Do they have gas dryers in Europe?

[passatdoc]

Just as fracking has caused earthquakes in the Great Plains states of USA.

California would have earthquakes with or without energy extraction. (but then, most new buildings are constructed to survive 7.0+)

 

[combo52]

Using Natural Gas For Clothes drying

May actually reduce demand for gas overall, it certainly does here in the US as large amounts of NG are now burned to generate electricity, and if gas is burned at a power plant to produce enough electricity to power resistance heated electric dryers you have to burn almost three times as much NG as you would if you just had a gas dryer in the first place.

Even heat-pump dryers make little environmental sense if NG is available in the home where a dryer would be.

Consider that a large percentage of clothes and linen drying in Europe is done by NG anyway, nearly all laundromats and commercial laundries use NG to dry the clothing there.

John L.

 

[servischris]

Gas tumble driers in the UK

As far as I am aware, the only DOMESTIC gas tumble dryers would be White Knight.

As for commercial applications, many commercial premises have gas heat tumble dryers made by Alliance Laundry Systems, Electrolux Laundry Systems and so on. With a gas tumble dryer they will just plug in with only a 0.3kW motor and dont need a larger 32a 1~ 230v supply or 400v 3~ put in place for large heating elements. Saying that, the commercial market is following the domestic and there are commercial heat pump dryers out there and are coming into fashion - Primus seem to be leading the way on the com. HP front. (Ive worked on a few).

Chris

 

[foraloysius]

Natural gas is yesterday's news. Everyone is putting solar panels on their roofs, so they get more independent from natural resources. Houses in new developments don't get a natural gas connection anymore, sustainable energy is becoming the norm very fast.

 

[passatdoc]

Typically, a gas dryer in the US costs $40-80 more than the corresponding electric model. Most consumers choose gas, if there is a choice (some don't have a gas line in their home). I don't know about the comparative operating costs today, but when I moved into my home (1988), a brochure from the power company stated it cost 25 cents to dry a load by gas, $1 to dry with electricity. Several cities here, to reduce demands for electric power generation, forbade the installation of 220V outlets in the laundry rooms of newly built homes, forcing the customer to use gas.

Of course the economics are different today, thanks to increased use of solar. I have friends with solar here who retrofitted their roofs, and have zero cost monthly electric bills. I don't know the particulars, in terms of whether they have gas or electric dryers, ovens/ranges/cooktops, and water heaters, but I know they use air conditioning, which uses electricity.

 

[brucelucenta]

Gas dryers

OMG yes, coin op laundries would almost HAVE to use gas dryers. Can you imagine the electricity bill if they were electric?

 

[maytag85]

The reason why they mostly, and only use gas dryers in laundromats is because it would not be practical to dry clothes at the laundromat, and most people dry their clothes at the laundromat as soon as they are done. They do use electric dryers in small laundry facilities like apartment laundromats, and small commercial laundry facilities. The electric bill would be VARY expensive, if all the dryers in a traditional laundromat were electric!

 

[henene4]

The problem with larger commercial heatpump dryers is their formfactor to power ratio. Either they are verry compact but therefor are pretty "slow", or they are relativley large in comparison to their drum volume.
For example, Mieles 700mm wide "compact" HP commercial dryer (700mm width and 1500mm heigth are a common laundromat dryer size for loads up to 10kg) takes about 45-60min for a load IIRC, while the electric/gas one only take 30min.

Their bigger machines have the heatpump module tagged onto the back, and take about 5-10min longer for a full load compared to their gas/electric counterparts.

I wonder if or when laundromats will incorporate either heat regaining systems into their dryer venting or maybe they'll switch to a central heatpump system (one giant refrigeration unit handeling heating/cooling for all their dryers).

 

[maytag85]

Heat pump dryers are energy efficient, but are not as efficient with time. Gas dryers have fast drying time, and they can get it done fast. One down side to heat pump dryers is, they are more complex, and are not as simple as a vented dryer, plus vented dryers do a proper cool-down for permanent press fabrics (synthetics) and dry faster.

 

[henene4]

Owning a heatpump dryer, I can tell you some things about that:

A) Cooldown: True. But our synthetics cycle never exceeds 120F. So no real need for that. And NO cotton cycle on ANY heatpumpdryer exceeds 70C/160F peak, and that is on these speed boosted dryers which have a small resistive heater to speed them up. Normal pure heatpump systems rarely peak beyond 140F.

