Expert Advice Needed

[Hometechdoc]

Hello fellow appliance gurus. This is my first post; however, I did attend the Omaha Convention and have visited Roberts (Unimatic 1140) in MN. Glad to know so many of you exist. I thought I knew alot about washers until I met some of you.

Let me give you a little background about myself before I get down to business. I direct the Home Technology Laboratory and the Consumer Resource Center at the California State University Northridge. For those of you not familiar with the area, Northridge is in Northern Los Angles in the San Fernando Valley – think earthquake.

I teach courses in consumer law, housing, and household technology. My background is in marketing, family and consumer law, and household technology with degrees in each of these fields. Anyway, I do a great deal of consulting for the appliance industry. I primarily work in residential energy management, product evaluation, and consumer marketing - particularly marketing to high-end consumers. I am often utilized by various entities as an expert witness in cases involving appliances or kitchens. This is the purpose for this post.

I have been called upon to work on a very interesting case and thought I would ask some of you to assist. The background of the case follows. A homeowner (wealthy condo dweller on the Miracle Mile of Wilshire Blvd) left her front loading washer (American brand of European design) running while she left. There was a mechanical failure of some sort and the inlet water did not shut off. The result is water and other damages claimed in excess of $500,000. Four million dollar plus units were affected. As you can imagine in our southern California litigious society there have been multiple lawsuits filed. I have been asked to witness for one of the defendants.

My question that I am looking for a response to is.

“Is it reasonable to assume that you can leave your automatic clothes washer to operate unattended?

I am looking to compile your responses as part of my testimony. No ones identity will be revealed without their permission. Initial depositions do not require that level of specifics and it will be determined at that time what testimony will be admitted as evidence. It is conceivable that some of the attorneys might want to talk with specific respondents and it is possible that some of you might be called upon to give testimony, as well. It is also possible that opposing sides may want to use you as an expert.

This post is intentionally vague, but I would like to hear your thoughts. Feel free to ask any questions for more specifics.

Allen Martin, Ph.D.
HomeTechDoc

 

[jaxsunst]

Yes and no. Yes, you can assume you can turn the machine on and walk away. No, because mechanical failures do happen, if you leave while it is running and the machines fails and you are not home to catch before damage is done, that is your fault.

I would assume if you leave with it running, and it causes damage, you would have a homeowners insurance claim and no reason to sue the manufacturer of the washer.

 

[foraloysius]

Hi Allen,

Yes, I remember you from the convention. I assume this is a rather new machine? Since we are talking European design here, perhaps it is good to tell that overhere in Europe quite a lot of people are used to starting the washer and then leave for work or so. I do that very often too. Ofcourse sometimes accidents happen, but until now I haven't heard of advices not to turn on the washer when you leave the house. One of the reasons to start the washer when you leave for work are the longer cycles of the European machines. I assume the washer we are talking about also has long cycles?

Just out of curiosity, are we talking about a Kenmore HE or Whirlpool Duet here? I don't know if it's possible to give that kind of information.

If you want to know more, just ask!

Louis

 

[hoovermatic]

Given that automatic washing machines have been around for so long and people have been turning on their machines and leaving the home to go to work/shopping/ collecting kids from school, I would say that it is most definately reasonable to assume that you can leave the machine unattended. At the end of the day, this is one of the reasons that people buy them, they are automatic and require no intervention by the user. You could turn the machine on and go upstairs and it could flood and you wouldn't necessarily be aware of it until you went to the laubdry room/kitchen/wherever.

No one can contend that you should remain in the room or pop back every five minutes to check if it's alright? Perhaps if they saw a way to get rich through litigation they would. I wonder if they sit with their machine, perhaps with a nice book?

 

[tlee618]

Hi Allen, Good to see you posting. It was great to meet you at the convention. I have to agree with others, it would seem that we could assume that we could leave our homes with the washer running. Would I do so, probably not. First because it is to much fun to watch but then I know that most out there couldn't understand that.LOL I have almost never started either the washer or dryer and left home. My units are 20 years old so that would also play on my mind. I assume that these units you are talking about are rather new? I think it all boils down to the fact that this was an accident. Isn't that what we have insurance for? I also feel that the appliance company would need to shoulder part of this expense if the units were indeed new. There is a fine line to all of this. Please do keep us posted as to the progress. Terry

 

[Hometechdoc]

respons to orginal pos

Since the manufacturer of the machine is one of the litigants in at least one of the cases, I can not disclose the manufacturers name. However, it is not to difficult to figure out.

Yes, water damage is usually covered by most insurance policies such as an HO-2 Named perils policy, which covers 18 listed perils. It is available and somewhat common in some parts of the country to have an HO-1 policy that only includes 11 namce perils of which water leakage from plumbing devices is not covered.

This being a condo, there is an HO-6 policy which covers the 18 listed perils.

