stevet
Well-known member
Just contemplating a purchase of one of the Hot water circulators. Has anyone used this brand or have any critiques of it or any other brand?
Energy savings? Anyone have one of these?
- Thread starter stevet
- Start date
whirlcool
Well-known member
While we don't have one I have heard that they work quite good. You have to install a recirculation pump and associated plumbing to make it work correctly.
I've been looking into something along the lines like this for the dishwasher. Instant hot water without having to purge the line after every cycle would be a nice change, especailly since the hot water line for the dishwasher is furthest away from the hot water heater.
At work, there is a setup than runs off of 220v to provide hot water for at each break room sink on every floor. They work quite well and provide hot water in less than 2 seconds.
At work, there is a setup than runs off of 220v to provide hot water for at each break room sink on every floor. They work quite well and provide hot water in less than 2 seconds.
Hi Steve,
The last home I lived in had this type of pump.
It did work quite well. It was needed because the hot water supply pipe to the kitchen and to the master bath was so far away from the tank.
The pump that I had was regulated by a timer for it's off and on time. I set it to come on about 15 minutes before the first showers of the day began, and the same for the last heavy usage of hot water during the evening. I honestly would have to say that over a years of using it, it saved thousand of gallons of water not going down the drain to wait for hot water.
Have you been shopping for one? What are the prices running? I did not have to install the other pump that was in the house I was living in so I have no idea what price was paid.
Thanks for getting me to thinking about one of these pumps again.
Brent
The last home I lived in had this type of pump.
It did work quite well. It was needed because the hot water supply pipe to the kitchen and to the master bath was so far away from the tank.
The pump that I had was regulated by a timer for it's off and on time. I set it to come on about 15 minutes before the first showers of the day began, and the same for the last heavy usage of hot water during the evening. I honestly would have to say that over a years of using it, it saved thousand of gallons of water not going down the drain to wait for hot water.
Have you been shopping for one? What are the prices running? I did not have to install the other pump that was in the house I was living in so I have no idea what price was paid.
Thanks for getting me to thinking about one of these pumps again.
Brent
launderess
Well-known member
Many Commercial and Laundromats
Use such systems to ensure washers get "hot" water.
Use such systems to ensure washers get "hot" water.
There are tradeoffs.
This type of system can save lots of water, but it is a balence with energy savings you should also think of. How much heat will be lost through the pipes as the water circulates? The water heater will probably run more because it is maintaining the temperature in a long run of pipe in addition to the tank. Insulating the pipes will be a tremendous help. For something like a dishwasher or a washing machine that could benefit from water over 120 segrees, it may be more energy efficient to use a small tankless water heater at the site of the dishwasher or washing machine of only enough capacity to provide hot water for JUST the appliance in question. For everything else, turn down the tank-heater to 120.
It would be really nice to have a hot shower immediately,
Dave
This type of system can save lots of water, but it is a balence with energy savings you should also think of. How much heat will be lost through the pipes as the water circulates? The water heater will probably run more because it is maintaining the temperature in a long run of pipe in addition to the tank. Insulating the pipes will be a tremendous help. For something like a dishwasher or a washing machine that could benefit from water over 120 segrees, it may be more energy efficient to use a small tankless water heater at the site of the dishwasher or washing machine of only enough capacity to provide hot water for JUST the appliance in question. For everything else, turn down the tank-heater to 120.
It would be really nice to have a hot shower immediately,
Dave
This can be done without a pump. The trick is to run a small line, PEX works great for this, from the furthest point in your system back to the water heater. Using a back flow preventer valve attach the line to the heaters drain, Convection will keep the water circulating.
This is on my "to-do" list.
This is on my "to-do" list.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
Use a timed recirculator in a ring circuit!
We have a ring circuit for hot water but the recirculator come on only on demand. The path from the boiler and solar collector is some 20 metres long so hot water takes some time to arrive, this was accounted for so we fitted a reciculator. Having it on all day is a terrible waste of energy because of heat dispersion (the pipes are PVC and neoprene insulated but still heat loss is huge) so the pump stays on only from 7:30 to 8:30 in the moring and all the other times there is a button in each toilet that activates it, connected to the light switch that runs the pump for 1 minute, the time necessary to bring the hot water to the tap and then stop it so there isn't any energy waste and no water waste. I definitely recommend you a solution similar to the one we put up, the best trade off with energy saving and confort
We have a ring circuit for hot water but the recirculator come on only on demand. The path from the boiler and solar collector is some 20 metres long so hot water takes some time to arrive, this was accounted for so we fitted a reciculator. Having it on all day is a terrible waste of energy because of heat dispersion (the pipes are PVC and neoprene insulated but still heat loss is huge) so the pump stays on only from 7:30 to 8:30 in the moring and all the other times there is a button in each toilet that activates it, connected to the light switch that runs the pump for 1 minute, the time necessary to bring the hot water to the tap and then stop it so there isn't any energy waste and no water waste. I definitely recommend you a solution similar to the one we put up, the best trade off with energy saving and confort
panthera
Well-known member
Home Depot
had a kit on sale in September for not quite $200 (plus the cost of the extra line).
