Finish goes Phosphate-Free
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dj-gabriele
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Oh my!
I hope that change will only affect the American version of Finish!
The only phosphate free detergent I used for the dishwasher was Unilever's Svelto and it was pure cr*p!
Anyway, just to be sure I checked the packets I bought last time and they're still at least 6% of phosphorus!
I hope that change will only affect the American version of Finish!
The only phosphate free detergent I used for the dishwasher was Unilever's Svelto and it was pure cr*p!
Anyway, just to be sure I checked the packets I bought last time and they're still at least 6% of phosphorus!
spoodles
Well-known member
So what do you get as a substitute ingredient for phosphates then? Seeing as phosphates are a major ingredient in UK dishwasher detergent, how can they be substituted?
Here's a photo of the ingredients for UK Finish Quantum tablets, how does it compare to the US version?
Here's a photo of the ingredients for UK Finish Quantum tablets, how does it compare to the US version?
I can see it now, we're all going to be having our European members buying and shipping to us their phosphated dishwasher detergents. The new AW.ORG black market and contraban.
30% - that seems high, I've been mixing it at about 12-18%. We have soft water and I've found any higher concentration produces some foam in the wash and slows down the action considerably. Perhaps I pre-rinse too much? ;-)
The last time we went to buy phosphates - STPP in a quantity, the price had doubled. That was a year ago and a 50 pound bag had jumped to a little more than $100. 50lbs will last for a very long time when doled out in teaspoon size "servings" though. I gave a taste out to some family members at Thanksgiving so now that they're addicted, my consumption will likely increase in the next year or so. I'm sure I'm going to get calls on the dishwasher troubles, I may have to start packaging and selling it - I don't think it's banned in NE, yet.
The removal of phosphates is really going to case a mess for many people if my mother notices the difference almost immediately with softened water and very-pre-rinsed dishwasher loads. Yuk!
The last time we went to buy phosphates - STPP in a quantity, the price had doubled. That was a year ago and a 50 pound bag had jumped to a little more than $100. 50lbs will last for a very long time when doled out in teaspoon size "servings" though. I gave a taste out to some family members at Thanksgiving so now that they're addicted, my consumption will likely increase in the next year or so. I'm sure I'm going to get calls on the dishwasher troubles, I may have to start packaging and selling it - I don't think it's banned in NE, yet.
The removal of phosphates is really going to case a mess for many people if my mother notices the difference almost immediately with softened water and very-pre-rinsed dishwasher loads. Yuk!
dj-gabriele
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Pre-rinsing? No thanks, what's the point of having a dishwasher then? Anyway, should you need some European detergents, I'm up for the black market, just ask!
Last time I did the calculations, 33% STPP by weight works out to about 8% phosphorus by weight, which is a typical amount for a factory phosphated dishwasher detergent.
Hard Water
in much of Europe has a very different meaning than what the lucky Americans consider to be 'hard'.
In Munich, for instance, water hardness varies enormously, depending on the source of water in any given part of the city. Where I live, we are off the bad end of the scale.
Phospates are no problem for water treatment plants which are designed to recover them. I just plain don't understand the hysteria. In 1970, yes. In 2010, no.
The bio-, eco- and 'organic' dishwasher detergents I have tried over the last 25 years were universally awful.
Funny, by the way, how pre-rinsing has never really been resolved. I don't pre-rinse anything - you end up using more water and energy than the dishwasher would in two cycles - but my brothers washes the dishes in soap first before loading the dishwasher.
in much of Europe has a very different meaning than what the lucky Americans consider to be 'hard'.
In Munich, for instance, water hardness varies enormously, depending on the source of water in any given part of the city. Where I live, we are off the bad end of the scale.
Phospates are no problem for water treatment plants which are designed to recover them. I just plain don't understand the hysteria. In 1970, yes. In 2010, no.
The bio-, eco- and 'organic' dishwasher detergents I have tried over the last 25 years were universally awful.
Funny, by the way, how pre-rinsing has never really been resolved. I don't pre-rinse anything - you end up using more water and energy than the dishwasher would in two cycles - but my brothers washes the dishes in soap first before loading the dishwasher.
bobbyderegis
Well-known member
Just guessing, but they must be changing over in New England also. My store brands are now suddenly phosphate-free. I stocked up. Does Chemistry store sell smaller quantities than 50 lbs.?
Bobby in Boston
Bobby in Boston
toggleswitch2
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Bobby:
12 lbs IIRC.
