect the humidity level at all? Before I had all the windows/doors changed in the house I had to run a humidifier in the winter. Now it is the opposite. Even with the de-humidifier, there is water on the window ledges in the morning. And I also have exhaust fans in the bathroom and kitchen.

Gary

 

[toggleswitch2]

Yes. Just my opinion. In my belief the manner of adding heat to a home does not affect humdity levels (unless of course your clothes dryer is pumping out heat and humidity into a space).

But others do say that that a warm-air systesm does dry the air more than a hydronic one.

This is not pysically possible if the hydronic system is prperly "hermetically" sealed and water is not escaping.

Ditto steam. That tiny bit of moisture it may add if a steam air-vent valve is leaking or slow-acting is supposed to be neiglible if proerly maintained and operiting.

I fully expect to be flamed for this opinion because "everybody" just "knows" hot water heat is best and moister. But they cant answer WHY they have that belief.

 

[yogitunes]

Rayjay

There is a new home (modular) that was just placed near my home, I have to snoop, they have a system I have never seen, there is a heater unit with the blower for the A/C...and theres a boiler, that provides heat, via pipes, to a radiator type heat exchanger built into the blower unit, this also has a variable speed blower to keep the temps equal, they also have 2 hot water tanks, one gas and one electric, I don't understand this concept, but the electic pumps into the gas and then to the house...

Next chance I get over there I will take pics and display....

but this may be an option for you if you didn't want to replace with all raidators thru out the house, with a few zoning valves, this little unit could heat your whole house by radiator and forced air....maybe you want to add the "water jacket" hot water heater storage system also, unbelievable one unit could do it all, just an idea!

the house I have for my mom, it has the teledyne laars installed, 16 years ago, its a 2 story plus basement, she keeps the heat at 78, heats great, never a problem or service call since it was put in, gas fired, and her bill is no higher than 75.00 a month for heating, the house also cooks, hot water, 2 gas dryers by gas too...the hot water heater went the other day, no complaints never had a problem since day one, 16 years was a long life for this one....

my brother has the identical house next door, heats with a boiler, but it's oil fired, keeps the heat at 70 or below, and fuel bills about $300. to $500. during the winter, he's thinking about converting also to the same as me, but he wants the water heater option too, get rid of the electric HW heater, don't know what he's waiting for, the gas company is offering rebates and financing.

 

[yogitunes]

Toggles...

your right about a ranch style home, but it would be a horizontal install, called a side draft, and yes these are great for this type home, heat and central air..most ranchers have a center shaft going from the basement/crawl space up to the attic, used for return air venting, from the bottom....

some things to consider with 2 story homes in any configuration is heat rises and cool air lowers, and one problem you can run into during winter, is the heat runs all up stairs, summer the cool air stays downstairs, where you can, hang a curtain so to speak to "zone" off the uneven temperature sections...to save energy with window unit A/C, we hung a sheet in the stair opening, when sleeping run the bedroom A/C, and turn off the downstairs, then reverse in the morning, that way you are not cooling the entire house all day long, while your at work....this can also help with heating too, so all the heat doesn't run up the stairs...
just some food for thought!

 

[toggleswitch2]

~One could put a vertical gas-fired furnace.

he he he he I meant horizontal.

Thanks Yogi!

I myself had the majority of the return-air off the top-floor ceilng from the central A/C system. (Which is th ebest palce for it). But I was sure to have a small return as well at the lowest point of the (finished) basement that is also centrally cooled.

Did wonders to keep the temperatures across all three floors more even and keep the basement dry and smelling good!

 

[rayjay]

Hey Martin. Thanks for the tip and please keep me posted. I forgot to mention that when I had the additional furnace installed 2 years ago, I had new air conditioning installed, since the old one was 25 years old and was run through my existing forced air furnace. With a split level house, it was very hard to keep the third level bedrooms cool, even with high wall returns. So.....I had a whole separate A/C system installed,all new ducts and registers through the ceiling. They had to go through the closets to run the ductwork to the first level. But what a difference..... The house cools off much quicker, since heat rises and the A/C ducts are now in the ceiling.

What annoys me is that most HVAC contractors push you to use your forced air system because of the duct work. But.....my house is 50 years old and the ductwork is on 4". To run A/C you need 6". A local contractor said I was crazy for doing this, but my friend gave me a good price and it was well worth it.

The thermostat for the A/c is in the hall ner the bedrooms and the return is in the ceiling which helps pull out all the war air that accumulated in the upper hallway.

 

[toggleswitch2]

IIRC those new-style instantanous hot water heaters are available to use for hot-water (home/space)heating.

One brand (that I know of) uses the force of the moving water to turn a wheel to generate electricity to create a spark and then ignite the gas..no outside electricity required. Other brands use small regular batteries and yet others plug-in to a standard wall-outlet.

Just please be sure to pick one, if you go this route, that is designed for hydronic home heating... the warm water coming back from the radiator loop into the unit is the special consideration here.

 

[panthera]

We've used such combination

units for home heating and endless hot water production for decades here in Europe. They work very well, have life-expectancies which justify the high initial cost and, ultimately, can save money.

Unfortunately, they have to be installed with much more care to the details than is needed for typical heating systems. You really need to find someone who knows what the are doing, otherwise you are going to take an efficiency hit (or safety risk) which is unacceptable.

I love these units and, if I ever have to do a hydronic solution in the US, this is the way to go. Especially as they can be very easily coordinated with solar or geo-thermal solutions.

 

[yogitunes]

Rayjay...here goes

this is the boiler...about 5 feet away...

 

[yogitunes]

and this is the so called heater unit that houses the blower and the A/C condenser coil, and the heat exchanger which gets it heat from the water from the boiler..Carrier is the brand name...

 

[jamiel]

The "hot water....moister", I think, is the placebo effect (all other things being equal...there's less air movement without a fan, hence less evaporation on the skin (less of a breeze), therefore more feeling of "moistness"

That said, a house I lived in forced hot water retrofitted into a 1950s ranch on a crawlspace (was built with forced hot air)...it was phenomenal because the way the house was set up (boiler in the bathroom in the center of the house) having forced air was extremely noisy, where you could only hear the "whoosh" of the boiler igniting...the circulating pump was extremely low-pitched and really wasn't audible while running. Had a single large window unit for the house and if you ran it like central (i.e. kept it on) the house was very comfortable with a single box fan toward the bedrooms.

 

[yogitunes]

and the zone pumps

 

[yogitunes]

a close up of the boiler...by Crown-aruba-xe

 

[yogitunes]

a close up of the boiler's heat exchanger unit in the blower unit