EVERYBODY should read this!

[jeffg]

> Time and time again, our consumer magazine has shown that front load machines cause less wear and tear on clothes <

Not surprising, as the corkscrew agitators used on most TL's today (e.g. Whirlpools) are downright brutal. But 20+ year lifespans for clothes are common with better and/or classic agitators.

 

[qsd-dan]

"Having seen how a modern Maytag toploader left my friend's cottons tshirts and jumpers bobbled, stretched and with small holes in them, despite being loaded correctly (if anything underloaded) and a lot of them being washed in wash bags. This is after about 3 months usage."

Not sure what brand Maytag (perhaps the Orbitals?) but I have towels that were passed down 3 generations of use to the early 60's that were washed in my great grandmother E2L wringer, my grandmothers HA806, and my A712. They ALL show minimal wear, especially since they saw repeat use from day 1 up until I permanently retired them to the closet last year.

I still wear clothes from 1993 when I was a freshmen in highschool (yeah, they still fit). The only wear is from use, especailly since I have retired them to working on cars and vintage washer/dryers, as well as garden work since 1999/2000. Also, keep in mind, until I became a member of this site in 2006, the Maytag was severally overloaded......every load......and yet wear was still minimal, if any at all.

 

[deeprinser]

Water required !

Call me old fashioned ....

I still cannot see how modern FL machines can wash and rinse a full 12lb + load properly with only 45-50 litres of water !
Rinses are essential for removing soap/detergent/soil/scum from the fabric.
I have to rinse each full load 10 times with my FL .Truly.

After that rant I'm now retreating to my bunker ....
I have supplies !

 

[favorit]

Yesterday frontloaders vs today ones

Let's try to make out why older FL use(d) higher water levels.

1) Most of vintage water level sensors weren't so accurate as modern ones. In case of a very adsorbant load (e.g. terry towelling) many machines didn't sense the level had dropped down because of the high adsorbancy. So the trick was to use high levels.

The same trick is used in some laundromats. Owners want their washers free as faster as possible, to have more customers on each washer (higher productivity). High levels saturate loads faster and are "forgiving" on "overloads"

2) Mrs Average Housewife felt guilty to run the washer if it was not totally loaded (sometimes overloaded...). Go figure "delicate" cycle was considered a waste of water/energy cause the machine can be loaded only up to one third of the cylinder, so many people kept on using "elbow grease" cycle

In the last 20 years EU housewives changed their frame of mind. They needed to wash dayly SMALLER loads, often more times a day

The half load button/level was no more enough for these new habits. Lets' see why

1) If very small cotton/permapress loads are washed in too much water the frontloader doesn't lift and tumble them. They rotate while floating as in a gentle cycle, so there isn't enough mechanical action.

2) Another problem was the lack of speed control : half loads are lighter, so the drum rotated faster than with a full load.
Sometimes small loads weren't washed properly cause they went stuck on the drum as the machine kept on washing on a somewhat distribution speed (typical mid 80's Candy bug)

So washers were redesigned to be self adaptive. Smaller loads has more place to move. With proper level and wash speed they lift and drop more effectively, so the wash bath time can be cut down. Oterwise on full loads the motor senses a bigger load to move so the board increases washing times, number of rinses, spin profiles ....

IMHO Zanussi's Jetsystem (mid eighties) is a milestone in this scenario. Not a case Electrolux inherited it and keeps on using it after 25 years.
Others use rainwash systems / watermill-wheels system where baffles lift and spray water on the load to achieve a faster saturation

Here is a pic of Larry (CleanTeamofNYC)'s E'lux frontloader.
From a european P.O.W. it seems underloaded (or it could be a proper permapress load). But this machine has a wash bath lasting from 9 up to 21 minutes only, so these whites can get really white within 20 mins only if they have all this place to tumble freely.
As Ronhic said, just wonder why E'lux doesn't put Time Manager sys even on american washers

RINSING: despite they use less water (well built) modern frontoaders rinse better than old ones. My miele W844 (52 litres per a 5kg cotton load) rinses better than the W780 (115 litres per 5 kg cotton load). The older machine really spins before the last rinse, the newer one spins @ 1000 rpm at the end of the wash bath and of each rinse.

The older permapress rinses poorly cause has final spin only, the W844 has a nice permapress rinse cause of interim spins

Last words : yesterday I boilwashed a single bed set, 4 terry towels and a couple of kitchen towels in my 10 y.o. miele
It took only 75 mins from tap cold water to final spin, where it usually take 2 hr for a full load. Then ran shirts & trousers on permapress short 30°C (40 mins). Frontloaders don't always take hours to wash ...

