Damn Drains

[sudsmaster]

This house has lots of charm, but one of its more dubious charms is the serpentine route that the drains take from the kitchen sink to the main sanitary line. It starts out ok, but then it's joined by the drain from the laundry closet. OK, so far so good. No reason why those two can't share. Then it's joined by the three drains in the bath - shower stall, tub, and sink. The problem appears to be at the junction of the first bath connection - the shower stall. Or between the shower stall and the tub, to be more exact. About once every year or two the line clogs up between the two. The result is that the drain water from the washer and kitchen sink backs up into the shower stall. The tub and the sink drain are still just fine.

One would think that snaking the shower stall drain would fix that problem. But it's apparently constructed in such a way that the snake invariably goes in the wrong direction, towards the kitchen sink. So I found the only way to clear the drain is to go outside the kitchen and snake about 35 feet from the cleanout there. It's a tiresome and messy job, but appears to be approaching regular maintenance. The worst part is that to get a snake that long I had to go with one without a handy container and wheel. Instead it just has this stupid S shaped tube that is a pain to operate. I'm seriously considering getting an industrial grade powered snake the next time I hit Harbor Freight.

In the past I haven't found much in the auger of the snake. This time I found a combination of hair (mine from the washer, no doubt) and what initially looked like shreds of plastic, but after holding a sample to the gas burner it appears it's some sort of vegetable fiber.

The worst was that this clog hit when I wasn't expecting it. I ran the lime peels from the pork roast marinade through the disposer this morning. It was a lot but citrus peels are supposed to clean things up, right? I guess not. I'm guessing the vegetable fiber was some of the lime peels, maybe the stuff that divides the sections. Anyway, I also ran a couple loads through the Neptune after that. Later in the day I noticed water on the hardwood floor in the hallway outside the bathroom. I looked inside and sure enough there was a couple of inches of water in the shower stall. Probably enough to find a path out through the wall - or maybe it had overflowed the stall door jamb. Not sure about that. Had to get out the Hoover Floor Mate to dry the flooring - the water had also found its way into the original bedroom next to the bath... fortunately it wasn't a lot and the floor doesn't appear to be damaged. I credit the four coats of oil based polyurethane varnish I put on it some 12 years ago...

Next time I'm under the house I'm going to take a closer look at how the shower stall connects to the kitchen/laundry/bath drain line. It might be possible to reconfigure it to make clogs less likely.

Meanwhile I'm going to go back to my practice of using the garbage disposer very sparingly... no more mass quantities, even of relatively beneficial stuff like citrus peels.

Right now the shower drain is being treated to an overnight Zep enzymatic drain treatment. It probably won't do much, but I figure it can't hurt.

 

[panthera]

Rich,

I'm sorry. That sucks, and not in a good way.

My partner's house had two loops in the drain lines with no pitch at all with everything from the kitchen and bath running through both loops. Total blockage every few months, even just the junk from the dishwasher was stopping things up.

We ended up just replacing the entire run ourselves with proper pitch and two separate runs, one for the bath, one for the kitchen until just before the tree.

It's the only solution, really.

I wish you good luck.

 

[tolivac]

I have a similar problem-mine is two things-the line is undersized and it is not "sloped" properly when it was installed by the plumber that was involved in building my house-my place was built in 1972.Its looking like I will have to do one of two things-have a plumber snake the drainline(mine goes to a septic tank)Or purchase my own 'snake" outfit-a 60'one-which would run about $400 from Lowes or HD-you can't rent drain cleaner machines out here becasue of NC law.In other areas you can rent them.Just rinse off the snake sections after you have used it and before turning it back over to the rental place.Guess will have to see What Harbor Freight has-like Sudmasters drainline this will be an ongoing problem with mine too.I am trying to get a BF disposer that has undercutters to chop up the vegetable peel strands-regular disposers don't do that.Sudsmaster may want to get a disposer that has the undercutters-an example is ISE Evolution series-some of these have the undercutters to chop and slice the stringy bits before they flow down the drainline.At present I use an old Vita mix to grind my waste.The long peices are separated by the sink strainer-and I put that into the trash.The rest goes down the drain-mostly liquid.I can't put out stuff for the trash-since I am outside of town limits I have no trash pickup-private service trash pickup-including rental of the wheelie bin container-costs about $400 per year-Its free to take the trash to the transfer station near my house-a Marathon compactor for trash and dumpsters for glass,cans,plastic containers,another for cardboard,and another for newspapers.A very large dumpster at a lower level is for yard wastes.also out my way if you set out the trash-your container is going to be visited by the resident "dumpster divers"insects,raccoons,stray dogs,and possums-maybe even a black bear.Once or twice a week trasfer station visits for me-its on the way to other places I go to.Just put the trash in the back of the car and drop it off.Then go on to my other stops.Oh yes I have tried to slope my line further by propping additional bricks under it.And its in a crawl space-difficult to access.