B) Time: Meh. They are a little slower.
Take Siemens here in Germany: 8kg (that is abou 16 pounds!) in a normal condenser dryer takes 126min, 7kg in their vented dryer 130min (not verry optimized as these barely sell), 8kg in an A+++ heatpump dryer 148min.
The normal condenser uses 4.61kWh, the heatpump 1.48kWh. So it takes me about 10% more time, but I use a third of the energy, and I run the load about 20F-40F cooler.
On the professional side (Miele): The heatpump 325l drum dryers can evaporate 7.5l per hour at a load of 5.2kWh, same size as electric can evaporate 18l/h at up to 20kWh, the gas one can evaporate 17.2l/h at 18kWh gas power + 0.8kWh of electricity. So, the heatpump is half as fast, but uses a half as much energy for the same usage.
That makes a heatpump dryer brake barely even on a large scale professional application as they are about twice as expensive. But as ürices come down, that will change as well.

C) Lifespan/consitency: That is something that only turned around for households here a few years ago and is starting to turn around slowly for professional equipment.
Now, with A+++ dryers avaible for as low as 500€, and the cheapest heatpump dryers for 350€, it really barely makes sense to buy anythin else. And give that nothing new last for more then 5-10 years, heatpump dryers don't have a chance to age anymore. Coolants get recycled by now (at least in part), so that impact gets lower and lower as well.
Filtration has improved, so heat exchangers don't clogg up as much anymore.

D) Complicated: Nah. The only thing that changes is that a heater is replaced by a heatpump. Electricly, the difference is that you change out 2 relais for either 1 relais, a capacitor and a motor (in the compressor) or an inverter board and a motor. Oh, and you might need one NTC more. But NTCs don't fail. One motor-mounted fan is replaced by a cheap and easily replaced computer-style fan.

So, yeah, for the US market, gas (and even normal electric) still makes sense. Give that 5-10 years, and that will be different as well.
For the professional side, things start to turn around.
For the EU, heatpump is the standard.

 

[maytag85]

Heat pump dryers are great if you don't have a vent, but I don't know how much more they cost than a traditional vented gas/electric dryer, but they might cost a little more. Gas dryers in the US are the most economical dryers to use, and they have instant heat. I always make sure there to keep the dryer clean of lint, and I don't overload the dryer either (having a dryer with a lot of lint build up can affect dryer efficiency, and can be a fire hazard)

 

[wayupnorth]

People I used to know owned the local Norge Villages. They ran the cold water inlet to the water heating source, pre-heated the water over the dryers and this was 20+ years ago. Dont know what they have now because I am not going to a laundromat.

 

[iej]

I'm using a Miele T1 heat pump dryer at the moment and it's definitely not slow and I'm finding my clothes are far less likely to be heat damages than with other types or machine. it's extremely effective.

A lot of older (and particularly lower end) European air-to-air condenser dryers that just dump heat into the room are painful to use though. They tend to take far too long and also keep clothes at high temperatures for far too long, setting in wrinkles.

Gas dryers do exist here in Ireland but they're relatively unusual - commonly 230V 50Hz versions of US Speed Queen machines. They're quite overpriced though coming in at about €1200. At that price you can pick up a Miele or similar high end heat pump that is less complicated to install, more energy efficient and less harsh on clothes.

The main market for those speed queens here tends to be niche : rural guest houses. The other popular solution is a Miele Little Giant pair. They're faster, more commercial laundry style machines (both washers and dryers draw 5.5kW and would either be connected, each on its own 32A hard wired 230V circuit or, on lower amperage 3 phase 400V. They're fine for small dokkeridla but absolutely overkill for residential. I know I've seen them used alongside rotary ironers by some B&Bs. They're also very common for processing towels at hair salons, spas, table clothes etc etc.

Typically I know hairdressing places tend to use a very hot (boiling) relatively short cycle 49 min. To sanitise towels.

 

[maytag85]

Do they just only sell Speed Queen dryers, or do they sell Speed Queen washers and dryers in Ireland? Speed Queen is the only one who makes traditional top load washers and dryers in the US, all of the others ones that are on the market are cheaply made. There is a high demand on the used appliance market for traditional top load washers and dryers here in the US.

 

[iej]

There used to be a very small niche market for US style traditional top loaders here but it seems to have vanished entirely with the advent of larger capacity front loaders.
I haven't seen one on sale in years. There seems to be zero interest in pulsator or other HE top loader designs either. The front loader firmly won that battle in the 1970s.

Unfortunately they rate extremely poorly in EU performance analysis and those ratings would tend to be how most of us pick machines.

For example:

Whirlpool

Model: 3RLSQ8600WW

Spin Speed (rpm): 640
Energy Efficiency: G
Wash Efficiency: G
Spin Drying Efficiency: D

Heavy Duty Top Loader Washing Machine
Max Usable Loadsize Kg(max Dry Weight Cotton) 8.1kg
8 Programmes
Fully Electronic

Most European type machines would be A A A at that price point and offering larger load capacity and far higher extraction during the spin.

