Dishwasher on cold water!

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Sorry to be a little stupid but...

How does voltage affect the water heating capability? Is there less "oomph" available to drive the heating element.

Which leads me to ask, would you burn out a US electric heater by running it on 240v?
 
Simple answer is..

Yes a USA heater plugged into UK power would fry in seconds. On the other hand if you plugged a UK into a US socket it would not even glow and most likely blow the breaker. Also aren't the Hertz different we have 50 and US is 60 ??? Not sure about that one though.

Austin
 
The appliances in the USA are not made to run on 220V.  We have 110 or 120 which is half of what you have.  There is history to this decision and it goes way back and not going to get into if the decision was wise or not.

 

So we start off with less power to heat  anything quicky to a higher temp by electricity.  Houses and flats here are not made to accomodate 220V for appliances except for perhaps a dryer and even here I think I read that some cities banned the use of 220V in houses.

 

Miele used to sell 220V washers in the USA.  I have one and yes it is fast when starting from a cold fill and heating to 190F,  but I had to pay to have special electric run to the machine. Miele now does not sell 220V washers in the USA because people would not pay to have a line run, and  depending on where you live you may not even be allowed to run 220V into your living area, so now Miele only sells 120V machines and yes they do not heat as high as the 220V machines can. 

 

If you plugged any standard purchase USA  appliance(except an electric stove or dryer) into 220V the electrical components would evaporate within 3 seconds.  The odd thing is that I have 220V running my oven, Central Air and Washer so there is 220V coming into the house, just not running through it.

 

Yes I think the Hertz are different, so when USA citizens travel to other countries we have to bring along power converters to convert volts/watts/hertz - sometimes different ones for each country we visit.

 

My personal preference would be to have 220V for everthing  but that is not going to happen  anytime soon in the USA.

 

 
 
 
My dishwasher bought 9 years ago (8 years 10 months) is rated for 367 kWh/year.  I have the EnergyGuide tag.  The scale on the tag ranges from 312 kWh to 573.  The installation instructions direct for a 120°F water supply.  The Normal cycle heats to 140°F wash and 150°F rinse.  Selecting the reduced-energy option cuts the heating to 125°F.  On-board water heating always functions if the fill temp is less than the target, there's no way to disable it.  The tag does not state which cycle was used for the EnergyGuide rating.  I run on what is essentially a tap-cold water supply.  It may reach 90°F when the line is purged after two or three fills, but nowhere near 120°F.
 
Many Euro dishwasher manufacturers now heavily endorse connecting their machines to hot water. Miele even claims it to be a feature of their dishwashers, calling it ThermoSave. Technically, most dishwasher can be connected to hot water with some models being the exception. These would be dishwashers that use cold water for condensation drying, which basically includes most European Bosch units. Some of them now have an option to select in case of a hot water hook-up, which probably alters the drying portion of the cycle.

Alex
 
IIRC Hertz/Frequency

Really only comes into play if the appliance also has a motor and or today computer/electronic controls. Older European appliances that had mechanical timers were brougth to these shores and apparently used (if those that show up on eBay and elsewhere are any judge), with little to nil effect. That being said one assumes some motors are more sensitive to being used at faster or slower frequency than listed on the rating plate. There is also many appliances right through the 1970's or so were designed with motors that could run on 50hz or 60hz.

Miele USA once explained to us why American appliances designed for 220v cannot run on "European" power of the same voltage and often vice versa. Much of it has to do with how Americans get their 220v power (two 120v lines) versus Europe (a single 220v line and neutral (IIRC)).

Then there is also many American appliances even if rated for 220v have parts that run on 120v power so need both.

On the otherside European appliances that require 220v power can often be run off American 220v system,again if the frequency difference does not cause problems. You can even run them off a voltage converter (step-up 120v to 220v) long as the total power draw does not exceed the rating for the converter and circut the power is being drawn from.

Awhile back a company in Canada (EuroLine) sold AEG washing machines and dryers to the North American market. Though they ran on strict 220v/50hz power Euroline provided installation directions (they shipped the things south to the USA,one had to take things from there)and IIRC posts over on THS/Appliance forum more than a few were sold and the units worked fine.

