We're still talking dishwashers in this thread, right?
Do you use a Rinse Aid?
- Thread starter mich
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White Vinegar
I have never used the heated dry, it uses too much energy for how little it drys my plastics. The plates and silverware are always near dry in my whirlpool. We have never used rinse aid. I figured that white vinegar would be a cheap and easy solution. But I was wrong, and could barely tell a difference. After a few weeks, the vinegar started to leak from the rinse aid dispenser, and to my surprise the rubber gasket had changed shape from the vinegar and caused it to leak. Luckily I just rinsed it off and adjusted it to fit the hole again and it worked. No more vinegar for us. We then tried the finish jet dry and it caused too much sudsing in the main wash with finish powerball tabs. So we are back to nothing again. Our water hardness is 9 (ppm?).
I have never used the heated dry, it uses too much energy for how little it drys my plastics. The plates and silverware are always near dry in my whirlpool. We have never used rinse aid. I figured that white vinegar would be a cheap and easy solution. But I was wrong, and could barely tell a difference. After a few weeks, the vinegar started to leak from the rinse aid dispenser, and to my surprise the rubber gasket had changed shape from the vinegar and caused it to leak. Luckily I just rinsed it off and adjusted it to fit the hole again and it worked. No more vinegar for us. We then tried the finish jet dry and it caused too much sudsing in the main wash with finish powerball tabs. So we are back to nothing again. Our water hardness is 9 (ppm?).
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
We are talking of how various chemicals works, in this case of how rinse aid works, if making examples taking in exam what happens in a washing machine by using various compounds and chemicals, helps myself or others to understand how stuff works and why, then I think there is nothing wrong with that, as we are still In the subject, if you have a problem with that, please see to resolve yourself...as this is what this website and forum is all about, learn and share.
Thanks for understanding, and, if you don't I am going to sleep well tonight anyway...
Thanks for understanding, and, if you don't I am going to sleep well tonight anyway...
Just wondering, the swtch to fabric softener was rather sudden, without introduction.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
OK......I am sorry, then...
Louis, I admit that it does happen that at times I tend to get off topic, and would be glad that when I am doing that someone would let ne know, but at this time didn't think it was the case...
Thought that who was following would realize that, as for many discussions I see on here, they start from a thing, and as the discussion evolves they start speaking of stuff that are still pertinent with the starting subject, even if to someone just entering in the discussion many not seem so by looking at latest posts.... That happens all the times...
And you know, At first glance, your question didn't seem just a simple question but rather a critic, and of an acid bitch kind, at least sounded so....not the first time it happens here...If it was not, I am sorry then and apologize.
Also in general, as I have the occasion to:
I would so like that this attitude from some people in crirticizing and the race of always finding or make appear something wrong in what I write and what I do in here, woulld be at least applied to everyone who's writing or doing just the same of what I do that instead isn't told anything.... But when it comes about me...oh well... I see the occasion to throw s**t is not missed...
I usually take critics as an occasion to better myself, this is what life is about, learning from mistakes and trying being better, but I recognize when critics are done with a good purpose and when not, and when one do that with obvious bad intentions, well....I simply get mad.
Anyway, if I didn't be criticized for going off topic, then now I surely will, after this post.....and that would be so right, and I apologize in advance.
Would be anyway glad to continue via PM if you think there's still things to discuss about...
Louis, I admit that it does happen that at times I tend to get off topic, and would be glad that when I am doing that someone would let ne know, but at this time didn't think it was the case...
Thought that who was following would realize that, as for many discussions I see on here, they start from a thing, and as the discussion evolves they start speaking of stuff that are still pertinent with the starting subject, even if to someone just entering in the discussion many not seem so by looking at latest posts.... That happens all the times...
And you know, At first glance, your question didn't seem just a simple question but rather a critic, and of an acid bitch kind, at least sounded so....not the first time it happens here...If it was not, I am sorry then and apologize.
Also in general, as I have the occasion to:
I would so like that this attitude from some people in crirticizing and the race of always finding or make appear something wrong in what I write and what I do in here, woulld be at least applied to everyone who's writing or doing just the same of what I do that instead isn't told anything.... But when it comes about me...oh well... I see the occasion to throw s**t is not missed...