One of the lawsuits is originating from the insurance carrier

 

[chachp]

I run my washer and dishwasher regularly when I am not home. I purposely selected a dishwasher with a delay feature and a washer with a clock for this purpose. My washer can take upwards of 1 1/2 hours to run through a high temp wash so I regularly set the timer and go to work. It starts itself in time to just finish as I come in the door at the end of the day. I also put clothes in before I go to bed and set the machine to finish about the time I plan to get up.

I might start the dryer and leave but typically I don't because I want to be there when the cycle finishes so I can hang the clothes. I am not a fan of ironing LOL!

So, yes, I would assume the reason these appliances have these features is to be run unattended. Now I suppose someone out there will come up with some definition of unattended that means somewhere within eyesight of the machine. Well if that's the case, then what's the point of having or paying for the feature?

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Allen, nice to hear from you again. I never, ever leave any appliance with the exception of the refrigerator operating when I leave the house. I've seen a few of my machines fill and start to agitate and keep filling because of water valve failures. I've always been there to catch it before it did any damage to the machine or worse yet the house.

I have had arguments with my spouse over this, sometimes he wants to leave the house for dinner or other reasons and I refuse to go because I know what can happen. While an accident of these sorts is extremely rare, it can and does happen. Waiting another 15 minutes or stopping the machine in mid-cycle certainly isn't a big deal compared to the damage a malfunctioning water or heat using appliance can cause. The Washer/Dryer/Dishwasher/Range are all appliances that must be completely off, with exception of their fluorescent panel lights when I leave the house, even for just a 1/2 hour.

 

[spiraclean]

Hi Robert,
I totally agree with you, I personally would never go out of the house and leave any washer or dryer running. I have seen machines over fill before and I am sure if no one was at home the damage this could cause would be extensive. I have also seen tub drain hoses holed by articles left in pockets and on one occasion this damage was caused by the u shaped metal from an under wire bra.
Better safe than sorry.

All the best.
Hugh

 

[peterh770]

Hey Allen! Good to see you posting. Great talking with you in Omaha.

Yes, it is completely resonable. Take dishwashers, for instance. Many of them have a delayed start option to take advantage of lower utility rates during off peak hours, most notably at night. A dishwasher could easily fail while the homeowners are at home and asleep, causing just as much damage before the owner wakes. Ovens have a delayed start, so that items can begin cooking while the homeowner is still at work. How many crock-pot/slow cookers work all day unattended and don't burn the house down? Robert already mentioned refrigerators. Dehumidifiers, air conditioning, heating, water heaters. Even telephones with those little transformers on the end that tend to get quite toasty. Totally reasonable.

There are thousands of unattended coin laundries out there. Thousands of washers and dryers running with no one watching them. Big equipment, lots of water, lots of gas, lots of electric, big heavy things with lots of motion momentum. Unattended. I myself have 107 of them right now. Perfectly reasonable.

All modern appliances have enough built in protectors to reasonably allow them to operate unattended. "Unattended" may be defined as "without the owner's attention at all". Damage may occur, albiet much less, even with an inattentive homeowner at home.

"Unattended" is too nebulous a term. No one is at my house right not watching that everything plugged in at home doesn't fail. There aren't enough hours in the day!

However, in cases like this, the cause of the failure must be identified. "Inlet water valve did not shut off." Why? Which safety feature, if any, failed? Bad water valve or connections, bad water level control or connections, bad timer, bad electrical connections, etc. I guess it is the washer geek in me that wants to know this, but in the answer to this question is where the basis of the lawsuit ultimately lies. If I were a judge, I would want to know if this was a fluke accident, a manufacturing defect, or something they knew would fail,a nd I would throw out the "unattended" part as frivilous.

 

[peterh770]

Oh and I would be remiss without saying this:

What a great topic for the Super forum!

 

[DADoES]

The short answer from me is: Yes.

The long answer is: Yes, but with understanding of potential risk.

I think, that being it is an automatic washer, the consumer expects that the machine can be started and left running unattended to finish processing the washload, and that there are reasonable safeguards in the mechanical/electrical design to protect against malfunctions -- IE an overheated motor or an off-balance spin. However, the consumer must also understand there is an inherent risk of unforseen malfunction that is beyond the machine's ability to control, such as a sudden gross failure or destruction of the machine's water pump ... or water inlet valve ... that could result in a flood condition.

I don't profess to know anything about the law, but with the above being said, my intuition / gut feeling is that if I accept the risks of running an appliance unattended and something goes wrong that results in property damage, the manufacturer is not at fault. Unless there is evidence of manufacturer defect that faciliated the failure. One failed water valve is bad luck and does not a lawsuit make.

I had a situation some years ago in which the fill tube in one of my toilet tanks split in such a way that water was spraying full-force up against the tank lid and spewing out on the adjacent bathroom wall. It happened just minutes before I was leaving for work. A few minutes later and it would have been a terrible disaster, I wouldn't have been back for at least 12 hours. Did I sue the toilet and valve manufacturer? Of course not! It was an accident. Do I shut off all my toilets now when leaving the house? Nope.

