Digital Broadcast TV

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sudsmaster

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I'm wondering if anyone here has been using digital HD broadcast TV sets or receivers. In a few years analog signals will disappear, and the only way to receive broadcast TV will be via digial transmissions.

Since all my current sets are analog only, I am thinking of getting a digital (ATSC) terrestrial digital broadcast receiver, and sharing its output to the older TV's. I already have a coax cable signal distribution system for my existing TV antennae (one points west for most stations, the other points south for a few others). I get good to excellent reception of analog signals, so I'm thinking these antennae would work well for digital broadcasts (several stations in my area are already broadcasting in digital).

Does anyone have an opinion/experience with the Samsung receiver? It seems to be the most popular choice out there at the moment.
 
I did have the Samsung tuner-but took it back-I don't have an outdoor antenna and it didn't work with an indoor one.The stations here are running digital as well as the analog.for digital reception you will need an antenna that is designed primarily for UHF reception-those channels above #13.The digital HD broadcasts for the most part are on UHF.The FCC is doing the UHF assignments so the VHF band will be closed for broadcasting after the analog broadcsts are stopped.The Samsung tuner did have analog video out-but this may still not work for old TVs that don't have video inputs.You would need to feed the Samsung HD tuner analog out into a modulator(device for converting video to RF)so the older TV could use the signal.the modulator will need to be fed with the audio out fo the Samsung tuner as well.The samsung unit also has component video outs for HD ready sets-like the one I have-the Samsung HD out can be set for 480P,720P,and 1080I as I recall-You may want to check at your delaer to make sure.the Samsung unit was designed to interface with a wide varety of TVs.Modulators should be available from Radio Shack-got one from them a while ago.If you are feeding several old sets-you will need to feed the output of the modulator into an RF distributiuon amp.the output of the modulator was designed to feed one set only.May not work properly if fed into several sets at once without the RF DA amp.You could try a signal splitter-this would be less expensive-but cannot guaratee it would work-would depend on how many old analog TV's you are feeding from the modulator.If you do have an old set with a video input-you could feed the video directly.Remember it won't be HD,but you can see what is being broadcast.
 
I think there are a few threads about the end of analog broadcasting on "audiokarma.org" under the vintage TV heading so you might be able to do a search and find some useful information there.
 
Consumer Reports certainly likes them!

If anybody has read the current Consumer Reports, they practically push you to buy a digital big screen TV that costs thousands of dollars. I can remember years ago, CR was kind of grouchy, often asking, "Do you really need to buy this?". Now they push their readers to spend all that money to buy a digital TV for what? So someone like my mother can watch CNN and soap operas all day? Oh, my Uncle Howard always had to watch the Pennsylvania Lottery, he would have been so thrilled to see the balls going around on a wide screen! I guess they will have to make the ball shaking machines wider. I think what I am saying is that why should we have to spend so much when the nation really would be better off (with school, relationships, conversation) if we should watch less TV. Also, I have seen digital TVs at Best Buy but they don't look much better than a regular TV, maybe they have just a "regular" signal?

Tolivac, you know about broadcasting but don't you think America is just spending too much for TV? Could it be that because of all the expensive equipment they have to buy, that is why we often see 10 commercials in a row?

I know I come across as a grouch, but is this really necessary? Now I am asking the same question about CR, maybe this "sales magazine" isn't so necessary in my life either.

Nep, the grouch, going back into my Sesame Street garbage can.
 
HDTV

I purchased a Sony 34" tube HDTV with built in tuner a few months ago. I waited to get a set with the ability to recieve local stations. I have the Dish, but until I upgrade to Hi-Def Dish, I wanted to get the locals.

I have several TV sets which have rabbit ears and get adequate pictures, so I thought I would try that first. As tolivac stated, the HDTV broadcasts are on UHF so that's all you need. I tried a Terk amplified, and it did not work well. Then I tried a simple bow tie, and that didn't work. I had to get a 40" long Radio Shack UHF antenna and mount in in my attic. I still got lots of drop outs and pixtilization. I called channel 13, my CBS affiliate and spoke with one of the engineers. He told me that this signal is harder to recieve than regular UHF, and that they have had lots of problems with the equipment.