I imagine you could achieve 80% of the savings for 20% of the cost and effort simply by insulating the runs really well, lowering the temperature of the water heater to the minimum needed (the warmer the lines, the greater the heat loss) and the return line for convection circulation.
When my parents' medical situation forced a reduction in household warm water temperature below 125F, I put a five gallon water heater in at 145F right in front of the dishwasher and FL washer.
The combined energy consumption dropped below the original by more than one/third - that run of over 75" from water heater to kitchen sink at 145F was basically just heating the floors.
had a kit on sale in September for not quite $200 (plus the cost of the extra line).
I imagine you could achieve 80% of the savings for 20% of the cost and effort simply by insulating the runs really well, lowering the temperature of the water heater to the minimum needed (the warmer the lines, the greater the heat loss) and the return line for convection circulation.
When my parents' medical situation forced a reduction in household warm water temperature below 125F, I put a five gallon water heater in at 145F right in front of the dishwasher and FL washer.
The combined energy consumption dropped below the original by more than one/third - that run of over 75" from water heater to kitchen sink at 145F was basically just heating the floors.
Hot water line purge
I have the same solution as MattL's "to do" one. It really works: when no water is used, convection is not enough for recirculation, so heat waste is minimized. When you open a tap you' ll have HW by 30 seconds as the flow boostes recirculation.
Dishwasher : since Middle Ages miele has been recommending hot fill connex in case of gaz/solar/heat pump HW. We have 60°C/140°F gaz heated HW so our old ten-litres-at each-fill G507 took only 30mins to run 2 prewashes+main w+2 rinses+dry @ 50°C. No problems with china & crystal : actually the tap has a water mixer like the ones in showers, so in these cases we set it to warm.
Our current DW uses 1/3 of water so we always run programs with prewash to warm up the tub
ELEKTROSPAR - Today Miele TOL DWs (G17XX G18XX G28XX aka known in USA as LaPerla)have a "no heat-hot fill only" program that runs with the 2 old fashioned prewashes to warm up yet uses 20 litres vs 50 of my old
I really wish this program were as a standard on all their machines. It's very useful when one has many electric loads connected
I have the same solution as MattL's "to do" one. It really works: when no water is used, convection is not enough for recirculation, so heat waste is minimized. When you open a tap you' ll have HW by 30 seconds as the flow boostes recirculation.
Dishwasher : since Middle Ages miele has been recommending hot fill connex in case of gaz/solar/heat pump HW. We have 60°C/140°F gaz heated HW so our old ten-litres-at each-fill G507 took only 30mins to run 2 prewashes+main w+2 rinses+dry @ 50°C. No problems with china & crystal : actually the tap has a water mixer like the ones in showers, so in these cases we set it to warm.
Our current DW uses 1/3 of water so we always run programs with prewash to warm up the tub
ELEKTROSPAR - Today Miele TOL DWs (G17XX G18XX G28XX aka known in USA as LaPerla)have a "no heat-hot fill only" program that runs with the 2 old fashioned prewashes to warm up yet uses 20 litres vs 50 of my old
I really wish this program were as a standard on all their machines. It's very useful when one has many electric loads connected
seeitrun2006
Well-known member
We have one and love it!
We had one put in next to the water heater when we had our house buildt in August 1998. Our master bathroom and laundry room is 30 feet from the hot water heater. The kitchen is about 25 feet so it is a must in our house. Other wise it would take at least 10~12 minutes for the water to get hot enough to take a shower. Luckily on the dishwasher we use the Hi-Temp wash option so that would never be a problem. Our water lines run thru an unheated crawl space under the house.
Over all it does save you money on your water bill plus it saves you hundred gallons of water. Since we are so prone to drought here in the south you don't waste a lot of water.
Our pump runs 24/7 except when we are going to be out of town for an extended period of time. My wife's Aunt and Uncle who live in West VA. turned us on to it.
I personally think they are a worth while investment.
We had one put in next to the water heater when we had our house buildt in August 1998. Our master bathroom and laundry room is 30 feet from the hot water heater. The kitchen is about 25 feet so it is a must in our house. Other wise it would take at least 10~12 minutes for the water to get hot enough to take a shower. Luckily on the dishwasher we use the Hi-Temp wash option so that would never be a problem. Our water lines run thru an unheated crawl space under the house.
Over all it does save you money on your water bill plus it saves you hundred gallons of water. Since we are so prone to drought here in the south you don't waste a lot of water.
Our pump runs 24/7 except when we are going to be out of town for an extended period of time. My wife's Aunt and Uncle who live in West VA. turned us on to it.
I personally think they are a worth while investment.
