FL vs. TL

[kenmore1978]

FL vs TL

This debate is very much like the gas range vs electric range debate. Ideally, one should have both, since each type has advantages.

 

[toggleswitch]

BRAVO

Well-said.

 

[frigilux]

Ding-Ding-Ding-DIng-Ding-Ding!! Congratulations, Toggleswitch; you entered the 100th post in this thread. (Confetti drops, brass band plays, Toggle blows kisses to the cheering crowd...)

Thanks for doing the rinse experiment, CleanteamofNY! I've always wondered what the results would be.

My 2-cents in the gas vs. electric range debate: Electric is better for boiling huge pots of water or simmering delicate sauces and baking cakes/cookies. Gas is better for stir-frying, sauteeing and I like the gas oven for yeast breads.

One of the main reasons I bought my house was because there were both gas and electric hookups in the kitchen, so I have a range of each type, which has always been a dream of mine. The other tipping point for my house was a heated/air-conditioned attached garage. In Minnesota, this is a lovely benefit this time of year.

 

[toggleswitch]

NOT PC, but GET OVER IT!

...also since I'm not a barbeque fan (ducks and runs)...

[well dearie I cant be the (stereotypical)*woman* in the kithcen and the *man* at the grill simultaneusly now CAN I, (I'm good but not THAT good. LOL).]

I kinda like using my gas broiler. Freshly killed animal under flame.. It's just PRIMAL and NATURAL.

 

[toggleswitch]

simultaneously that S/B ....spell yes, type no.

 

[MrX]

FL action

The tumbling action of a front loader is being slightly misunderstood by some posters here.

The clothes don't actually have to tumble and splash around to be cleaned. There is actually very little to be gained from that mechanical action.

The majority of the cleaning happens because water flows through the clothes' fibers as the drum rotates.

If you imagine the action:

The clothes are tumbled around gently with a pause of 2 to 5 secs between each direction.

The clothes at the bottom of the drum absorb large amounts of water that is heavily laden with "HE" biological detergent. As the machine's drum turns this sollution flows back through the rest of the load washing the fibers and removing dirt.

The clothes don't really need to rub off eachother or be very heavily agitated. The action's almost totally water flow and chemical / enzyme based.

At the end of the wash, the machine spins.
Detergent's are designed to capture the dirt and suspend it in the water rather than on the clothes so the dirt-laden water and detergent are spun mostly extracted from the fabric.

The machine fills with clean cold water which is rapidly absorbed by the clothes as they are relatively dry after the high speed spin.
the clothes are tumbled... water moves through them.

Another high speed spin... water and dirt suspended by detergent are flung out.

... subsequent rinses repeat the process..

Finally, last rinse it dilutes and adds in fabric softner.. this is tumbled through the again very well spun clothes and is fully and evenly absorbed.

Final spin... much longer

and voila your clothes are washed to perfection with practically no harsh mechanical action at all.

A front loader isn't at all like a tumble dryer in terms of action. A dryer with a very large drum will tend to work more effectively as it needs to tumble and expose the fabric to warm air.

A FL washer with a smaller drum can be tightly packed and should still do excellent washes.

A TL on the other hand also relies somewhat on water movement through the clothes but creates this by moving the clothes agressively through large amounts of water rather than moving the water efficiently through the clothes.

The result is more damage to your clothes and more water usage.

The TL rinse is based on dilution of the detergent and soaking the detergent out of the fabric almost rather than actually forcing it out via centrifugal extraction like a front loader.

Bare in mind, when I'm talking about front loaders I'm refering to European machines. There are some large drum US machines that behave a bit more like a TL.

 

[launderess]

Large Loads of Same Items In Front Loaders

Have to agree that TLs are better when one has to launder several of the same sized items. Though my heading stated "large" have found it pretty much works across the board; front loaders need a good size mix of items to function properly.

Normally this is not a problem, but sometimes find myself with 8 or more king sized bed sheets and only a handful of pillowcases. Using the Miele,this would take ages, and still would not have enough small items to balance each load. What to do? Hoovermatic to the rescue! Once a good rythym was established, laundered/spray rinsed all eight sheets in less than one hour. Just to check up on the spray rinse results, popped a few sheets into the Miele and set it for a rinse cycle, water was totally clear.

L.

 

[Designgeek]

RE. rinsing experiment: I've also found that rinse results are highly sensitive to the amount of detergent used. Excess detergent rapidly takes more time & effort & water to rinse out. There does not appear to be an obvious relationship between quantity of clothes, water, and detergent from one machine to the next, so a combination that produces good cleaning in one case without need of excessive rinses, may produce less good cleaning in another case or need more time/effort/water to rinse out in another case.