I usually take critics as an occasion to better myself, this is what life is about, learning from mistakes and trying being better, but I recognize when critics are done with a good purpose and when not, and when one do that with obvious bad intentions, well....I simply get mad.
Anyway, if I didn't be criticized for going off topic, then now I surely will, after this post.....and that would be so right, and I apologize in advance.
Would be anyway glad to continue via PM if you think there's still things to discuss about...
It wasn't meant as criticism, I just wondered if your messages hadn't end up in the wrong thread by accident, that's all.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Yes, now I see..
Again, sorry.
Again, sorry.
Forgot to add:
The dishwasher @ work uses Solid Power XL and Rinse Dry from Ecolab. It is a HOBART.
WK78
The dishwasher @ work uses Solid Power XL and Rinse Dry from Ecolab. It is a HOBART.
WK78
washingpowder
Well-known member
rinse aid residue
I stay away from store-bought rinse aid as well as all-in-one detergent.
I'm all about rinsing, even more than the actual washing. Those rinse-aid-includeds are supposed to stay in the water until the last rinse - which makes me believe they're using highly adhesive or concentrated formulas. Considering modern dishwasher have issues with rinsing regardless, one would think it might become even more of a problem.
I remember pouring myself a glass of water at a friend's house and seeing a bit of foam around the rim.
Using old fashioned white vinegar not only works as a wetting agent (while being completely natural), it reduces the pH of wash solution therefore increasing the rinsing efficiency.
I use it both as a rinse aid and fabric softener(additional bonus from the latter is setting the dyes).
Heard that it might disintegrate gaskets in the dispenser - however I went through European Bosch and Electrolux, old GE and current portable Maytag Jetclean - no issues whatsoever.
I stay away from store-bought rinse aid as well as all-in-one detergent.
I'm all about rinsing, even more than the actual washing. Those rinse-aid-includeds are supposed to stay in the water until the last rinse - which makes me believe they're using highly adhesive or concentrated formulas. Considering modern dishwasher have issues with rinsing regardless, one would think it might become even more of a problem.
I remember pouring myself a glass of water at a friend's house and seeing a bit of foam around the rim.
Using old fashioned white vinegar not only works as a wetting agent (while being completely natural), it reduces the pH of wash solution therefore increasing the rinsing efficiency.
I use it both as a rinse aid and fabric softener(additional bonus from the latter is setting the dyes).
Heard that it might disintegrate gaskets in the dispenser - however I went through European Bosch and Electrolux, old GE and current portable Maytag Jetclean - no issues whatsoever.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I guess I could do less of rinse aid or anyway use less of it if I had an air vented dry machine. But not with the crappy Bosch I have or any dishwasher I had that used to do condensing drying, and in which even by using the most TOL of rinse aids or Jet dry etc...i get most of the stuff still very very wet and I have to dry stuff with the towel not to get marks, not to mention all in one that I find being just the same thing of regular ones, but for the double of price...
I have now a question driven by thoughts:
I do wonder about the earlier rinse aids, and how they worked, were they different? .....you know, by the name they have in english rinse-aid they rather sound like something that would help the rinsing, just like sleep aid pills are called so as they helps you sleeping better...
In italian or other languages, the compound is called, "brillantante" or anyway the same word composition translates in the same litterally meaning, in spanish for example is "abrillantandor", and in english they would be best litterally translated as "shine maker" and or even "shine enhancer"...
Since I assume, rinse aids were not invented in here or in spain and or in countries where they call the compound that way, as I can tell you for certain here and or in these countries, dishwashers became more common well later than in other countries, that OTOH are the ones where it is called "rinse aid" , I so wonder if the compund has been known initially as a "rinse aid" and kept this name because earlier ones just limited to help the rinse, perhaps by being acid composition rather than having sheeting actions or silicons or whatever to avoid water to bead up on the stuff, dry faster, and or by making the thing shinier thanks to chemical enhancers meant for it.