 

[toggleswitch2]

Lerned that a new garbage/food disposer in an old house is a problem.

NYC (and Toronto ) were the only cities in North America PROHIBITING A waste disposer; many city REQUIRE them. The law was was changed and when it, was I got one.

I throw all peels and such away myself into the garbage can ("bin") and use the disposer only for the handful of stuff left in the (plug-hole) strainer.

I had a bad clog that resulted in getting evicted from an apartment building. They assumed it was my "illegal" dishwasher that caused the clog.

Anyhoo... I ususlly throw boiling hot water down various drains about once a month. (Pasta water etc). Helps dispose of fats and muck. For very problematic drains one can throw two cups of bleach down (generic, even), let it rest an hour or two THEN throw down the boiling water. Works like a charm.

Having had a flood or two in my house from clogs, I now cut up the paper of life (toilet paper) into 4x6 squares multipled by three or four layers and use that for Star Trek events (Klingons circling Uranus). No longer one continuous piece just folded. Ditto baby-wipes. Yes, Europe lacking bidets here these come in mighty handy. Get the the cheap flimsy no-name ones and cut 'em up into the smallest pieces that will do the job, if you insist of flushing them down the commode.

Good luck with your drians. It's a major undertaking.

Speaking of enzymatic treatments, mine once loosed a whole chunck of goo. It stayed lodged just before the main trap, and around it it snagged all sorts of paper and fiber from the disposal. Once cleared out my lines were good for years.

 

[panthera]

There is a solution

and given the high costs for plumbing in NC (you can't rent snakes in Munich, either, but a plumber can drag the same filthy one through your house he's been using for the last fifty years).

A maceration pump of the kind designed to make it possible to put kitchen islands anywhere will solve the problem. Designed to handle grease and fibers and all the other ick, they use pumps with a decent head (16' is common for residential units, commercial frequently less) with a run of 150' typical to get rid of the waste (Of course you can trade head against run but you can't trade run against head). You don't have to worry as much about pitch, although obviously the closer to the specified fall going to them you come, the better. They can be bought with sufficient head to even handle pumping up from a basement. You can lay a flexible hose or rigid or a combination to work around nearly impossible situations and they have all the necessary NSF, etc. certifications.
No, I am not talking about the toilet pumps. Different design criteria.

Here's a link to one firm.
There are others. Home Depot has them in their order catalog in the kitchen design department, but you'll have to convince the in-duh-vi-dual that they do - the folks in Cheyenne believed us, the num-nuts in Fort Collins where we first asked refused to even look as such a thing couldn't exist.

http://www.saniflo.com/

 

[toggleswitch2]

I had a pump for my basemnt kithcen, a grease-trap is ESSENTIAL, or the weight of the grease coating the float will prevent the pump from starting.

It wasn't pretty!

 

[bajaespuma]

We call them "grease traps"

We use these in restaurants all the time. Unless you have strong stomachs and weak olfactories, think twice! They stink and are horrid to clean.

 

[panthera]

Um,

The saniboy system in 2009 is sealed and doesn't stink. Are we talking about the same thing?

 

[sudsmaster]

Pitch might not be the issue. All the backed up water from the stall and drains came gushing out when I opened the cleanout on the side of the house just by the kitchen sink. But after I cleared out the clog, all the water went in the proper direction with none through the cleanout.

The water was black... which probably was from the last load of colors I ran - I wear lots of black for the machine shop work... doesn't show stains...

Harbor Freight has two choices... standard 50 ft snake with powered rotation and manual feed: $220. "Commercial" model with powered rotation and power feed, $325.

I'm leaning towards the commercial model... mainly because both weight about 80 lbs but the commercial model has wheels ;-)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66508

 

[whirlcool]

Grease traps.... we had one of those in a house we lived in while we were in the burbs of Chicago. You are right about the smell when they need to be cleaned (every 5 years or so). Whew! There is no way to describe the horrific odor those put out. Imagine raw sewerage rotting for 5 years. That's a pretty good description!

A friend of ours down here had some problems with his drain system. The plumber told him no to use Charmin. He said it'll clog your drain faster than anything else. He switched to AngelSoft and the drain problem went away.

 

[sudsmaster]

No problems (thankfully) with the main sanitary line or the commodes.

I should have added that the shower stall in question is in the original (pink) bath, and that shower is rarely used. Which might be part of the problem... daily use might help to clear the drain line of debris from the disposer and washer, and also more quickly alert the humans of a clog in the making.

I might have to start running the hot tap in the shower stall for a minute or two every day, or every week, just to make sure it's still draining quickly and to help flush debris down the line. It's relatively close to the main sanitary line so the pipe should get warm all the way out.