 

[fnelson487]

I Suppose It Depends On Where The Machine Is

I know contractors who will not install a clothes washer on on upper floor without putting a drain pan under it. If the machine is in the basement and near a drain or on a drain pan plumbed to the house drain on an upper floor, a catastrophe could be avoided. I don't think it is unreasonable to leave the house when a machine is running, but if something happens you pay the price. This also goes for a hose break when you haven't turned off the water valves when wash-day is done. Recommended by most and done by few (including me I am ashamed to say).

I know that area of LA (I lived in Encino for 21 years). I would venture to guess that someone is going to pay. It will be interesting to see how it comes out.

 

[pumper]

I have a delayed start on my front loader & my dishwasher but I have never and would never use them, and I certainly would never leave home with my dryer running. I may be overly cautious, but I think you have to be especially when you live in a condo type setting where your decisions could impact the other tenants. Insurance looks good on paper, but see what happens after you make a claim. Either your premium will shoot up or you will be cancelled, and that claim will follow you for years. Like the others, I like to pull up a pillow and plop down in front of my washer as though I were watching TV, but I often do other things around the house, as you can usually hear water overflowing or smell smoke and can stop the machine before causing major damage. Like I said, I may be overly cautious, but then I have a big dog house in my back yard to deter burglars, even though I don't own a dog!

 

[veg-o-matic]

I think the instructions that came with my FL Frigidaire say not to leave the house with the machine running. I know for a fact that my condo association C&R say not to leave the washer, dryer, or dishwasher running if you're not at home.

Which is not to say that I've never done it...

veg

 

[Hometechdoc]

keep it coming

You guys are giveng me exactly what I need. Keep the thoughts coming. I need as many arguments for and against leaving the machines unattended.

 

[westtexman]

I agree with Glenn....

As an automatic washing machine is "automatic", one could reasonably expect that you should NOT have to "baby-sit" the washing machine while it is in use.

That said, it is not a good idea to leave ANY machine (other than refrigerator, heater, water heater) on while you are not at home. For years my parents have taught me NOT to leave the dryer running while I am not at home. The same with the stove, blender, mixer, washing machine, dishwasher, etc.

Although a washing machine is "automatic", there ia always room for malfunction. I personally own a "European Style" front-loader with a STRONG internal water heater. Although I have been tempted to leave it one while I am not home due to the long cycle times, I have made a point NOT to do so. This is for several reasons:

1. There are mechanical parts moving by electricity, which can overheat and cause fire.
2. Since my washer has a heating element to heat the water (up to 200*F, I might add), it is certainly not smart to leave it on while one is away due to possibility of fire.
3. When dealing with water, there is ALWAYS a possibility of flood. Especially when you are dealing with an appliance that turns the water off and on automatically.

Using "European-style" washing machines is a fairly new concept in the United States. As a result, many do not know how to use them properly. I'm not saying that is was user error that caused the flood, but I wonder if she would have been as inclined to sue Whirlpool or Maytag if she had TL machine that did the same thing?

Just some points to consider....

Tex

P.S. The instruction manual for my washing machine clearly says that the water valves should be turned off when the machine is not in use. Obviously for that much damage to occur, the machine had to have been left for qutie a while for it to flood 4 condos. If she turned the machine on at 7:00 am when she left for work, and let's say the machine had a 2 - 2 1/2 hour cycle time, more than likely the machine was not in use for several hours while the valves were still on. Not that I turn off my valves when I leave the house, but if I have a flood, I sure won't be suing the washing machine manufacturer for my own ignorance.

 

[geoffdelp]

I personally do not leave my automatic washer operating if I am not at home and "try" to remember to turn off the water valves after use.

HOWEVER ... I don't believe I have ever read anything in the manuals of my automatic washers about leaving them unattended. In fact, I have read a couple of manuals that have stated the great thing about their machines was the operator's ability to do other tasks while the washer was operating. The machines would even turn themselves off if the load became unbalanced.

Every manual I've seen does indicate to close the water valves after use.

Sounds like this case is going to be "splitting hairs".

Geoff

 

[petek]

I always remain in the house or yard when the washer/dryer/dishwasher are running. I don't do periodic checkups either but if something went awry I'm sure I'd notice it soon enough, certainly a lot quicker than if I'd been away at work or elsewhere. Also I know that if the washer/dryer leak or overfill that there is a floor drain close by. That being said I know that many people do regardless of any warnings highlited in the owners manual advising against it and that is a big gray area in my mind.
Does the owners manual specifically state not to leave the machine unattended?
Does the manufacturer warn that the machine is to be installed in a location with proper drainage?
Does the manufacturer offer other white goods with "delay" features.
Does the manufacturer allude to in their advertising or sales personell that the appliance is "care free" or similar things such as "set it and forget it"

PK