I do use somwtimes the word rinse aid to refer to something that helps rinsing as I think of the word composition, , not actually referring to the dishwasher product, I know it will sound kinda misleading and it is ...but they actually are rinse aids if you think of it...aren't they?
[this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-10:23]
I have now a question driven by thoughts:
I do wonder about the earlier rinse aids, and how they worked, were they different? .....you know, by the name they have in english rinse-aid they rather sound like something that would help the rinsing, just like sleep aid pills are called so as they helps you sleeping better...
In italian or other languages, the compound is called, "brillantante" or anyway the same word composition translates in the same litterally meaning, in spanish for example is "abrillantandor", and in english they would be best litterally translated as "shine maker" and or even "shine enhancer"...
Since I assume, rinse aids were not invented in here or in spain and or in countries where they call the compound that way, as I can tell you for certain here and or in these countries, dishwashers became more common well later than in other countries, that OTOH are the ones where it is called "rinse aid" , I so wonder if the compund has been known initially as a "rinse aid" and kept this name because earlier ones just limited to help the rinse, perhaps by being acid composition rather than having sheeting actions or silicons or whatever to avoid water to bead up on the stuff, dry faster, and or by making the thing shinier thanks to chemical enhancers meant for it.
I do use somwtimes the word rinse aid to refer to something that helps rinsing as I think of the word composition, , not actually referring to the dishwasher product, I know it will sound kinda misleading and it is ...but they actually are rinse aids if you think of it...aren't they?
[this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-10:23]
mich
Well-known member
Freddy
Just hit the "sanitize" button, on your Bosch. It makes everything come out, cabinet ready, spotless & perfectly dry
Just hit the "sanitize" button, on your Bosch. It makes everything come out, cabinet ready, spotless & perfectly dry
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I don't have a "sanitize" button,... guess sanitize is just an higher temp rinse, the one i have should do a rinse in 65 degrees celsius or more as it does reach in wash, this on the stronger cycle (for pots) I do 99,9% of the times for everything, it does not clean on the stronger cycle, let alone setting a lighter one, perhaps it reaches even more than 65 degrees clesius in the rinse, but for sure it reaches the 65 ..which should be the same or similar of a sanitize, I think.
Anyway I don't have this option and anyway I am of the opinion a good machine should do that on it's own, especially on cycles meant to for stuff that stand higher temps, not need you to press special features, it's her job to wash and dry them, basical job of a respectable dishwasher!...yet, the stuff gets decently dried only when as soon as I notice it drains last rinse water I stop and open it, if I wait more and wait the machine to finish until she actually says so with the end of cycle light coming on ( after the useless drying cycle) then they all still be very wet and just warm, not hot to dry themselves letting the door opened, and will have to pass them with the towel...but that is fine, as i would have to pass and check everything anyway because many stuff won't be clean, how I would like you could be here to see it with your eyes!!!!![this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-13:05]
Anyway I don't have this option and anyway I am of the opinion a good machine should do that on it's own, especially on cycles meant to for stuff that stand higher temps, not need you to press special features, it's her job to wash and dry them, basical job of a respectable dishwasher!...yet, the stuff gets decently dried only when as soon as I notice it drains last rinse water I stop and open it, if I wait more and wait the machine to finish until she actually says so with the end of cycle light coming on ( after the useless drying cycle) then they all still be very wet and just warm, not hot to dry themselves letting the door opened, and will have to pass them with the towel...but that is fine, as i would have to pass and check everything anyway because many stuff won't be clean, how I would like you could be here to see it with your eyes!!!!![this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-13:05]
Sheeting ='s Better Rinsing
Hence "rinse aid".
As stated up thread Cascade long ago added "sheeting action" to it's dishwashing detergents to deal with spots. Depending upon several conditions that may be all a housewife or anyone else needed. That being said rinse agents have been around since the 1950's or so. They are mentioned in my Hotpoint service manuals just as you can find reference in such publications for other brands.
At first rinse agents were solids like the Jet Dry basket you hung in the machine. Then came liquids which more or less began to dominate as manufacturers produced at first add on dispensers then made them standard equipment.