My Pfaff ironer was brought to these shores from Europe by the previous owner's mother and used until the day we made the purchase. It was connected to and has an American 220v "dryer" plug. We had a serviceman frm Germany out a few years ago (don't ask, long story) and he showed us how to adjust the roller speed to compensate for the faster rotation caused by using a 50hz appliance on 60hz. Have had the unit for over ten years now and it works perfectly fine. Pulls nearly 3000 watts of heating/steam producing power, but ....

EU/UK laundry and dishwashing appliances and cold water:

One reason for 220v or even 408v power grid being built for homes in that area of the world was mainly because it was a given laundry and later dishwashing appliances would have to heat their own water. Indeed for much of modern history hot water is provided for such areas by instant heaters located near or in the kitchen, bath or where required. Contrast this with the United States where central boilers/hot water tanks supply homes and buildings with heated water.

It was also far easier to retro-fit many of the old (if not down right ancient)housing stock with electrical wiring for either appliances or water heaters as opposed to running hot water pipes from a central water heating system.

Boil washing didn't start being attacked/dying out in Europe/UK until around the 1970's or so with the "energy crisis". Until then it simply was a given housewives wanted that feature on their washing machines, so the power had to be there to provide.

Finally here is allot of debate on how it is more efficient for a washing machine or dishwasher to heat it's own water versus using that from a central supply. This is not always so and depends upon many factors.

Before safety and other concerns caused water heater temp changes here in the USA, it was quite common to get water >140F or even 160F from tanked or tankless hot water systems. Rudd and others advertised this feature for housewives showing all the new modern appliances (dishwashers, washing machines etc...) that required lots of hot water, but the supply also had to be great so His Nibbs and the children could take their baths.

Depending upon costs of heating the water and other factors such as temperature loss due to distance travelled, it is not always cheaper to have an appliance that can heat tap cold water to warm, hot or boiling.

Consider also with modern enzyme and bleach laden dishwashing and laundry detergents much of the argument for starting from tap cold water and heating to warm or hot is lost.

Blood amoung other substances that create stains is actually set when exposed to cold water. Commercial laundries use warm water (with or without alkaline chemicals) to flush such stained laundry before it is washed. Such places at least on this side of the pond also use several changes of wash water at temps ranging from 100F to over 150F that occur so quickly there wouldn't be time to heat water unless one uses some very powerful heating elements (steam fed washers for instance).

Keep in mind that while a washer or dishwasher is heating that water the detergent is already working. When this heating time is added to the actual wash time you'll often find things are clean long before the set temp is reached or shortly afterwards. In the case of laundry the remaning time is simply beating the wash back and forth.
 
American Voltage

Folks get it right there is NO 220 volts anywhere in North America, we have 120-240 60 hertz or 120-208. Europe has 220 50 hertz I believe [ I am not the expert there ] Laundress it is silly to say we have 120 here and that the two lines add up to 220, a second grader can add better than that LOL.
 
120 and 240 are the majority metro US standard. Many utilities bump up to 125/250, it marginally reduces their I/R loss on reactive (motor) loads. Rural runs may sag down to 115 or less. Rural light bulbs last longer.

One legend says Europe chose the 50Hz standard thinking the generator bearings would last 1/6 longer. Well yeah they do. But duhh, for every generator there are thousands of transformers and they all have to be 1/5 bigger. And you have to replace generator bearings anyway. Net savings, negative.

220V house mains get away with almost half as much copper for the same Watt load. But if Euro mains are ground referenced like 120V US mains, danger to a user in a mishap is doubled.

Edison's original idea was 100V DC. Which is uncomfortable to come in contact with but seldom lethal. Tesla/Westinghouse decided originally to match that with AC. But that's RMS. Which means during part of the cycle the voltage is zero and during part of the cycle it's as high as 140V which is getting dangerous. At 120V RMS, the peaks are almost 170V, which is dangerous. 240V RMS is 336V peak, which is often fatal. That's what makes AC "more dangerous" than DC at the same rated voltage.
 
But if Euro mains are ground referenced like 120V US mains,

Actually electrocution deaths per year in the USA are THREE times as much as all the electrocution deaths in Europe (27 countries)...
This goes a long way to show what system is most safely implemented!

PS: In Europe is 230V ground referenced and 400V phase to phase not 220 and 380!