I think they have fixed most of their problems. Ocassionally I still get drop outs, but overall I love the HD experience. I still only get over the air HD. There isn't a lot on the Dish that I would want to see, although they have more than cable.

When the changeover occurs, supposedly, the Government will make converter boxes available for older TV's at $40.00 each, possibly two for each viewer. So you might want to wait for that. HD broadcasts are in 16 x 9 ratio, so the picture might look like you are watching a DVD. Oddly, most commercials revert to the 4 x 3 ratio, too cheap to produce a widescreen commercial.
 
Consumer Reports didn't exactly give my LG SlimFit set ($749) a good review, and I think it's fantastic, so go figure!

Are the prices out of hand? Absolutely, especially considering the saturation of the market. My guess is they will come down once again in February, after the holiday rush.
 
The price for television receivers is all relative, especially when you compare it to what color sets cost in the sixties...another era when we faced an exotic breakthrough in TV technology. A color set then would cost your over $800 for a basic one, and it went up from there depending on how big the screen and how fancy the cabinet. If you compare that to today's dollars, it would be like spending $5000 on a TV, which yes, gets you the latest and greatest HDTV technology.

Just like back then when not all shows were broadcast in color, today's broadcasts, although they are in digital, are not all in HDTV. Still, as NeptuneBob points out, the content on the TV really isn't worthy of all that expensive technology.

For me, having the local stations broadcast in HDTV is totally meaningless to me, except for catching a few episodes of NOVA on the PBS affilliate. I rarely ever watch these stations....they're just filled with soap-operas, talk shows, stupid reality shows, and some over-senstationalized newscasts.

Although I have a dish network dish, I don't have any of the premium movie channels. My choices for HDTV programming are extremely limited. The typical network channels I watch, History, TLC, DIY-TV, Spike, Comedy Central, and Cartoon among a few others are not broadcast in HDTV. The only thing that I watch that I'm really interested in is Discovery HD.

What I'm really waiting for is for the blu-ray & HD-DVD format war to be over. If anything, I watch movies and other programs off of media more than I watch them off the air. At the current time, pre-recorded material in HDTV sources are extremely limited and rare, and the equipment to do it with is even more scarce
 
Thanks. The primary reason why I want a digital terrristrial broadcast TV receiver (also known as an ATSC receiver), is to get the PBS programs that I might miss at their regular times, or to record those that I've watched once but neglected to record. Also to catch episodes of shows like LOST on regular commercial TV.

Here in the SF Bay Area, the local PBS station (KQED) has five broadcast digital channels. I think these are worth it.

I'm lucky in that my home has almost a clear shot to the Mt Sutro TV tower in San Francisco - it's about 25 miles away across the bay. In fact, the picture quality I get with my antenna system is better than what I was getting with analog cable.

I refuse to spend over $50 on cable... I like History Channel, Comedy Central, and the occasional ESPN and CNN show, but I find more often than not these have commercials that are at least as annoying as those on regular broadcast TV. I don't like paying to watch annoying commercials, if I can help it.

My gut feeling is that there is a lot of bandwidth out there for digital broadcast channels (how else would a local PBS affiliate get five channels) so it could, conceivably, be used to show some stations that are only available on cable or satellite today.

I remember when cable systems were going in, they were promising commercial-free TV. What a joke. It was a big lie to get the municipalities to grant permits/right of way/monopolies/etc. And I've found the local cable company (now owned by Comcast) to be only a step higher on the evolutionary scale than pondscum. LOL.
 
Multiple channels from one station come from when a station is not using it's maximum 19 megabits per second feed. When broadcasting a full 1080i maximum resolution picture with 5.1 surround sound, all 19 MB/s bandwidth is consumed. When the TV station broadcasts a program in 480p (typical DVD quality)standard definition with stereo or even mono sound, they can cram up to 6 more sub-channels onto a single channel. It's a neat feature, only problem is the reduced quality of the image in that mode. But then again, for most of the for-prophit broadcast stations, that's even too high quality for most of the junk broadcast on them. I'd like to see the PBS stations broadcast in full HDTV. Some of the specacular cinematography work on their shows really deserves high-definition!
 