Early dishwashers would have needed rinse agents more to prevent spotting and help with keeping yibbles down more than anything else. This is because most used some sort of drying system at the end of the cycle along with heated rinses. When you have hot water out of the taps running 140F to 180F, along with even a puny 700 watt heater, you are going to get rinses hot enough that dishes will either flash dry or do so quickly with some sort of heating element.
However in this post Energy Crisis world where households often have water heaters set to 120F to 130F and dishwashers as a rule either do not heat rinses or allow the consumer to turn that feature off; yes, you probably are going to need something in the final rinse to speed convection drying. More so if you want dishes to dry without spots or streaks.
Early on rinse aids were simply called "wetting agents" because that is what they did. Chemically they made water slippery by breaking down surface tension. In this manner water falls into sheets and not droplets, so no spotting.
Many modern dishwashers no longer give two or three rinses by default, so whatever "rinse aid" in the detergent should in theory hang around for the following rinse. That is the theory behind the "powerball" used by Finish. Personally have always found those tablets too high in surfactants which cause excess foaming. Yes, dishware comes out gleaming but often at the price of my dishwasher being lumbered with forcing froth through the spray arms instead of water.
Hence "rinse aid".
As stated up thread Cascade long ago added "sheeting action" to it's dishwashing detergents to deal with spots. Depending upon several conditions that may be all a housewife or anyone else needed. That being said rinse agents have been around since the 1950's or so. They are mentioned in my Hotpoint service manuals just as you can find reference in such publications for other brands.
At first rinse agents were solids like the Jet Dry basket you hung in the machine. Then came liquids which more or less began to dominate as manufacturers produced at first add on dispensers then made them standard equipment.
Early dishwashers would have needed rinse agents more to prevent spotting and help with keeping yibbles down more than anything else. This is because most used some sort of drying system at the end of the cycle along with heated rinses. When you have hot water out of the taps running 140F to 180F, along with even a puny 700 watt heater, you are going to get rinses hot enough that dishes will either flash dry or do so quickly with some sort of heating element.
However in this post Energy Crisis world where households often have water heaters set to 120F to 130F and dishwashers as a rule either do not heat rinses or allow the consumer to turn that feature off; yes, you probably are going to need something in the final rinse to speed convection drying. More so if you want dishes to dry without spots or streaks.
Early on rinse aids were simply called "wetting agents" because that is what they did. Chemically they made water slippery by breaking down surface tension. In this manner water falls into sheets and not droplets, so no spotting.
Many modern dishwashers no longer give two or three rinses by default, so whatever "rinse aid" in the detergent should in theory hang around for the following rinse. That is the theory behind the "powerball" used by Finish. Personally have always found those tablets too high in surfactants which cause excess foaming. Yes, dishware comes out gleaming but often at the price of my dishwasher being lumbered with forcing froth through the spray arms instead of water.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Thanks Launderess
I knew well about Cascade....as I also have some boxes of the stuff in my stash.
As I know enough about earlier dishwasher, the "historical" aspect....and the wetting action of rinse aids. And so the chemical aspect...
That said, I just thought that whenever in a detergent and or in an actual " final rinse" rinse aid, the sheeting action they do, would have been something that do actually better and aid the shining, and the drying, rather than the rinsing itself meant as operation in which you have residues of wash solution or else removed by water...
So I came to wonder about the name...rinse aid and it's origin...maybe it's because I am used to hear it called "shine maker" and think of it that way from a multilingual mindset, so, that thing that makes stuff shinier ..so I do keep thinking of it like something that just makes more about the shining by avoiding water sitting and make droplets, and so the drying, rather than for the rinse, meant as the process/operation of rinsing actually...it is and was used in rinsing for the most, yes....but the final use it does actually, so it's final goal, do better the drying and the formation of droplets (so make the rinse water fall down and do not make it sit, with the goal to make stuff more shining and brillant)...not an aid for the rinse itself.....
