Forum Organists: question re Hammonds or other

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petek

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I know there's one or two people on here who play the organ so I'm directing this to them. I also asked Charles on the Vac site. When we moved last fall I gave up my old spinet organ I'd owned for about 30 years always figuring I'll find another one sooner or later here. There's always plenty of lower end Hammonds, Lowreys etc at thrift stores but usually they're wrecks and cheap. However the local ReStore here has a pristine 1975 Hammond Aurora model 8200, fully functioning, I played it, tried everything out. Not a scratch on it. Price would be about $500 USD. Firstly, is this a fair price for one in pristine working and cosmetic condition?
Now the thing is, I only play classical music and never cared for the Hammond a go-go sound very much, fun, but not me. I'm thinking if I get it I'll probably not be happy with it because I want something with a richer pipe organ sound. Who/what to you is a better sounding classical organ staying away from any monsterous Rodgers or Allens? I always like the sound from a Gulbransen. But back to this Hammond, would you jump at it for $500 mint like new?
 
That's definitely an electronic Hammond there, and not a tonewheel. Tonewheel organs usually were designated with a letter dash number combination. For example, the famouse B-3, A100, M100, etc. The letter was the type of organ, and the number was the cabinet style.

I sort of prefer the tonewheel organs, since I favor Jazz and rock music, and this seems to be the desire of the populous now too, as tonewheel Hammonds have a particularly high resale value compared to solid-state instruments. Electronic organs give a little more versaility to the sound, but I sort of think that the electronic organs from most manufacturers sound sort of shallow or tinny, and lack life. The exception to this seems to be Allen organs. That company that has been quite successful over the years in making fully electronic church and other classical organs that emulate pipe organs quite well they were sort of the pioneer in fully electronic organs using tube oscillators. I have also found that some of the earlier Hammond tonewheel organs don't have that bad of a classical sound when they are played with the vibratos, tremulants and other effects switched off.

The type of oscillators in an organ determine it's sound considerably. We begin with the tonewheels which have a jazzy, theater sound, and then several manufacturers began making VCO (voltage controlled oscillator) style analogue organs and synthesizers. These started off as tubes, and went solid state in the late 60's. Tube oscillator organs were persnicikity and didn't like to stay tuned up. There were advertising wars between Lowery and Hammond during this time over whose technology was better. Hammonds were mechanical, and Lowery reps liked to put oil spots on the floor under Hammonds to make them look inferior. Hammond salesmen used to love to feed Lowery's low voltages using an autotransformer to make the electronic oscillators drift out of tune to prove that their tonewheel system was more accurate in tonality. Solid state technology got rid of the frequency drift issues that electronic tube organs had and actually made them practical for home use. Solid state organs are more versatile because they have more waveforms avaliable than a tonewheel (square, triange, sawtooth equivalent to flues and reeds), but if the player is not skillful in blending the stops, can end up more with a shallow sound like heard in the doors "Light my Fire" or Smashmouth's "Walking on the Sun". Electronic organs do not sound good with straight fundamental tones when played with classical music (although this effect is desired in some rock music)

As we got into the eighties F.M synthesis (frequency modulated) which is an early form of digital oscillation came into being. This shrunk organs considerably, and made them small enough to fit on a tabletop. The era of the full-size home organ was pretty much over after this, as portable keyboards from Casio, Yamaha, and the like became popular for home use over them. FM synthesis keyboards and organs had good sound, as the possibalities of different waveforms was virtually endless. These organs became popular too because they had rhythm sections in them too. The drawback to these is the lack of polyphony (how many keys you can play at the same time together) because of a change in architecture. These organs can be found cheaply in both console and tabletop models from mostly Japanese makers. They sound fairly good for classical style playing, but if your "performances' involve lots of stops, with lots of chords, you could run out of oscillators quickly! The Yamaha DX7, a synth, not an organ, was one of the most popular FM synthesis instruments of the eighties, and can be heard in LOTS of eighties pop and rock music from that time.

In the early 90's sampling digital keyboards came into being. These actually created a slight market for full-size organ consoles again, as each one of a pipe organ's pipes could be electronically recorded (Sampled), stored in the instrument electronically, and then played back as the organist plays the indivdual keys corresponding to the pipes. The sounds would be mathematically blended in microprocessors. These sampling organs have an excellent sound, give the versatility and character of a real pipe organ, without the compromise in sound that you get with an electronic organ. They started out quite expensive, as the memory to store all the sounds was not cheap, but have not become relatively reasonable as memory prices have fallen. Still, finding one of these on the used market is a challenge, as they are still new enough to commmand a premium, and there has not been any new technology supplanting it yet.