You might as well buy the TV

Rich,

If you are going to spend $400.00 on the converter, you might as well buy the tv. I spent $1200.00, but now this model is $900.00. I like it because it can be hidden behind the doors of my existing cabinet. I didn't want a theater, just a new TV. I kind of like the look, different than the square screen. Kind of like Color in 1954.

Martin
 
I'm holding off on HDTV until the FCC decided the ATSC standard is REALLY what we're gonna use for the next 20 years.

Remember, the broadcast TV standards changed a few times, and the current NTSC standard is the 2nd color one the US has used...
 
I have an older CRT type rear projector "HD capable" TV --Hitachi-and 1080I signals from both of my HDDVD and BluRay players look like you are there!!Granted the HD equipment is expensive-both for the consumer and broadcaster.And the sad part--what to do with all of that analog broadcast gear when the digital broadcasts take over--and the analog is turned off for good.The analog gear will have no value-At one Richmond VA TV station they replaced an RCA analog transmitter with a new Harris analog one.That older rig could have been maintained.They put it out like an old washing machine!!I did get some parts from it.
I primarily watch movies--Broadcast TV these days is trash!!With the HD medium--why aren't the broadcasters trying to "showcase" it like when color broadcasts started-they showcased the medium with programs such as "Walt Disneys Wonderful World of Color","Bonanza",and other programs that showed beautiful scenes and had TALENTED actors.I would like to see more "sceneic material to showcase these mediums.Ditto for the HD type DVD's whomever is making the movie choices-there choices suck!Could be better.From what I see in the High Definition DVD's the war may go one for awhile-I did break down and got both machines.I do enjoy them-just wished they had better movies.would like to see OLDER pictures on these.I did make an interesting discovery-I played the Applianceville DVD-"Tuscan Washin" on my Toshiba HD DVD machine-and WOW!!That Blackstone washer--looked so real I could reach into the TV and touch it!!!The disc played back at 1080! and gave a surprize.Excellent photography on that disc.This is a good one to use with my HDDVD player.I feel the prices of HD TV equipment will fall as it catches on in the market-and esp when analog TV ends.That will be sad-but its coming.HDTV signals are more "finicky" than analog-If you have too waek of a signal at the receiver-it won't get it at all.with analog-you could get the signal if you didn't mind snow or noisey sound.also if you are too close to the TV station-or the signal is too strong the digital set won't work either.With analog--it could still work.I can envision folks collecting a lot of analog TV gear in the future.Both sets and broadcast.These is a group that collects old analog quad videotape machines-they may weigh a ton each-and require a 30A 220V circuit to run.Yet you can duplicate their performance with a digital recorder you could hold in your hand.I used to use those old machines.It was frightening when you rewound those 2" wide reels of tape!!Stay away from those reels-they move pretty fast.And tape head crashes were spectacular-tape flying out of the headgate!fortunately the video heads were easy to replace.
I don't know about the govt making converters-I beleive they were going to provide a $40 credit to families under a certain income to purchase one.I have seen some commercials shot in "widescreen" see them on Fox.On present HD cameras-the viewfinder has framing marks for both 16X9 and 4X3 screen formats.I bet the 4X3 apetures will disappear entirely in the future.
 
ATSC

As far as I know the ATSC has been accepted as a standard. The engineer at our local channel 13 said it was too bad that they didn't accept the other standard. ATSC is easier to broadcast and harder to recieve. The other one was harder to broadcast but easier to recieve, you could even have portable hand held devices.

The retailers are pushing the expensive models, large flat thin screens. CRT models are still available in smaller screen sizes, I think there is a 30" for around $500.00. Many people would do just fine with that size. And most people don't or can't spend $1000 or much more for a tv.

I agree that the progaming is pretty cruddy. I do enjoy CSI, Lost, Criminal Minds, Heroes, PBS, and Good Morning America in HD. I don't have a 5.1 sound system, but the TV has that output. The stereo sound with these shows is great anyway. The occasional broadcast movie in HD is good to especially when they do them in 16 x 9.