 

[rp2813]

Rich, you've seen our place. When I was younger, I was under the house using a snake a number of times due to a 90-degree turn in the lateral line from the kitchen sink that fosters clogs. The stench of the black goo I'd have to deal with is unmistakable. This never happened before a disposal was installed back in the 70's. So for many years my mom had a strainer over the disposal (it's a single sink so the disposal is the only drain outlet) and we still use one. I'm not inclined to mess around under the house anymore. Steve is right about an old house with a disposal being a recipe for sewage problems. Best of luck with your current situation.

Ralph

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

Probably the only real solution would be to provide separate lateral drain lines for the kitchen sink and possible also the laundry closet to the big main sanitary waste line.

Unfortunately it's all cast iron (by code in this town) so breaking into the main line would be a bit of work (anyone like working with molten lead?) and not something I'd want to tackle lightly. Well, almost all cast iron. The laundry drain line is copper. And someone snuck in some ABS for the patio half bath, but that's another story.

But I will eventually take a look at the drain connection between the shower stall and the bathtub. That is where the clogs seem to accumulate, and it might be possible to reconfigure it for less clogging and/or easier snaking from inside the shower stall.

 

[sudsmaster]

PS-There now is a bit of warpage in the first strip of flooring next to the bath doorway tile. It probably could be covered up with a low door threshold sill - there's room under the doorway for that (it was undercut at one time for carpeting). I might try nailing the warped strip(s) down so that they flatten out again.

 

[travlincub321]

Togs Honey

You have a way with words.. Not only did your post about toliet paper was good, through but also not tacky and very tasteful..

Does anyone here remember the pipes from back in the 80s that was very prone to faliure and was eventualy banned

 

[panthera]

Rich,

I'd weight them first, then nail. Otherwise, they might cup on you.

 

[circlew]

You say that when you try to snake the line from the shower, that it wants to go upstream (toward the kitchen sink) instead of downstream. This indicates to me that the tee or wye is installed backwards. That could possibly be part of the problem with it clogging since you said it always clogs in that section. Also, it may have a low spot there that collects debris, making it backup. My first plumber (who I refer to as Dumb-Dumb) put a sewer line in my basement that had no slope whatsoever in a 12' section. Glad I noticed it before concrete was poured, as it surely would have clogged quickly. That, in addition to several other mistakes, led to his dismissal. He was a real cutie, but not much of a plumber. My new one is excellent, everything he does is top-notch. Good luck finding a solution to the problem.

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks all

For the support and suggestions.

I popped for the deluxe drain cleaner at Harbor Freight this afternoon. Also stocked up on some other stuff that will eventually be used around the house or at work.

By the time I got home it was nearly dark so the deluxe drain cleaner is still in its box. I might unbox it tomorrow after work to see if it works. Might even try it out on the drain...

As I recall the drain plumbing in that section is a bit bizarre. I remember scratching my head more than once trying to figure out why they did it that way. But I'll have to go down there sooner or later and take another look. It's certainly possible that they put in something backwards.

I'm hoping the new industrial quality snake machine isn't too powerful for the drain in question. But it's supposed to handle down to 1-1/4" lines and I this is a 2" line, at least at the clean-out.

I might screw a thick board down on top of the slightly cupped plank. I'm going to wait a bit though, to see if as it dries it straightens out a bit on its own.

Does it need Viagra?

 

[toggleswitch2]

~That, in addition to several other mistakes, led to his dismissal. He was a real cutie, but not much of a plumber. My new one is excellent, everything he does is top-notch.

If a man can't pitch pipe and work it properly he's useless.

Can't be too much of a pitch or not enough. Either way it need to slope jsut right so that the solids flow with the liquids, or you'll have problems.

 

[sudsmaster]

Unfortunately, more floorboards are cupping... mostly near the bathroom door and wall. But I suspect it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Unfortunately the hot dry weather is over and the rainy season is about to begin. From the reading I've done, the best thing is to let the flooring dry naturally, maybe with some fans to help speed the process (I might put some in the crawl under that area). I turned the central heat up and opened the nearest window (in the bath). Some of the water ran into the spare bedroom and collected under a metal storage cabinet - the kind that rests directly on the floor. I had to unload the heaviest stuff and move it to another room to get at that water. The appliance dolly came in handy for that.

Perhaps next summer I'll have to nail down and sand the damaged areas, and then restain and re-finish. Fortunately I still have the stain and polyurethane I used on it 12 years ago, and it's not a very big area to treat (small hallway).

Meanwhile I'm looking forward to teaching that drain a lesson with the big snake, lol.

 

[panthera]

Rich,

I was thinking (and you thought that sound was a meteor hitting central Europe).

