Dang Grind and Spew

[sudsmaster]

Well, Ralph was right: the pricey Cuisinart Burr Grind 'n Brew is flaking out on me. After a couple of months of good coffee, now the grinder has a mind of its own. It's been failing to stop grinding after the little trap door slams shut, resulting in coffee grounds getting packed into the space between the door and the grinder. A real pain to clean out. Even worse, after an evening of careful cleaning and testing, this morning it made a good pot of coffee, but as I was replacing the carafe the second time, the grinder switched on all on its own! Very briefly, but not a good sign.

I'm probably going to spend an evening tearing the thing down to see if I can figure out what is the problem, then if unsuccessful, returning it to the store for a replacement unit - as soon as I locate that receipt ...

 

[petek]

Hmmmm. I have the older model, it's our second unit I bought a little over a year ago after the first one died now iirc and already the grinder on it is kaput. I think what happens with it is that steam or something, water condensation maybe gets down into the grinder electrics or motor over time and kills it or rusts it or something to not make it grind anymore. LOL

 

[sudsmaster]

Wish I knew what I did...

Well, I still have the 1st and 2nd gen models - the ones with the blade type grinder. Neither of these really has ever failed, and I might just go back to the 1st gen at some point (if I can get a new carafe - the old one has a sprung lid - or I might just safety wire it back into place).

In any case, I spent a couple of hours this early evening opening up the current model. Torx 10, in case anyone is so inclined... lol... plus there are smooth plastic inserts that cleverly hide many key screws in the top.

Took a look inside the bottom of the unit. There appears to be a sealed plastic box in there, with wires coming in and out. Didn't try to get into that. Satisfied that I could find nothing amiss in that area, I sealed it up and pulled the top (courtesy of the many aforementioned hidden screws). Got a general idea of the main components, but frankly I also didn't see anything grossly amiss in there, either. I focused on the trap door, not big surprises there (other than the somewhat circuitous connection between the manual lever and the door itself). I then looked at the safety relays for the filter basket - these seemed to be in order, however, the safety relay for the hopper has a rather long row to hoe, with two stacked plastic rods finally activiting the sensor. With the hopper off I tested the grind a bit, and could see that the trap door was opening and shutting in the right sequence now. Hmmm. Tightened up all the screws I could get to in the inner top area. One was very loose, but that might have been my doing as I was trying to see if I could pull the grinder (not successful, due mainly to the white goop the mfg put on all the screws it didn't want fooled with). But who knows? I also shook the thing thoroughly upside down while it was open. Unground beans were coming out of somewhere, don't know exactly where, wasn't from me, I know that much.

Since the testing seemed to be satisfactory now, buttoned it all up, brought it back to the kitchen, and it just got through grinding and brewing a 4 cup pot with no glitches. Knock on plastic. And this thing is about 95% plastic, save for the thin stainless shell (a metal veneer if you will, over plastic), the copper wiring, and the aluminum heating assembly.

I held off putting the smooth plastic screw covers back on - they were a chore to get off (I used a fine dental pick) so if I need to go back inside I won't have to deal with them next time. They serve no real function other than to hide the screw heads and maybe keep some coffee dust out of them.

Time will tell. This thing made me late for work yesterday ... not gonna let it do that again... lol...

It's *possible* that in the course of the recommended cleaning of the ground coffee path, that something got out of alignment in the trap door area. Not sure how that would affect its timing, but who knows? I guess I'll find out soon enough...

 

[polkanut]

Thanks, but no thanks,

I'll stick with grinding my beans in my Regal grinder, and brewing my coffee in my early 1970's Norelco Dial-A-Brew. Much less trouble to deal with, IMO.

 

[sudsmaster]

I guess it helps to be a gear-head to appreciate the grind and brew machines...

;-)

 

[laundromat]

I had the GE,Mr.Coffee and cuisinart---

All of which failed. the Ge being the worst of them all.After one cycle,they'd short out.Not just one but four models.I gave up and got my old KA grinder out and got a HB Brewmaster that I realy like.

 

[petek]

The Grind'n Brews concept is great but what I don't like is the cleanup. I have a different make grind'n brew type machine I found at a liquidation centre NIB for $10 called a Meyer..Havent tried it yet. I think they were featured on QVC or something a couple of years ago and this must have been old stock not sold.

 

[laundromat]

The problem is

That,like in the front loading washer saga,steam and moisture do not get along with motors and mix with the residue coffee grinds leaving an offle mess.The Cuisinart lasted longer than the Mr.Coffee and GE but still was a hassel to clean up.I don't mind grinding the beans and setting the Brewmaster for 5AM.It's usualy midnight when I set it up and I found no difference in flavor strength or freshness when I'd grind and brew together in the AM.

 

[rp2813]

Rich, I know I owe you an e-mail. Be sitting down when you read it . . .