As far as what you can find at a thrift store? Well, occasionally, Allen organs will show up at thrift stores, yard sales, and even secondhand at churches. Allen organs are electronic, but they have always tried to stick as closely to a classical organ sound as possible, and are a great find for your style of music. Hammonds and Loweries tend to lean more towards a theater/jazz/rock sound. Plus, don't be afraid of the size of Allens, as Allens have been made in anything from small spinet home organs all the way up to full-size classical consoles. Rodgers, OTOH, has only made the larger consoles, and they are a little bit harder to find anyways.
 
Allen Organs

I could not agree more. Allen probably has the truest pipe sound of any of the digital organs today. If the organ is voiced properly for the room you can have a hard time telling there are not real pipes included.

Rogers and Johannus both have good organs as well, but they don't have it down to true voiceing. They generally allow the organist the ability to change volume of stops, change the overall volume of the organ, thus changing sound totally, which in my opinion gives it the sound of an electronic organ. Allen has one of the better speaker systems allowing you to hear all stops independently of one another.

Just my two cents
 
Hammonds or others...

Hi there

I'm another organist, but must admit to being a bit of a pipe addict rather than an electronic fan. That said, I love the sounds of Hammond tonewheel organs for rock and jazz, and admit that electronics are handy for home practice.

The Aurora is an entirely electronic organ, rather than a tonewheelmodle like the B3/C3, so the tone is rather different to the classic rock/jazz sounds we associate with the Hammond (and Leslie speaker). For classical music I'd suggest looking at something like an earlier Allen or Rodgers or perhaps better still, if you can find a good one, a Conn. To my mind the sound of the pre-digital US organs (Conn, Allen or Rodgers) was far easier on the ear than the sound of analogue Johannus or Viscount organs commonly found in Europe. You should be able to a find a good example from the 60s/70s for relatively little, though the Conn models with pipe-speakers tend to attract a premium.

Gulbransen organs did sound great, but not all that different from the other makers....
 
Hammonds or others...

Hi there

I'm another organist, but must admit to being a bit of a pipe addict rather than an electronic fan. That said, I love the sounds of Hammond tonewheel organs for rock and jazz, and admit that electronics are handy for home practice.

The Aurora is an entirely electronic organ, rather than a tonewheel model like the B3/C3, so the tone is rather different to the classic rock/jazz sounds we associate with the Hammond (and Leslie speaker). For classical music I'd suggest looking at something like an earlier Allen or Rodgers or perhaps better still, if you can find a good one, a Conn. To my mind the sound of the pre-digital US organs (Conn, Allen or Rodgers) was far easier on the ear than the sound of analogue Johannus or Viscount organs commonly found in Europe. You should be able to a find a good example from the 60s/70s for relatively little, though the Conn models with pipe-speakers tend to attract a premium.

Gulbransen organs did sound great, but not all that different from the other makers....
 
One of the houses we looked at and almost put in an offer for last fall had a Conn organ down in the musty old basement rek room. I changed my mind on the house, it eventually sold months later and I wonder what ever happened to that organ, they were an elderly couple moving to a condo and had a nice piano upstairs. Conn isn't a brand I've ever seen around much. It was like the house I looked at where the owners had a beautiful old Kenmore vac in the basement, I didn't feel like I could ask them to sell me their vac but I didn't want their house LOL
 
Hi there,
So nice to hear someone talk about their music side here! I just knew that there were musicians here!
You guys are blowing my mind about the organ talk. I did train, and had to on Pipe Organs when I was working on my Master Degree in Piano. I played on so may wonderful Pipe Organs! They however always put me in my place, and was glad they forced me to learn. I love to hear a wonderful Pipe Organ, and like anything else in this world, the older the better. I could sit an listen for hours. Play however, I did that, and went on, I did not have this talent.
Since we are talking about sound, I wanted to share a 7'4" Kawai that I got last week. I bought it from the original owner and she was a wonderful pianist with a Doctorate degree, and taught at a very great college here in Atlanta. She bought it new in 1967, and did what a pianist would do to keep it up. I have been home for 5 days now, and can't leave it. It is the most wonderful sounding piano that I have ever played. It is a Kawai 750. I might call in sick again tomorrow.
So in short of the talk about instruments for the performers, it is so important to have something that you love, and can learn on, or you will get tired of it very fast, and not want to practice.
Great Thread!
Brent

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The picture did not post the first time.
On this note, show your instruments that you play!
Fun.
We can get together an Vintage Appliance Band, or something like that!
Brent

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Another Shot.
I would love to hear more from more creative musical brains. I truly think the timing for music, and the timers of machines are all what attracted us to washers and such from the beginning.
Fun right?
Thanks for sharing.
Brent

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Wow Brent, very nice indeed and you have room for it. I wished I could say I was an accomplished player but I'm not that good. I took piano only to Gr 6 level and probably started a bit late. I hated the practicing LOL but I'm glad I took some anyways because even though I didn't go further it got me enough that I can at least play somewhat. Now that I'm basically retired it might be time to get into it some more. I mentioned to my other half once we'd moved into this house that a grand would look nice in the livingroom, that went over like a lead balloon as expected, ha. I'm also very fond of harpsichord music though I don't listen to it very often, the portions in the Brandenburg Concerto's I can listen to over and over and never get tired of it.
 