Can you believe that this system has been in use since 1998? And so little penetration in the market. And as far back as that there was one medium that allowed HD playback, D Theater VHS. Yes, VHS had the capability to record in HD before DVD's came to the market! I'll never figure that one out. I'm sure that the original DVD could have been HD, but then they could not have sold us all of those players and discs that will some day be like 8-track tapes.

I think it is kind of sad that all of those tv's will be kind of useless, unless you get a converter. And no I don't think the Government will make the converters, but I read they would be available for the $40.00 price for everyone, two per household. Produced in quantity, they would probably cost less than that.

Martin
 
So far I have not been impressed by high-def TV. I find resolution to be pixelated and over-colorized. Seems to me that it makes no sense to buy a set like this until the majority of broadcasts are designed for this type of set. I have seen demo sets in electronics stores and the resolution is phenomenal, but for me that has been the exception to the rule. These sets also seem to have lousy reliability and are very expensive to repair. I'll sit back and wait for the technology to saturate the market more and for prices on the sets to come down before I consider making a purchase. I don't watch enough TV to make the kind of investment a high-def TV would require of me.
 
One thing I think for sure is there will be more commercials. I have heard that HDTV shows every defect on a set and on the actors that the set designers will have to use actual, more expensive materials. If a set had, for example, a marble surface in the background it is now possible to use a faux finish or papier mache' and it will look like marble to the viewing public. Now, with HDTV, they would have to use actual marble because anything else would look phoney! Of course this all cost more so what do the stations do? Air more stupid car/SUV "lease ME!" commercials (car dealer commercials are soooo tacky and annoying). I would hate to be a makeup artist or hairdresser on TV, the whole nation will see every flaw, making people look perfect will take more time and of course, cost more money. And what are the wardrobe managers going to do? The audience will see every stitch that is not there. Guess we'll see more clothes commercials too.
 
I believe I know exactly which station you worked on Rex, that was probably WTVR 6. That station's been there since 1948! My company did the conversion of all the editing and production equipment. It was sad to see that nice RCA unit get put out to pasture. Clearchannel communications unloaded a bunch of the old RCA transmitters at the radio stations too when they bought them out. THe local talk radio station WRVA also went to a Harris Electric transmitter. IMHO, the Harris A.M. transmitters sound TERRIBLE at the receiving end. They are heavy in midrange, and have a poor signal to noise ratio. to make matters worse, most of the clearchannel stations are pulling their program material off of compressed digital sources, which end up making the high frequencies all gurgley and muddy...just adding to what the Harris transmitter butchers up! Their old RCA had such a nice sound! I remember listening to WRVA back in the 70's on my Dad's Fisher HiFi stereo and not being able to tell the difference between AM and FM! Not so anymore (listening on the same HiFi stereo)

One of the biggest things that people mix up is the difference between digital TV and HDTV. It seems to be happening here a little bit too. Digital TV,or as Martin pointed out, the ATSC broadcast standard is a high bandwidth way of transmitting video information up to 1080i as data to you. HDTV signals can be analogue or digital, although if you want to broadcast a digital signal over a significant distance, the signal will need to be digital.

TV stations had begun the digital and HDTV era editing their HDTV signals in analogue, ususally in "component" (Y, Pb, Pr for all you video techies) This is because most of the equipment came from Japanese makers. The Japanese bad been broadcasting analogue HDTV signals several years prior to the USA. Just before broadcasting, the signal would be converted to an ATSC digital signal before going up the tower. Today, it's all handled digitally. The signal becomes digital at the camera, and all further handling is done in data format. In fact with non-linear editing being the standard these days, the signal rarely ever even sees any moving parts between camera and tower!