Yes, these are rather touchy machines. Mine will go through periods where it will finish the grinding and start brewing, then stop and start rotating things in the filter basket lid again, as if it hadn't yet switched operations over to brewing. It will give the same 5 electronic warning beeps each time it tries. If it can't rectifiy the situation itself, I end up having to shut the machine off and select "Grind Off" in order to get it to continue brewing.

My Capresso grind & brew never gave me a problem. Well, not until I was wiping it down and pressing a little harder than normal on the clock window and the whole window pushed inward, rendering the machine useless as there was no apparent way to open it up with your average screwdriver to re-secure the digital readout.

Not sure what I'll do **when** this latest Cuisinart fails. I'm steering clear of anything Cuisinart from here on in.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

Well, looking forward to the email, and since I rarely compute standing up, no problems... ;-)

My Grind 'n Brew is working just fine again now, since I took it apart and shook it upside down and snugged up all the screws I could find - and there are a lot of them. I wish I knew for sure what the problem was caused by, but I suspect it's a microswitch that may be tucked under the housings between the motor and the grinder. These all have white paint on the screws which is generally a sign of "don't touch!", so I didn't try to pull them to see what they were hiding. It's enough for me now that it's working properly again.

I suspect a few drops of water might have gotten into that area - I bobbled when filling the tank a few weeks back, but thought I got it all mopped up, and it worked ok for a couple of weeks after that incident. Now when I fill it, I drape my fingers over the side of the tank, so the water will hit my fingers well before it gets close to the grinder/hopper area. In any case, I think Cuisinart needs to look at that area of the design and make that microswitch (there just has to be one there, because it's the only way the machine would know what position the coffee filter lid is in) more resistant to coffee dust and water.

I also noticed that the permanent filter was raising up the filter lid a bit too high, but changing to paper filters didn't solve the problems it was having. But I switched to the paper filters since then because I prefer not having the sediment that goes along with a mesh filter.

 

[rp2813]

Yeah, even with paper filters it seems to be a tight fit. You line up the arrows on the basket lid assembly and when you swing everything shut, the lid often scrapes and goes out of alignment due to the tight clearances. It's not a big deal, but the less the machine has to do, the better IMO.

Speaking of which, I think my coffee is ready so I'm going to wrap it up here. I will say that these machines do make a good tasting pot of coffee, which is the main reason I'm hoping mine continues to perform properly.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

I did discover that the lid is in two pieces, and easily snaps apart for washing. It's not difficult to snap it back together, without any sign of wear on the connection so far, but I am wondering if it would be a good idea to order a spare lid assembly.

 

[rp2813]

Rich, I've been snapping the basket lids apart on "all" of my G&B machines since the beginning. This doesn't seem to impact the operation of the lid, which I always check when I snap it back together. I guess I'd need to try a brand new lid assembly to find out if I'm causing any trouble by snapping mine apart for cleaning.

Because . . . just this morning this danged machine apparently couldn't be satisfied with the lid's rotation after grinding, and kept rotating and beeping over and over again, even a time or two after I shut it off and set it for "Grind Off" and turned it back on again. I was standing there thinking I should just return the machine for yet another one. None of the previous machines had this particular issue. But with this kind of track record, I may just be trading in one problem for a new and different one from the next machine.

Sigh, I think the coffee is ready now. There may be a jaunt to Bed Bath & Beyond in my future, though, if this keeps up.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, it's my opinion so far that it might be necessary when these machines start acting up to remove the top covers (lots of hidden screws) and give the units a good shake to remove whatever it is that is interfering with the micro-switch(es).

That's about all I can conclude from my personal experience so far.

I'm not going to return this one at the time, unless I were to discover that Cuisnart has done something to fix these issues with a new release. From what I've seen of Cuisinart so far, though, they tend to redesign the entire product rather than make fixes to a particular model.

When I use the machine I listen for the sounds of proper operation, especially the little "click" that occurs after grinding has stopped and the trap door slams shut. If I don't her that click I know there will be trouble... lol... so far so good...

 

[panthera]

I have gone through

two of these damn Cuisinarts...and am only in the States between semesters (did I mention our semester breaks are about three months? Totally different system to the US.).

Neither of the damn machines lasted even through those three months.

Over here in the home of "real coffee", I have yet to visit Italian friends who have had the same automated machine from one visit to the next. They all break!

Even the Melita machines don't hold up worth crap.

Conclusion: Either the current state of the technology means you have to go professional to get a decent machine or you just have to accept that the cheap junk being screwed together these days is only meant to last for a few months.

Personally, I'm still grinding my beans, kept air-tight in the freezer, and running them through my Melita 104 pre-war porcelain cone and pouring the great coffee out of my 1950's Melita porcelain coffee pot.

It may require a bit more effort at a time in the morning when I'm barely coherent, but everything, including the grinder has been in service since the 1950's or longer and it all still works perfectly.