You might just want to inspect stuff carefully first before you send that monster through. That snake has torque beyond belief and if there is something wedged into a section of pipe or if they did put something in backasswards (and it surely isn't right) you might end up ripping something lose which will not be fun to put back together.

Just a thought - my partner's house was built in 1903 and I think there isn't any wrong way to lay pipe we haven't seen, including mixing grey lines with the toilets...

 

[sudsmaster]

I had much the same thought.

I know that the manual snake goes in fairly easily, without even needing to be turned, for the first 20 feet or so. Then it hits the bath area and requires turning every foot or so. I promise I'll be gentle with it and not get carried away with the power feed or rotation.

After all, it does have a toggle switch (for clockwise/counterclock wise rotation).

 

[panthera]

oh, gods,

Rich wrote:
I promise I'll be gentle with it and not get carried away...After all, it does have a toggle switch (for clockwise/counterclock wise rotation).

I always did wonder what Toggles meant with his screen moniker and now I know...

 

[sudsmaster]

I unboxed the deluxe drain cleaner this evening - unlike most Harbor Freight heavy equipment, this one was quite well assembled already. All I had to do was to straighten and secure the folding handle, and attach the wire support nozzle in front, and then attach one of the four cleaning bits to the end of the wire.

Interestingly, while the product description and box states that the drain cleaner will work on drains from 1-1/4" to 4", the product manual warns not to use it on drains less than 2" inner diameter. Fortunately the drain in question here is 2" ID, so it should be ok. I've also chosen the smallest of the four bits to start with (the "arrowhead") so that should be ok.

 

[mixfinder]

Eay your dinner, Harold

If this is a secondary shower perhaps a bit of digester down the bathroom drains on a regular basis may help if there isn't daily flow through the drain.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, a few years ago I tried regular additions of the Zep enzymatic digester at far higher than minimum recommendations, but it really didn't prevent the sudden clogs.

I had hoped that the new garbage disposer (the old Waste King kept on jamming on soft stuff) would fix the problem but it obviously didn't.

This weekend I'll crawl under the house (not fun) and take another look at the plumbing. Then I'll give the new power drain auger a test run. I'm hoping that I'll be able to use the scraping attachment to dislodge what must be years of accumulation on the walls of the pipe between the shower and the tub, and help prevent a recurrance any time soon of the problem. We'll see.

 

[sudsmaster]

On closer inspection

I was able to crawl under the house today, and inspect the drain lines.

The good news is that all the Y's appear to be installed correctly. I have no idea why the snake, when inserted through the shower drain, doesn't ever seem to be able to dislodge the clog. Perhaps I just wasn't inserting it far enough, or perhaps it is going up the vent pipe instead of down to the main drain line.

In any case, I think I identified the problem section. Between the shower and the tub drains there is a 45 degree elbow. Apparently the tub drain was made a little short or something, but there is a very slight sag at the elbow, and a slight rise on the way to the tub drain. It's probably just enough to slow disposal and washer debris and cause an eventual clog.

I got out the deluxe powered drain cleaner and went to work. The smallest head, the arrowhead tip, went through without any problem. The next one, the spiral wire auger, was a little tighter but also made it through to the end of the line no problem. It came out fairly clean - one bit of unidentified fibrous material was lodged in its winding, though. Next up was the wall scraper head. This one gave a lot of resistance at every bend (and there are plenty of bends). Finally it bucked so badly I had to pull it out before it made it to the problem area. Similarly for the "U" shaped head, which is smaller but also rather aggressively shaped. It got in farther but probably not to the end of the drain line.

There were a number of small puddles on the plastic sheeting installed over the dirt under the bath/shower drain area. Presumably these are from the shower overflow, but I'll probably have to get some large plastic trays to set under the drains in that area to see if any are chronically leaking, or if the shower drain pan itself is leaking.

I took some photos of the drain layout and will upload some of them time permitting.

 

[sudsmaster]

As Theatened...

Here's some camera shots of the problem area in the drain line.

First, here's the short section between the shower and tub where there is a sag and a rise just after the elbow. The shower drain is off to the left. The tub drain is on the right, visible. This is probably the original drain pipe configuration dating back to 1941. Probably has been a problem ever since ;-).

 

[sudsmaster]

Here's a view from the tub drain to the right, looking towards the shower drain to the left.

 

[sudsmaster]

And here is the tub drain. I think the steel down pipe needs to be lengthened so that the rest of the cast iron pipe below can be put in better alignment with the rest of the drain line.

Unfortunately it's all old oakum-lead sealing, and chances are the entire run will have to be replaced as I understand it's not possible just to reposition the pipe joints (they are rigid) and they usually break if you try to remove the lead/oakum. There is a neoprene/sleeve/hose clamp join further up the line that could serve as the break point, I suppose (near where the washer drain connects).