One other significant issue that was a problem early on too was the lack of an HDTV camera. Most of the HDTV material that came out prior to about 2001 or so was originally sourced on 16mm film, then transferred an analogue (Betacam SP, M2), or later, digital(digital Betacam, DV-cam, etc), HDTV media with a telecine machine. This was due to the development challenges of a high enough resolution CCD to run live video! (the digital still camera market too!) Early HDTV resolution CCD's needed unusually high amounts of light and were too slow to capture the minimum 30 frames per second (remember, theres a TREMENDOUS amount of data coming off that CCD!)A TV show would be filmed, and then transferred to a video format. It took 2 to 3 times more time to transfer a film to video as it's "real time" speed. For example, a 1 hour television show needed 2 hours to copy to video. This was because the exposure time was only in the 10-15 frame per second rate as the system obtained enough exposure time to capture the image, and then crunch all the information. Once the program was transferred to a video format however, it could be handled on the wide variety of analogue editing and storage equipment that was out there. As processing power increased, and CCD sensitivity did too, and this snafu was solved! The advent of digital video cameras further helped the situation, as it was pretty much impossible to manage HDTV pictures within complex and sensitive analouge camera components.

In your home, you can find HDTV signals in both analogue "Component video" and RGB formats along with digital formats, like DVI, and HDMI. I believe the high-definition VHS decks were actually analogue decks. Due to their complexity, they cost over $2000 when they came out, and were well beyond the budget of most home buyers, so they never caught on. They did however enjoy a brief stint of popularity in the professional market.
 
Steve:I have seen the WRVA transmitter plant and their older studio plant.Knew someone that worked at WRVA and WRIC Ch8-that was the TV station that got rid of the RCA transmitter that my friend and I largely rebuilt.I was surveying WRVA's site at the time-they had a Harris DTS 50-a Solid state 50Kw AM,and they had a Continental electronics 317 50Kw rig-the Continental is a tube-tetrode equipped Dohery modulated transmitter.It has a cleaner smoother and louder sound then the DTS 50 from Harris-but you know station managers and owners-they will use the SS box.Their problem is that they coupled the new Harris transmitter to an older 1930's vintage RCA phasor-a poor combination.also the stations ground system was deteriating.A drive around town listening to the station-showed it as well as some feild strengh readings.their ground system needed to be replaced at the time.One of the station managers thought buying the DTS 50 (new transmitter) would solve their problems.I explained that the ground system and older phasor needed to be replaced-wether they followed that advice-I don't know.The WRIC tv station junked the older RCA to make room for their new Harris Platinum Solid state Ch8 transmitter and a not yet purchased HD digital transmitter-a Harris "Sigma".My freind moved on to other employment and no longer works with those stations.I was going to do some repairs and maintenance to the Continental 50Kw Tx at WRVA.Have installed and worked on those.the best 50kw transmitter made.Its final tube life can be over 50,000 hrs!No SS module can equal that in my experience.
 
I love my HDTV

I truly love HDTV. It's wonderful.
Last Xmas, I purchased a 26 inch Sony Wega LCD set and rented a Scientific American HD/hard drive DVD box from my cable company. The results have been fantastic. HD has brought a new dimension to such shows as "24" and "Lost;" even more static shows such as "Studio 60" look good. (And HD really brings out the best in "The Amazing Race.")
I also have a Dolby Digital setup, but I usually use it only for movies or specials; the sound system on the TV is very good as is. The only complaint is that my cable operator (Cox) needs to add more HDTV channels. I love Discovery and PBS Digital, but I'm craving more of it.
As for the price, I have to admit I bought the Sony off the floor at a local Circuit City (about $900). My only regret is that I should have spent more and bought a 32 or 37 inch model. But in a couple of years, I may move the Sony to my bedroom and buy a larger LCD set for the living room.
BTW, hold off on HD DVD's. The quality of the current DVD's are very good right now, and it makes no sense to buy one at a time when two competing formats are now on the market. Remember Beta?
 
48Bendix,

The Samsung ATSC tuner can be purchased over the interent for about $250, not $400. That's considerably cheaper than a new set. And, I would be using it to funnel standard tv signals to four older CRT sets in the house. Much cheaper than upgrading all of these at once.

Most likely at some point I will be upgrading the TV in the living room to a big flat panel with a built-in ATSC tuner. That's because the current 30" CRT set has to sit in a cabinet, which is positioned in front of the fireplace right now. I'd like to get rid of that cabinet and put the flat panel above the mantel, so the fireplace would be accessible.

Eventually I'll upgrade the rest of the sets, but with a shared ATSC reciever there would be no rush to do that.
 
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