 

[sudsmaster]

I used to grind my own beans... but I found it to be a messy and time consuming affair... especially since the freshly ground beans tend to have a strong static charge and tend to fly around instead of allowing themselves to be scooped or dumped out of the grinder receptacle. The burr grind 'n brew resolves that issue... but obviously it introduces new issues.

My theory on some of the failures with the current Cuisinart is that once the grinder gets out of sync with the trap door, then it tries to jam ground coffee up against the door, which is hard on the grinder and its motor. Eventually the motor overheats and fails, and people wind up returning or tossing the machines.

 

[panthera]

Possible, or, Rich

There is a big difference between the way the blade grinders (supposedly, they heat the coffee more than the "mill" grinders do, but I think that's a bunch of bull) and the mill plates work with high-oil beans.

My grinder (mill) sometimes jams up on really oily beans (one reason I keep them in an airtight container in the deep freeze). The blade grinders never do.

Don't have trouble with the static electric charge - at least not with my BrAuns...

Anyway, I think you're onto something there. And my observation about oily beans jamming things up might play a role, too. Give the frozen beans a try and see if that helps?

On my damned machines, it was leaks which killed them, by the way...

 

[sudsmaster]

Perhaps you're storing them wrong...

I have read that freezing roasted beans brings the oil to the surface of the beans, making them appear more oily.

I used to freeze/refrigerate roasted beans, but stopped doing that some time ago. Now I just leave them in the original packaging, tightly sealed, at room temp, and haven't found that they go "bad" before I've used them up.

 

[panthera]

Good question,

I've read both glowing recommendations (nearly all European) for storing in the freezer, air-tight and glowing recommendations (nearly all US) for never storing in the freezer.
The only thing people seem to agree on is the air-tight part.

Beats me -

 

[panthera]

whoops,

Lost the rest of it.

Yes, oil rises when you freeze, but I don't think that has anything to do with the clogging - oil rich roasts just plain seem to gum up the steel mill wheels and their outlet more than the less-oily roasts do.

NOT saying I have a preference for one over the other, just, I've also noticed that the automatic machine in our Dozentenbüro which has a blade seems to make it almost throw a semester without dying. Of course, it is professional grade and costs nearly 2,000€...

And still bites the dust frequently.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, yes, I've had two previous versions with blade grinders and neither one ever failed after several years of use each. I just didn't like having to clean (and dry thoroughly) the removable blade grinder part of the machine, along with the other parts. I think the burr grinder equipped machine also makes a better tasting pot of coffee, but to be fair I've not compared them side by side.

 

[panthera]

well,

burr grinders (neat word, thanks!) tend to be self-cleaning - the instruction book for my BrAun said every kilo or so to just put 'er on roughest grind for five cups (the measurement for five cups, not five cups of ground coffee) and that would be all the cleaning they'd need.

Serious coffee freaks - and I live in the 'real' coffee corridor, tho' at the northernmost tip, of Europe, say the blades tend to heat the beans sufficiently as to change the flavour. I've never noticed a difference. What does affect the flavour is the bean, the roast, the freshness and iron content of the tap water and the not-quite boiling temperature. Boiling water produces a bitter taste, at least to me.

I've had freshly ground American coffee made in a percolator which was great (obviously, poured fresh and made with 4x the quantity normally used for that insipid brown runny diarrhoea of a terminal liver patient which usually passes for coffee in the US). I've had horrible coffee at 12€/cup from idiot baristas in Munich who were too busy prancing about to bother paying attention to the basics.

Still, I sent one secretsanta friend a Melita porcelain filter and papers one year (he'd just gotten a grinder) and he swears the coffee is too good to pass up. You just have to splash a bit of water into the funnel first, wait 20 seconds and then do it to it...

 

[sudsmaster]

The blade grinders do ok as long as they don't run too long. As such, they can't really produce a fine enough grind for espresso without burning the beans. For drip or perc, they are ok, as far as I can tell.

Obviously the grind size on the burr Grind 'n Brew is not adjustable. I've noticed it's a fairly coarse grind for drip. Not quite perc territory, but close. Still, the coffee tends to be spot on in strength. For most automatic drip makers, I understand the problem isn't water that is too hot, but water that is too cool by the time it hits the beans. Some will say the weakness of perc coffee is that it necessarily reaches 212F/100C, which is boiling at room temp, so the coffee naturally is a bit more bitter. However I also haven't noticed that problem with properly brewed perc coffee. Unfortunately my only perc machine is a 60 cup model which I don't fire up very often, at least not to make a cup or two. But I recall being favorably impressed with the coffee quality when I do set it up.