 

[fridgiman]

Hey guys,

Of course I was speaking of American made FL's. I can't speak of European models as far as quaility goes. What I do know however, is that FL's in America are junk. With the long cycle times they just do not last long.

As far as gentleness of wash, I'm afraid that maybe I wasn't clear enough. With any toploader you have to watch the agitation speed. Most people just don't know how to wash. You have to choose agitation speed carefully and no overloading with a TL. You cannot wash a washable dress shirt, slacks or dress on fast agitation and expect no damage. I had a 1989 Maytag TL for 15 years (sold it with my home), washed everything in it and never had any damage, pilling, etc. All my clothes lasted forever and were very clean.
So I stand by what I said. If a TL is used correctly, you have less damage than washing the same garment for 4 times longer in a FL. Even Consumer Reports, who has been a strong advocate of FL's has finally admitted that the new longer wash times on FL's are hard on garments.

 

[golittlesport]

2 hours???

Fridgiman, Not sure where u get the two hour cycle for FL's. I have a Frigidaire FL and the normal cycle is 45 minutes. That is not much longer than a top loader cycle.

Glad you like TL's and that you have one. But I doubt I will ever go back to a "modern" TL. I've used both types and get better results from a FL. To each their own.

 

[ronhic]

You cannot wash a washable dress shirt, slacks or dress on f

Maybe not in a Top Loader...

...but I sit here in the knowledge that I wash 95% of our washing on the Normal cycle of my front loader...

A fairly normal load would be

10 x business/dress shirts
5 x undershirts
10 x t-shirts

plus a couple of other smaller things...

This is not a capacity load, more 'comfortably full' or about 2/3 and gets done on the 'Normal 40c' cycle which even when 'quick' is pressed is still 68min....

Fridgiman, I really don't need to think as such as to which cycle I use for the vast majority of my clothes. Cottons and synthetics all tend to get washed on the normal cotton cycle all mixed together in a warm wash at no less that 2/3 - full capacity.

Wool tends to be the only thing that I ensure that I use the appropriate cycle for.

And that is why us 'front load users' tend to bang on about wash action and gentleness...provided we aren't doing a 'Hot' wash, we really don't need to pay anywhere near as much attention to the overall contents of the machine. We KNOW that we can fill it and the materials won't suffer. A 'normal' tumble wash in a front load machine is much more gentle then the 'normal' agitation speed of a top loader and as a result, less consideration needs to be given when loading.

 

[hoover1100]

The only thing that I wouldn't put in the normal cycle i

are silks and woollens, not that I have any. My washer has never damaged a thing, and this is with 3 hour cycle times.

Don't really appreciate you suggesting my friend dosen't know how to wash, he is a member on here and most certainly does. The wash results from this (orbital) Maytag were disgusting to say the least on the heavy duty cycle, so it was a case of do you want clean (and I use this term lightly), ruined clothes or dirty clothes? In that situation what would be the point in running a cycle where the clothes will come out even less clean than from the heavy cycle?

Looks like I am once again forced to stress that the only difference between US and European FL's is that they US ones don't have long enough cycle times.

Matt

 

[gyrafoam]

I have an old Philco Bendix Combo (a gift from Kim) from the early sixties and a 1997 FriGEMore I bought new. I find they both do a good job with most of my laundry although the ground-in heavy soil from a day of working in the garden will prove hard to remove. I sometimes must double the detergent----not usually a problem in the T/L's but I have to be careful in the F/L's or I get sudz-lock. The Sears detergent is nearly suds-less so it works great for the most part.
Now that I live here in Roanoke, I prefer the phosphate-laced Mexican detergents (FOCA in particular)because our water here is fairly hard.
The P/B Combo is pretty quick about getting a load done and does not mess around deciding whether to spin or not. The FriGEMore wastes a lot of time deciding whether or not it will die a terrible death by spinning slightly out of balance.
The P/B Combo also uses a lot more water. I like that.

If these two F/L's were the only two machines I would ever have to use for the rest of my life, I'm sure I would be just fine with them.

However, whether it be front-loader or top-loader they are both a hell of a lot more gentle on clothes than pounding them on a f%#king rock or rubbing them on a ribbed washboard. and since it is the turbulence that forces the water through the fabric and cleans the clothes, then I'll go for more turbulence every time! I love turbulence!