But, it is an aid for water to fall down, so rinse aid, it be meant as " rinse water aid-----> to fall down /or not sit" shortened in just "rinse aid"... But I think you can come to realize it could seem meaning another thing from a "shine enhancer/ maker" term user's point of view...I do hope I am clear...
Interesting is how in different languages certain concepts do changes, and how modern words and phrasing are just a matter of " how you see it".... that has little to do with language roots...as for taking as example german, which is in anglo- derived language with many similitudes in english, rinse aid it is called anyway klarspüler.... Klar: clear, transparent, shine, brillant spüler: cleaner, actually more rather like something act to clean, or belonging inncleaning or purifying....so also a compound or a machine, it also may mean dishwasher...
[this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-17:26]
I knew well about Cascade....as I also have some boxes of the stuff in my stash.
As I know enough about earlier dishwasher, the "historical" aspect....and the wetting action of rinse aids. And so the chemical aspect...
That said, I just thought that whenever in a detergent and or in an actual " final rinse" rinse aid, the sheeting action they do, would have been something that do actually better and aid the shining, and the drying, rather than the rinsing itself meant as operation in which you have residues of wash solution or else removed by water...
So I came to wonder about the name...rinse aid and it's origin...maybe it's because I am used to hear it called "shine maker" and think of it that way from a multilingual mindset, so, that thing that makes stuff shinier ..so I do keep thinking of it like something that just makes more about the shining by avoiding water sitting and make droplets, and so the drying, rather than for the rinse, meant as the process/operation of rinsing actually...it is and was used in rinsing for the most, yes....but the final use it does actually, so it's final goal, do better the drying and the formation of droplets (so make the rinse water fall down and do not make it sit, with the goal to make stuff more shining and brillant)...not an aid for the rinse itself.....
But, it is an aid for water to fall down, so rinse aid, it be meant as " rinse water aid-----> to fall down /or not sit" shortened in just "rinse aid"... But I think you can come to realize it could seem meaning another thing from a "shine enhancer/ maker" term user's point of view...I do hope I am clear...
Interesting is how in different languages certain concepts do changes, and how modern words and phrasing are just a matter of " how you see it".... that has little to do with language roots...as for taking as example german, which is in anglo- derived language with many similitudes in english, rinse aid it is called anyway klarspüler.... Klar: clear, transparent, shine, brillant spüler: cleaner, actually more rather like something act to clean, or belonging inncleaning or purifying....so also a compound or a machine, it also may mean dishwasher...
[this post was last edited: 6/6/2014-17:26]
retromania
Well-known member
Thank you!
Thank you to the anonymous person(s) that left two boxes of finish dishwasher tabs for me at my place of employment. What a surprise! Thank you again!
Thank you to the anonymous person(s) that left two boxes of finish dishwasher tabs for me at my place of employment. What a surprise! Thank you again!
Reopening The Debate
As one has now moved to using the vintage MM have found RA is essential. If not dishes simply will not dry properly unless the long (and energy intensive) heated dry cycle is used.
Do not like using heated dry cycles on dishwashers not only because of energy use but find racks (especially lower) have less damage (rust, degrading of coating, etc...) when not routinely exposed to the heat coming off those exposed elements.
Sadly the MM does not allow one to adjust the amount of rinse aid so am not sure how much it sends into the final rinse. In our order Frigidaire one could tell when RA was dispensed because often the motor slowed down as a result of the froth created. One would hear the forceful spray of rinse water muffled upon injection of RA as foam built up. Not a bit of that with the MM, though often there is a layer of froth on the water remaining in the sump after the cycle is completed.
Am going to look into finding commercial "low temp" RA such as those made by JohnsonDiversey. What one finds is that while things come out totally clean from the MM sometimes more water clings/remains than what one likes. This even hours after the machine has completed the cycle. Suppose one could simply lift the lid and allow things to "air dry", but there you are then.
As one has now moved to using the vintage MM have found RA is essential. If not dishes simply will not dry properly unless the long (and energy intensive) heated dry cycle is used.
Do not like using heated dry cycles on dishwashers not only because of energy use but find racks (especially lower) have less damage (rust, degrading of coating, etc...) when not routinely exposed to the heat coming off those exposed elements.