 

[sudsmaster]

Last straw

This morning the thing acted up again, not shutting off the grinder before the trap door closed. I had to give it a firm slap upside the hopper to get it to behave. Then after I'd pulled the hopper for a waterless test, it started grinding all on its own volition and I had to push the on/off button to get it to stop.

When I got home this afternoon I gave it another chance, but sure enough the grinder wouldn't stop at the right time, and subsequent testing revealed inconsistent behavior.

So I found my receipt, called Kohl's, had them hold a replacement unit for me, and packed up the misbehaving burr grind and brew machine.

We'll see how long the next one lasts.

Wish me luck ;-)

At least I still have the other two generations of this machine...

 

[sudsmaster]

Sanity returns

I told the gal at the Customer Service counter, "It's lost its little mind"... I went into more detail about the erratic behavior of the grinder etc... but I could tell she could have cared less. Anyway, it was quite painless to do the exchange. Just got through setting up the "new" one. I gave it a test run with the grinder w/o beans, just to make sure it knew the right sequence. Then a pot of tap water to flush out any dust. And now it's brewing another six cup pot (which I couldn't possibly drink tonight but is more or less a test run as well).

*sigh*... if this one goes on the fritz I might just go back to tea...

 

[rp2813]

It's An Epidemic

Mine quit this morning too. It literally ground to a halt, just like the one before it. And this was just after I had made sure last night that the chute was cleaned out due to the rotating/beeping issue with the basket lid that had become so tiresome each morning.

So it's off to Bed Bath & Beyond with my dead machine today, but I'll call first to make sure they have the model with the glass carafe, which I prefer from a pouring and cleaning perspective.

I'm becoming very annoyed with Cuisinart and am thinking of contacting them directly. The engineers behind this design all need to be fired. I certainly won't buy any Cuisinart product from here on out.

And just FYI, when my first machine failed I was advised by the Cuisinart rep over the phone that in California, their products can be returned to any retailer that carries them, not necessarily the one where you made your original purchase. As long as the store has the model you want, they have to exchange it for you. The retailers I contacted were unaware of this law, but BB&B was willing to accommodate me so that's where I'll go again today. I gotta get this done before "black Friday" that's for sure.

 

[sudsmaster]

Good luck, Ralph.

For what it's worth, the second one appears to be of a later date of manufacture than the first one. I didn't think to record the serial number of the first one, but it had this label on the hopper lid that I couldn't remove because it was stuck tight. The second one had the same big label, but it had a corner folded over and was easy to remove without tearing.

So I'm thinking either they changed how they are sticking these labels on, or the label got stuck because it had sat for so long.

In any case, the new one has been working just fine since Monday night. I've noticed it doesn't make quite as stiff a brew as the first one, and the "medium" setting seems to be a good choice. I'm hoping this is a sign that Cuisinart has made unannounced engineering or mfg. changes to the machines that perhaps address these issues... just maybe... Anyway let's hope three's a charm for you.

 

[rp2813]

Well, the only BB&B around that has the glass carafe model in stock is in San Francisco. The clerk was very helpful and she ordered one to be shipped to me. I don't know how she calculated things, but when it was time to settle up at the cash register and render me a new receipt, she advised I had $37.14 coming to me. Last time I did this and tried out the thermal model but returned it due to issues I had with that type of carafe, they refunded me the difference between the thermal and glass carafe models.

I'll keep going back to BB&B to return these as they fail. At this rate, I'm going to end up having paid nothing for my machine when all is said and done (considering I got the original for half price when Linens & Things was folding), and if I want, I can next time ask for a full refund, be money ahead, and go out and buy a different make. Maybe Capresso will have improved their clunky looking burr grind model by then. I do like the coffee the Cuisinart turns out, though, so I'm willing to stick with it in hopes they are indeed making improvements. I'll check my box from the old one to see if there's a serial number on it.

So for approximately the next two weeks the old Braun Flavor Select will be back in service. Given the annoying issues with static when using a blade grinder, I'll just get some ground instead of whole bean to use in the Braun for the duration.

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, if all else fails, Costco currently has the glass carafe version for $99, albeit minus the stainless steel veneer (they are all black plastic underneath, anyway). And, considering Costco's generous return policy, I suppose one could buy one there, use it until the other one is exchanged, and then return the Costco one for a full no questions asked refund. But that would be wrong...

I expect Costco eventually will offer an additional discount on their model. They did it for previous renditions, as I recall.

This morning, as I was waking up, the thing went off on schedule. Seems to me it did an extra revolution of the basket cover, but it ground the beans properly and then shut the trap door appropriately. So no worries, although I'm certain I aligned the arrows on the basket cover properly before setting it up last night (not aligning them will cause an extra revolution of the cover...).

 

[rp2813]

The clearances are such that even if you have the arrows aligned and think you have the filter basket assembly firmly in place before swinging it into position, the lid assembly will often brush against something and turn slightly as the basket is snapped into place, often enough to cause another revolution.