Re. water movement & agitation: If Mr.X's point is correct, and I believe it is, then it should be possible to get perfectly good washing results in a TL when using the gentle cycle. That is, the gentle cycle moves the water but doesn't move the clothes as much, so it should work as well as the normal or strong cycle, except in cases where some rubbing action is useful for example to get mud or cement or paint out of a shirt or pair of pants. In my experience, this has turned out to be true, and so I use the gentle cycle on TLs with perfectly good results, and my clothes last longer than they should by any reasonable measure. In fact I'm still wearing shirts that are about 10 years old but still look darn close to new aside from a certain amount of fading (i.e. the fabric itself does not show mechanical wear as one might expect from an agitator).

 

[frigilux]

Launderess-- While I've never had 8 bedsheets to wash at once, I wash 10 ex-large, identical bath towels at once in my FL with no real load-balancing issues. Does this problem happen with FL mainly with really large, identically-sized items like sheets?

 

[MrX]

Honstly can't say I ever find load balancing issues with our miele. No matter what I throw in it just gets washes it, I've never really thought about balancing the load.

The only thing you'd need to watch is not mixing very light colours with very dark colours as they can come out a total mess. I think that's perhaps a slightly more serious problem with front loaders due to the longer wash times. i.e. more time for colours to transfer.

I've washed large numbers of sheets all identical sizes and never had any issues with unbalanced loads. In fact, if the machine's "well stuffed" and very full it'll make balancing much a much easier job for the machine's software!

I've found top loaders that I've used in the states tended to go off balance much more easily. Perhaps it's because the machine can't really re-arrange the clothes itself as once the water's gone the agitator can't move them around. Where as a front loader can attempt to rebalance them by tumbling until it gets it right.

 

[MrX]

to add on to that last post

You certainly can't unbalance a hoovermatic. The spinner tub is TINY and usually loaded really tightly.. so the clothes are packed in tight and can't really move anywhere so they're always on centre!

 

[launderess]

It Is Not Just A Balance Issue

But large items of the same size can ball up on themselves which can not only lead to poor laundering, but rinsing as well.

What can happen is soap/suds are trapped in the "ball" of laundry which leads to a strange situation: laundry that rinses clean the first two rinses, then all of a sudden tons of suds come at a final rinse.

Unbalanced Hoovermatics:

Am here to tell you, it is quite possible and some what easy to unbalance a Hoovermatic spinner if one does not load it correctly. The thing will smack about and vibrate something bad if the wash load is unbalanced. Even my copy of the original owner's manual speaks of this and instructs the user to stop the machine and redistribute the load should it occur.

L.

 

[MrX]

That would indicate to me that you just have a poor FL machine. It should do more agressive intermediate spinning to get those suds out early on.

 

[cleanteamofny]

MrX,

Launderess and I have similar washers (Malber), suds finds their way back into the machine and it does not matter what HE or regular detergents is used! I have soft water and rinsing is like glass with a coat of oil, very slippery!

What are we to do?
NYC cold water temp is close to 30-50* so cold water should knock dem suds down to nothing, but no hope, so what are we to do?

 

[toggleswitch]

fareheit

 

[mrcleanjeans]

that depends

modern FLs,as great as they are,and they are,have one very irritating trait.When it's time to spin,they often act like they are temporarily amnesiac,sometimes even skipping the spin altogether(and I'm referring to those that even have any kind of a spin between rinses),or take WAY too long in counterbalancing to get to that point,and could use more water in the tub for washing,and especially rinsing.Yes,I know,I've read the debates on that,but that is how I feel.Give me a vintage top or front loader any day of the week.I don't like my washer to take a millenium to get a load done.

 

[rayjay]

David, I agree with you. I have and LG front loader. Great machine, but takes way too long to balance and to into spin. I used to have a Westinghouse Frontloader bought in 1984. No nonsense, washed, rinsed well, and went right into spin. Even my German Aeg, which is small goes into spin right away.

 

[brisnat81]

Spin balance

My Miele always manages to balance going into the spin. After the drain it starts tumbling and just increases the speed until all items are plastered around the drum.

Even with 1 towel or just sheets, it always just goes into spin straight away.

On a cottons cycle the miele spins between each rinse, so I've never found soap left in the sheets even if they ball up.

If I want to increase the rinses to 4, I lower the spin speed down to 600RPM and immediately get an extra rinse. This means the towels after softer after line drying as well.