US type gas dryers paired with Euro high efficiency washers can actually be an extremely good solution though. You get laundry dry very quickly as the US machines are designed for much wetter clothes.

 

[maytag85]

I don't have a Speed Queen washer and dryer, but I do have a Maytag A810 washer and Maytag DG810 gas dryer from the early 80's that has had no repairs to my knowledge, and works like new still. The only thing I need to do to my Maytag washer and dryer is to get the washer new belts, and the dryer a new drum belt, but other than that, that is the only repairs I need to do to it. Most US washers and dryers have three wash cycles (programmers) they are Regular Fabrics, Delicate Fabrics, and Permanent Press (synthetics). The US dryer cycles (programmers) are Regular Fabrics, Delicate Fabrics, and Permanent Press (synthetics), and Timed Drying (the timer will go up to 60, 70, or 80 minutes). Some dryers in the US just have Timed Drying, but they allow you to manually set the tempature, and the temperature settings are Regular Fabrics, Permanent Press (synthetics), and Delicate Fabrics.

 

[rolls_rapide]

I suppose water meters and associated costs have put the kybosh on American toploaders being used in Europe. With the slower spin speeds, they might be acceptable in southern Europe, where hotter weather abounds, but if they use gallons of water, they'll probably not even be considered.

They'd be a virtual no-no in Ireland and the UK, especially with our weather! We need fast spins to extract more water, so that drying is as short as possible.

 

[iej]

The current generation of European dryers tend to be full of electronics and have umpteen different cycles and options that I doubt very many people ever use. Sensor control would be pretty much the norm on all but the very cheapest machines.

Older machines tended to have relatively simple controls with just a timer with a cool down phase and "High Heat" or "Low Heat options. In the 1970s and into the 80s only high end machines like Miele tended to have sensor drying.

I can only comment on Ireland but all through the 70s and 80s and into the 90s condenser dryers were pretty rare here and most tumble dryers vented through the wall. I know having grown up in Dublin in the 1980s/90s you used to get wafts of drying laundry and fabric softener and Bounce billowing out of vents on the side of people's garages and utility rooms.

Condensers were pushed in the 2000s for some reason and everyone was complaining about lack of choice of vented options but since heat pumps have made them super efficient and generally a lot more practical (no heat being discharged to the room), significant increases in performance and so on and now they seem to dominate the market.

We went from a vented Miele (which I still have in a large but rarely use) to a heat pump and the electricity bill has come WAY down. They have a huge impact on power consumption if you use the dryer a lot (inevitable in Ireland as it rains a lot).

 

[maytag85]

If Frigidaire sold their Unimatic washers in Europe back in the 1950's they would probably sell a lot of them, because they have a very fast spin speed, and Frigidaire also made condenser dryers in the 1950's.

 

[launderess]

I'll say it again

Condenser, heat pump, non-vented or whatever dryers are a solution to a problem. They may work well enough in that capacity and or to solve issues this or that government wants to push, but far as the USA market is concerned vented dryers will always dominate market sales.

As to the source of heat for such dryers it usually comes down to local utility costs, installation specifics and perhaps personal preferences.

In Manhattan and other parts of NYC where large multifamily buildings dominate installation of gas dryers may not be possible. That leaves electric, and even then depending upon wiring in apartment you may not even be able to get 208v-240v power and are stuck with 120v.

Meanwhile elsewhere such as on Staten Island gas dryers dominate. The place is largely private homes with both access to natural gas lines *and* exterior walls for venting.

Heat pump, condenser and so forth electric dryers are all very well; but a simple gas or even electric vented dryer can (and have) run for decades with minimal to nil care. In fact it is often the washing machine that dies and or otherwise wants replacing before a dryer. Hence many sellers *forcing* anyone interested to take them both as job lot.

Consumer Reports for years has advised housewives and others when buying a new washer if the dryer still works keep it. However then as now many persons wanted or want a matched set so there you are then.

As often demonstrated here in this group a gas or electric vented dryer decades old has been put back into service. Yes, some may need attention but there you are.

IIRC the largest energy efficiency gain from American dryers has come from forcing manufactures to include moisture sensors on all models regardless of energy source. Other than that many of today's offerings are not vastly different than what came before. Heating wattage may have decreased, but then again few to nil households are drying heavy and wet laundry that comes pretty much dripping out of a wringer washer.

Will give you that for those without options a condenser dryer and thus by extension perhaps a heat-pump unit can be an excellent choice. However as one has frequently stated our AEG OKO-Lavatherm is nearly next to useless. Weather in NYC is only "cold" enough about three to four months per year for the thing to work.