Sadly the MM does not allow one to adjust the amount of rinse aid so am not sure how much it sends into the final rinse. In our order Frigidaire one could tell when RA was dispensed because often the motor slowed down as a result of the froth created. One would hear the forceful spray of rinse water muffled upon injection of RA as foam built up. Not a bit of that with the MM, though often there is a layer of froth on the water remaining in the sump after the cycle is completed.
Am going to look into finding commercial "low temp" RA such as those made by JohnsonDiversey. What one finds is that while things come out totally clean from the MM sometimes more water clings/remains than what one likes. This even hours after the machine has completed the cycle. Suppose one could simply lift the lid and allow things to "air dry", but there you are then.
whirlcool
Well-known member
I worry about what chemicals rinse aids are depositing on my clean dishes. Is it harmful in any way? I don't like seeing my morning glass of water filled with foam on top of the water.
Rinse agents are mostly blends of surfactants
Such as ethoxylated alcohols along with urea, alcohol, fragrance, coloring, etc.. in small amounts dissolved in lots of water (for liquid types), thus with proper dilution do not pose a major health risk to humans. Every MSDS I've read (and have read a lot) for commercial and or domestic RAs state they are not hazardous to human health when used as directed. OTOH coming into contact with undiluted product is another matter. There by ingestion yes, the stuff *may* be pretty toxic.
It comes down to six of one and half a dozen of another. Many dishwashers both vintage and modern will not deliver good results without rinse/drying agents. More so the ones lacking internal heating elements or other methods for drying aside from convection.
If you are fine with the potential for streaks, spots, and yibbles, and also do not mind less than stellar drying without using heat, then one assumes you can skip rinse aid.
Tried going without RA once with the old Kenmore and it was a disaster. Without using the full heated drying cycle things were still wet the next morning when one went to empty the thing. Those "green" RAs such as the offering by Ecover was just as bad, as it did totally nothing.
Such as ethoxylated alcohols along with urea, alcohol, fragrance, coloring, etc.. in small amounts dissolved in lots of water (for liquid types), thus with proper dilution do not pose a major health risk to humans. Every MSDS I've read (and have read a lot) for commercial and or domestic RAs state they are not hazardous to human health when used as directed. OTOH coming into contact with undiluted product is another matter. There by ingestion yes, the stuff *may* be pretty toxic.
It comes down to six of one and half a dozen of another. Many dishwashers both vintage and modern will not deliver good results without rinse/drying agents. More so the ones lacking internal heating elements or other methods for drying aside from convection.
If you are fine with the potential for streaks, spots, and yibbles, and also do not mind less than stellar drying without using heat, then one assumes you can skip rinse aid.
Tried going without RA once with the old Kenmore and it was a disaster. Without using the full heated drying cycle things were still wet the next morning when one went to empty the thing. Those "green" RAs such as the offering by Ecover was just as bad, as it did totally nothing.
Rinse Aid In DWs?
Only if absolutely necessary.
My late 80s WP Power=Clean DWs always produces spot-free DRY glasses, pots and pans dishes, silverware and dishes without any RA. I always use Hi-Temp Wash so the main wash and final rinse hit 150F, the door is left closed overnight and whenever I get around to unloading the dishes are dry. The only exception I ever have is a plastic container which may not be completely dry.
Only if absolutely necessary.
My late 80s WP Power=Clean DWs always produces spot-free DRY glasses, pots and pans dishes, silverware and dishes without any RA. I always use Hi-Temp Wash so the main wash and final rinse hit 150F, the door is left closed overnight and whenever I get around to unloading the dishes are dry. The only exception I ever have is a plastic container which may not be completely dry.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Jet Dry had a product on the market called "Jet Dry Turbo" that was supposedly made to help plastics dry faster in the DW. Our Maytag manual states that even with heated dry, we may find some water on plastic items. This is normal. Just use a rinse aid to combat the problem.
We get an occasional spot or two on a glass without using a rinse aid. But it's acceptable to us.
We get an occasional spot or two on a glass without using a rinse aid. But it's acceptable to us.