12 lbs IIRC.
bobbyderegis
Well-known member
Tks Steve!
Bobby in Boston
Bobby in Boston
Someone one does worry how long consumers will be allowed to get their hands on STPP. I mean what is the point of removing a substance from consumer products, if those same persons go out and add it right back.
Regarding the query regarding storage of STPP, am currently using vintage boxes of "Calgon" which is made with two types of phosphates, and it still flows freely and to my tests/knowledge (pH testing,etc) it has not broken down into TSP. Boxes are silver in colour.
Suppose one could order STPP in huge sealed poly sacks, or store in air tight containers, and it should last quite awhile. Air, moisture and IIRC, heat will degrade the product, so need to be avoided.
Only problem is that one really requires so little STPP by volume in ratio to detergent, that it could take ages to go through anything >25lbs.
Regarding the query regarding storage of STPP, am currently using vintage boxes of "Calgon" which is made with two types of phosphates, and it still flows freely and to my tests/knowledge (pH testing,etc) it has not broken down into TSP. Boxes are silver in colour.
Suppose one could order STPP in huge sealed poly sacks, or store in air tight containers, and it should last quite awhile. Air, moisture and IIRC, heat will degrade the product, so need to be avoided.
Only problem is that one really requires so little STPP by volume in ratio to detergent, that it could take ages to go through anything >25lbs.
Laundress:
SHHHHHH! Don't let the eco freaks hear us!
;-)
No, really, in arid states, phosphates are not banned so it's perfectly legal to use them in home laundry etc. But of course national brands tend to go without so it's a problem if one hasn't a secret stash. Well, not so secret stash.
I bought a number of 50 lb sacks of the stuff 10 years ago when I discovered how great it was in the wash. They are stored in the original sacks, inside waterproof plastic bins. So far I haven't noticed any degradation of the stuff, even though it's not in a climate controlled storage space. It does stay dry and out of direct heat. I could also periodically test it with some well water to confirm that while washing soda (or TSP) causes a precipitate, the STPP does not.
At the time of my purchases I was concerned that it would be banned here, hence the large quantities. And I wasn't aware that it might be perishible. But I'm fairly confident it won't be banned, and also that my supplier would still sell it to me regardless. And also that my stash is aging gracefully.
SHHHHHH! Don't let the eco freaks hear us!
;-)
No, really, in arid states, phosphates are not banned so it's perfectly legal to use them in home laundry etc. But of course national brands tend to go without so it's a problem if one hasn't a secret stash. Well, not so secret stash.
I bought a number of 50 lb sacks of the stuff 10 years ago when I discovered how great it was in the wash. They are stored in the original sacks, inside waterproof plastic bins. So far I haven't noticed any degradation of the stuff, even though it's not in a climate controlled storage space. It does stay dry and out of direct heat. I could also periodically test it with some well water to confirm that while washing soda (or TSP) causes a precipitate, the STPP does not.
At the time of my purchases I was concerned that it would be banned here, hence the large quantities. And I wasn't aware that it might be perishible. But I'm fairly confident it won't be banned, and also that my supplier would still sell it to me regardless. And also that my stash is aging gracefully.
whirlcool
Well-known member
I see that The Chemistry Store also sells a 5 lb bucket of STTP for $12.90. That size may be more appropriate for some users.
What is the correct dosing of STTP for FL, TL and DW machines?
http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=88696&child=88793
What is the correct dosing of STTP for FL, TL and DW machines?
http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=88696&child=88793
Chemistry Store
Is on rather on the dear side, far as prices go,including their shipping and handling charges. There are local and or other sellers about, but you may have to purchase the stuff in 25lb or 50lb bags. I mean where do you think the Chemistry Store gets their supply? It is simply bulk purchased and repackaged.
Is on rather on the dear side, far as prices go,including their shipping and handling charges. There are local and or other sellers about, but you may have to purchase the stuff in 25lb or 50lb bags. I mean where do you think the Chemistry Store gets their supply? It is simply bulk purchased and repackaged.
Correct Dosing
Think of an LP
33-1/3
Think of an LP
33-1/3
jt1985
New member
Finish w/o Phosphates, front:
jt1985
New member
Finish w/o Phosphates: Back. The reference to it being phosphate-free is listed in "Our Home, Our Planet".
mysteryclock
Well-known member
JT, have you tried them yet?
Our home, our planet
My home and planet contain phosphates!
My home and planet contain phosphates!