I have become jaded and spoiled by all the wonderful vintage American top-loaders that line my basement walls. They are all water-hogs. The used all kinds of methods to create turbulence, agitating, agravating,pumping,occilating, you name it.
All I can tell you is that no matter how dirty my clothes are, I can put a large load in most of my top-loaders, dump in some good phosphated detergent such as the old VIVA, walk away and when I come back at the end of the relatively short cycle, those clothes will be clean.

I have my favorites. The 1964 Maytag "Highlander" is truly the most "dependable" in every catagory. When all else fails, that machine will get the load clean no matter what.

The late '60's solid-tub SQ does a great job also. it has an over-flow rinse and is a great water-hog.
I have come to think that the over-flow rinses are really thorough for loads containing greasy soils such as kitchen towels or work schmattes.
The '63 Frigidaire CI "rings the bell" as its over-flow rinse must be five minutes long!

Then there are the Unimatics. Wonderful for summer clothing (no long-sleeves or legs to tangle!) and fabulous extractors!
Hot water is all that goes to my daily-driver Unimatic. They are great washers.The best towel washers ever! What action!

My fairly new (compared to most of my collection) Whirly (a gift from John) belt-drive does a great job on shirts. I like the "Gentile" cycle as a friend of mine calls it, and even on the "Normal" speed, the spin is slow enough as to not set a lot of wrinkles.

I am blessed to have the option of choice.

 

[gansky1]

The overly-presumptive table in the link is just silly. All machines have their good and bad points - that's why there are so many to choose from.

Choice in laundry chores is truly a blessing! There are machines for every laundry task in my basement - towels go in a Unimatic Frigidaire, ground-in soils get a long wash in the WP Duet front-loader, on and on. What would I do if I could have only one washer? Perish the thought!

Vacfanatic - the new LG looks good but where will we put that Maytag A700 now?? Well, I just leave it in your driveway anyway ;-)

 

[fridgiman]

Matt,

I don't know your friend and never even mentioned him. It was a general comment based on my observations on how people wash, from reading the posts on this site and seeing pictures on how a lot of people stuff there machines to the breaking point.
If you like your long wash cycles then so be it.

As far as where I'm getting the 2 hour wash cycle, I'm talking about the European FL's. Also, per Consumer Reports the new American machines are approaching this amount.
All I can say is that I don't want to have to do wash every day to get my weekly laundry done.
And just for interests sake, my daily driver is a Maytag Neptune FL and I love it. Normal cycle is 56 minutes and I get great results.
And I stand by my opinion. 30 mins in a properly operated TL is less wear and tear on clothes than 2 hours in a FL.

 

[hoover1100]

30 mins in a properly operated TL is less wear and tear on c

It's obviously not if you have to put things like shirts and trousers on a more gentle wash.

Not forgetting all the lint that a top loader creates.

Personally I'd find a toploader or US front loader extremely labour intensive compared to what I'm used to. I sort colours, load the machine, add detergent and come back to perfectly clean clothes. Surely all the soaking, pre-treating and use of additives, not to mention having to wash different fabrics in seperate cycles as is necessary with a top loader is far more work than putting a load on and forgetting about it? I thought that was the idea of owning an automatic washer. If I wanted to wash the whole weeks wash in an hour, despite the necessary added work whch would be required to do this, I'd get myself a Hoovermatic.

I'd say this is one of the main reasons top loaders didn't catch on here, they were seen as a lot more labour intensive and less automatic.

Matt

 

[fridgiman]

Matt,

You're comparing apples to oranges. TL's and FL's work differently. That's why you have different speeds on a TL. Turning a knob is not labor intensive.
As far as lint goes, I have never experienced a problem with lint unless I wash a white cotton bath towel with something like a black velour shirt.
A sprits of spray wash is a lot faster than 2+ hours running a machine.

 

[brisnat81]

Coming from a country that does it both ways, and having converted to FL washing in my mid 20's, there seems to be a lot of miss information about.

In Australia, I never had an issue with linting in a TL machine, you sorted whites, colours, sheets, towels and used cold or warm water (20degC 40degC). I beleive that dress shirts frayed around the collars quicker, but wear is a bit subjective. To get whites white, you use oxygen bleach, and soak or use a pre-wash spray. With our small diameter hot water pipes, filling a TL machine with Hot can take 10 minutes or more. Total Cycle of 30-40 minutes or for stains use an overnight soak in the machine and then 30-40 mins.

With a FL washer the AU Miele's used to ship with a default cycle time of 40mins for cottons up to 50degs and then 1.06 for 60degC Plus. You still sort by whites, colours, sheets, towels. I now use Warm and Hot water (40degC 60degC). You add the clothes, and detergent and for normal soil you have clean clothes 40 minutes later. Yes it can take 2hrs but you have to have heavy soil, in which case in a TL machine I would've soaked overnight with Oxygen Bleach. Rinses can be programmed to come up to the bottom of the door glass, and to do 3 of them with high speed spins in between.