Anyway, going back to dishwashing:
every modern European dishwasher can be hooked up to hot water and cold water only machines are exceptions!
But be aware that hooking up the machine to hot water will decrease it's cleaning ability and reduce cycle times of around 10 minutes as water heating is skipped.

This you can read in most dishwasher manuals around.

Another question is about the energy star rating: an energy star rated machine American machine will use around 2/3 to double the power and water of the analogous "A class" European machine, if one compares to the new A+ or A++ machines this difference goes even higher, why is that?! Can't American manufacturer make their machines as efficient as the ones they sell in Europe while preserving washing ability as happens here?
And also, why are American machines so much more noisier than their European counterparts?! (E.g. an American market SMEG at 11 litresand 1 kWh per wash and 41db of noise level and a Kitchenaid at 23 litres and 1,6 kWh and 51db, both upmarket brands)
 
Cit. "to reduce the size of he machine"

Don't blame me but check before you talk: I just re-checked the machines I compared and the Kitchenaid is indeed an inch less tall than the SMEG while being an inch deeper so the size is actually the same and both are rated at 14 place settings so the comparison is as valid as can be!

I didn't compare a 12 place setting vs. a 16 place setting machine, that would have been an unfair comparison (And beware! An EU machine at 12 place setting uses the same water and only 5-7% more energy than a 15 place settings one, check for yourself)!
 
Noise American Dishwashers

Some but not all the excess noise on American units comes from the built in food grinder (macerator).

In an effort to match the quietness of European units many American dishwashers now come with various filter systems that claim to reduce or eliminate the need for a macerator. Depending upon how one loads the machine (that is how well dishware is scrapped) these filters may need to be cleaned at regular intervals.
 
my dishwasher is not noisy and what idicates if the dishwasher is noisy or not is the outer insulations for built in model my dishwasher is a kenmore elite model made by kitchenair with a kenmore label i do not even notice when the dishwasher is working as its a gem when it comes to a non noisy dishwasher.
 
Great thread guys and really interesting information re power in USA. I have a Seimens dishwasher that we shipped over from UK when we relocated to Australia. Must be getting on for 11 years old. Hooked up to cold water here but uses such a small amount of water it heats up really fast. However, considering we have solar hot water and it gets scalding hot especially in the summer would make sense to hook up to hot supply.

However again, my Zanussi washing machine is cold fill and I think wash performance is much better with cold water heating up to desired temp. I also thought that blood stains should be washed in cold as hot water sets them? Perhaps I was miss informed about that one. My TL washers all have to get hot water from the tank and I don't think they wash as well as the Zanussi front load machine, but then that is a whole new thread.

Thanks for a great thread, very informative

Simon
 
Commercial Laundries Use Warm (around 100F) To Flush Blood

From textiles often with a small amount (per pound of wash) of alkaline substance. Ammonia will do in the absence of anything else.

Think about what happens to blood when exposed to cold (it coagulates) and you'll understand the rationale. Mind you "cold" water for laundry purposes is roughly defined as around 80F to 85F which to my hands feels quite warm.
 
Cold water washing here in Australia is all the rage in top load machines. Personally I don't like it, even with cold power washing detergent I don't think results are great and especially gym stuff comes out smelling a little off too. My Maytag TL has controlled cold where it lets a little hot water in from time to time during the fill cycle. I think cold cold from the tap is not great. Powders don't dissolve that well.

My fisher and Paykel intuitive takes in a little hot or warm water then circulates the concentrated hot sudsy water over the load as the basket slowly turns for about five mins then fills with cold water to the top then starts to agitate. It is a great machine and results are very good for a top load washer.

It is the middle of winter here in Sydney and we still have lashings of hot water from the sun only. Just put a load of sheets in the GE filter Flo and the water is really hot, must be nearly 60C, not sure what that is in Fahrenheit. Mind you it is a very sunny day here today.

Is solar hot water not vey common in the US? I think it is one of the best ways to heat water, totally free once solar panels have been brought and set up. With the US also getting lots of sun I would have thought solar hot water would be common there too.
 
Are Solar Water Heaters Common in the US

Unfortunately NOT we started encouraging them in the late 1970s but R Reagan put the brakes on them, when he came into the White-house he even made a big deal about having the solar heating system removed from the White House. So we are unfortunately way behind on this very practical way of heating water that much of the rest of the world uses.
 

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