I had a circulator pump installed into the new building I just had completed. It houses a hair salon and the upper 2 floors for our new home. With 5 shampoo sinks and kitchen and bathroom plus washer it makes an incredible difference. Instant hot water is great. I have not notice that big of an increase in my gas bill with this pump. It is on 24/7. Will be great when we move in upstairs. No waiting for hot water. Tanks are in the basement so there would be a lot of water wasted just waiting for the hot water. The only time I shut it off is to flush the water heaters. Which reminds me I should start a thread about flushing. My plumber picked up one at the supply house. Not that much around $200.00
Jon
Jon-
Jon
Jon-
stevet
Well-known member
Great responses!
I had a feeling that this would be a spirited thread!
First of all, I have been a proponent of the convection recirculation system for years having read about it in some magazine way back. My uncle always had problems with his dishwasher filling with "cooled" water as all his water lines in the unheated basement were uninsulated 3/4 brass pipes. His machine was probably no more than 25 feet from the hot water heater but he has alot of heat loss when the weather got cooler. I suggested that he try running a return line one size smaller(1/2") with a check valve to the bottom of the water heater by teeing off the drain valve and having the water run back to the heater that way.
I cannot tell you how amazed he was at how well this worked for them, not only in the kitchen but also in the bathroom on the first floor and to the apartment upstairs. The results in the dishwasher were so much better as well.
I was going to install the same thing in my house in Valley Stream, NY to get the water to the kitchen hotter faster instead of running the water before starting the dishwasher, but we wound up moving to Florida before I started that project.
Now that we are down here, our master bath is more than 70 feet away from the electric water heater and takes nearly 5 minutes of running the shower to get it hot enough to get in.
At 2.5 gpm, that is a waste of nearly 13 gallons of water for every shower per person. It sure adds up fast. Less time is required for the main shower and about 5 seconds for the bathroom shower in the garage which is right next to the heater.
All in all it can add up fast. In addition, whatever our water consumption is, we are charged a slightly higher rate for sewage on the water consumed.
I had considered the installation of a 6 gallon 115 v heater next to the dishwasher but that would not solve the major waste of water which is just the running of it to the far reaches of the house as well as wasting the water at the kitchen sink for the DW. So now we wash all the other non DW items so that the water is already hot and then turn on the dishwasher. But given some of the longer washes, the water can still run cold and fill the unit with cooler water than needed.
When we first moved down here, I was going to buy the Grundfoss circulation system with the remote controlled pump with the buttons in remote locations like the kitchen and main bath but never got around to it.I liked that system because it was On Demand and would be less wasteful. But they are now very expensive and the Watts unit goes for 199.00 at HD.
I will probably spring for it shortly as the colder weather is now here and already the water is being run longer prior to showers.
Man, I would love to get another water bill with even more reduced consumption like after installing the LG FL machine. 3000 gals less a month! Wow!
I will keep you posted for sure.
I had a feeling that this would be a spirited thread!
First of all, I have been a proponent of the convection recirculation system for years having read about it in some magazine way back. My uncle always had problems with his dishwasher filling with "cooled" water as all his water lines in the unheated basement were uninsulated 3/4 brass pipes. His machine was probably no more than 25 feet from the hot water heater but he has alot of heat loss when the weather got cooler. I suggested that he try running a return line one size smaller(1/2") with a check valve to the bottom of the water heater by teeing off the drain valve and having the water run back to the heater that way.
I cannot tell you how amazed he was at how well this worked for them, not only in the kitchen but also in the bathroom on the first floor and to the apartment upstairs. The results in the dishwasher were so much better as well.
I was going to install the same thing in my house in Valley Stream, NY to get the water to the kitchen hotter faster instead of running the water before starting the dishwasher, but we wound up moving to Florida before I started that project.
Now that we are down here, our master bath is more than 70 feet away from the electric water heater and takes nearly 5 minutes of running the shower to get it hot enough to get in.
At 2.5 gpm, that is a waste of nearly 13 gallons of water for every shower per person. It sure adds up fast. Less time is required for the main shower and about 5 seconds for the bathroom shower in the garage which is right next to the heater.
All in all it can add up fast. In addition, whatever our water consumption is, we are charged a slightly higher rate for sewage on the water consumed.
I had considered the installation of a 6 gallon 115 v heater next to the dishwasher but that would not solve the major waste of water which is just the running of it to the far reaches of the house as well as wasting the water at the kitchen sink for the DW. So now we wash all the other non DW items so that the water is already hot and then turn on the dishwasher. But given some of the longer washes, the water can still run cold and fill the unit with cooler water than needed.
When we first moved down here, I was going to buy the Grundfoss circulation system with the remote controlled pump with the buttons in remote locations like the kitchen and main bath but never got around to it.I liked that system because it was On Demand and would be less wasteful. But they are now very expensive and the Watts unit goes for 199.00 at HD.
I will probably spring for it shortly as the colder weather is now here and already the water is being run longer prior to showers.
Man, I would love to get another water bill with even more reduced consumption like after installing the LG FL machine. 3000 gals less a month! Wow!
I will keep you posted for sure.
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