Personally I wouldnt go back to a TL machine, anything that gets stains out in 40 mins with no soaking, rubbing or spraying is just easier. The lower water consumption is a bonus.

Yes TL can cause lint if used incorrectly, Yes FL can take 2 hours if programmed to do such, but its usually by choice and not the rule.

I've now got my Miele programmed in Euro mode, with takes 1h20min with 2 rinses or 1hr30mins with 3. I can still do a weeks wash on a saturday morning and have it all line dryed. I set the first load to auto start at 5am and it's ready to hang out when I get up at 6.30. I can churn 6 loads out by early afternoon, I just get on with the housework and shopping in the meantime.

The Argument will never be won, one way or another, both machines do what they do, they just use different ways of achieving it.

 

[favorit]

also frontloaders have different tumble speeds

... and different patterns.
Cottons and perma-press tumble in the range 40--->55 rpm
Mieles machines alternate 5.5 seconds 40rpm (best "rainwash" action : load is sprayed by the baffles) with 5.5 seconds 55rpm (best "lift and drop" action), pause 4 secs, then reverse tumble in the same pattern

Delicates and wool can't stand tumbles and are washed @ lower speeds that only roll the floating load (25--->30rpm). It's a somewhat impeller action.

Just there is no tumble speed selector : each programme works with the proper speed for the related fabric.

And again NOT ALL CYCLES LAST TWO HOURS.
We really do use the 2-hr cycle only with heavily soiled loads (spotted/stained tablecloths, kitchen towels ..)
E.g. wool/handwash, express last only 30 mins

 

[electradeluxe]

i've never known so much effort going into ensuring clean whites and heavy stains treatment before washing them in a top loader,It must cost a fortune to buy chlorine bleach and stain removers aswell as washing powder and softener,a good old hot wash with a measure of Daz or Ariel is enough to keep my whites white in my FL,i read a comment where one says they soak whites and greasy stains for up to 12 hours before washing!
i'd have several loads washed and dried in that time!!!! lol

and as for the "noisy spin cycles" on FL's i've put a wash on before goin to bed before now and with the doors closed haven't heard a peep and been fast asleep when it's completed it's 1200 final spin!!!!

and as for reliability we're on our 3rd washer in the 30 years of my mum running a household,so i reckon front loaders aren't all that bad!!

 

[swestoyz]

Well, I guess someone had to do it...

may as well! 11 years old with TONS of service receipts to boot ;-)

And gasp - a Neptune next to a Unimatic? To think of the 10's of thousands of who bought these machines, still to this day, have no idea if the machine does anything due to not having a window to look through!

I'm with Greg on this one. I'm quite happy to have a choice, are you?

Ben

 

[iheartmaytag]

It must cost a fortune to buy chlorine bleach

Oh contrare.
A gallon of LCB cost me about $1, whereas a small tub of Oxiclean is about $6. It only takes just a smige of bleach to do the job and you are left with a nice clean smell.

 

[hoover1100]

I've soaked many things in chlorine bleach before

A larger dose than recommended, and in hotter water than recommended, and it has not removed a thing, where oxygen bleach took the stain off no problem.

Also we do not generally buy Oxiclean or the equivalent over here, all detergents, with the exception of liquids and "colour safe" powders, contain oxygen bleach already, rendering the adding of extra oxi bleach pointless, unless buying poor quality detergents where it does not contain enough.

Products such as "Vanish" and "Oxiclean" are sold here, but considering their rather extortionate price and the fact they contain nothing which isn't already found in most detergents, simply adding more detergent has the same effect as using them, but is much cheaper.

I still don't get how detergents containing optical brightners and pruducts such as "oxiclean" seem to be marketed as "color safe" in the US, whereas here those are all the things which are removed from a detergent for it to be seen as "Colour safe". I guess the idea is they fade colours less than LCB, but they still fade colours nonetheless.

Matt

 

[hoovermatic]

I didn't realise that Vanish and all those other products contain nothing that isn't already in a good quality detergent? I add a scoop once in a blue moon to filthy whites but that is about it. I thought it was packed with allsorts of other miracle chemicals! Shows how much attention I pay to the packaging!!! It is absurdly overpriced hence my judicious use of it so a small tub lasts about 12 months. Thanks for that information, you may well have put me off buying it, mercifully!