Speaking of classical organ and piano music if not all classical (European) music. I've never in all my now 50+ years really found anyone in any circle of friends or aquaintances who have any whatsoever appreciation or like of it. Not one single solitary person. I find that strange because as we all know there are 10's of thousands of people who love it and you see them packing concerts, recitals etc. and not all of them are there just for appearances sake LOL. Everyone I know screws their face up at the first note of any classical music saying they can't stand it including the one I live with. LOL
BTW I'm listening to Handels Organ Concerto op 4 No. 1 in G minor as I type this.. one of my alltime favorites because it's happy and light.
 
Thanks Pete for your kind words, and your insight. I do have the room, kind of. There will be an addition to the house that will have piano's and such. Yep, I am collecting musical instruments like vintage machines that I have in the past. Oh boy!
As for as you not finding people interested in Classical Music of any form, it is where the world is at, at this point. I think this is gimmie, gimmie world, and the majority stops to use brain power to learn, and develop the brain power needed to enjoy this type of music. Aren't you glad you did? It is beyond anything now, or anything that will ever come. I only think that Heaven will be a place to have such music and sounds in the future.
When you think of instruments from at whole that were invented by, and crafted by man. And then another group of men / women decided to write music for these instruments. And yet another decided to develop and craft the technic needed to carry this beautiful music out, it was amazing for the time period in the world.
It is so amazing to me that this was a time that there was not cable televison, not to mention electricity, or even inside plumbing. Heating or.....you get the picture. They used their brains!!!! Makes you wonder if the life we live is all that great as far as developing our minds. I could talk forever on this.
I am glad that you do enjoy classical music! It is brain power! Keep it up! Get you a nice upright piano if you think that you would like to learn again. It is a great hobby, and good for your brain, and soul.
Brent
 
Well you hit the nail on the head because that's exactly what I was going to say next. Often when I'm laying on the couch eyes closed listening to a complicated concerto or such I try and imagine how on earth a person back then under those conditions could even concieve such music in their head, put it to paper when their hands were freezing, using a quill and ink lit only by a candle or oil lamp. The movie Amadeus came close but even that was glossy and so overlit, no rooms on earth at that time regarless how palatial with all those candles were ever that bright and that's not even considering where the composer actually worked when he wrote them, certainly not like that at all times. What I figure it must have been is the absence of distraction which began to disappear from the the world during the industrial revolution or something along those lines because imho there has never been much put out there that will ever compare since with relatively few exceptions up until the early 1900's and nothing since then in that genre
 
The reason I think why most people shun classical music is because they associate it with "muzak" background music heard in elevators and stores and such. Most have not listened to "real" classical music to enjoy it's amazing dynamics. As a whole, today, most people don't even sit down and intently listen to music anymore anyways. Music to most is simply background noise that is turned on when things get too quiet....something I have never been able to understand myself. I like the sound of silence every so often, and I usually cannot stand a lot of chaos and distraction, which is usually what occurs when someone ties to play music while I'm concentrating on a task. Instead, I prefer to sit down in front of my HiFi system, crank it up and listen intently to the music with nothing else distracting me.

The sales of stereo HiFi equipment really reflects this lately too. Home theater systems primarily designed to reproduce the soundtrack of movies and video media has basically taken over. Audiophile sound systems truly designed for listening to music are few and far between nowadays. Most high-end stereo shops now sell TV systems too, and they really don't concentrate on audiophile HiFi systems. The systems that are out there are too expensive for the average person to afford. The ones that are are more of the "ghetto blaster" variety, and seriously lack tonal quality. They are more of a party spectacle with all their flashing lights and exaggerated bass.
 
First off, I am more into vintage soft rock and some dance music, I play a Roland XP-80. I do some composing, when I have the time. The XP-80 does just about anything I ask and I have it maxed out with additional expansion boards (Strings, Pianos, Techno and Session. Steven, that was a very good overview you gave about sampling and FM Synthesis!
All thru high school and college I was always part of a band. A very enjoyable past time...
You are so right about music today. I think most electronics manufacturers gave up the ghost on stereo and began shifting their R&D dollars to "home theater" in the late 80's early 90's. I have a variety of vintage equipment from SAE Amps to JBL 4311 Control Monitors and a set of perfectly restored AR-3a speakers.
Most electronic gear these days is disposable, and it sounds like it too. I think that with the current listening public, if they can hear some noise coming out of the system, then it's adequate. I actually love listening to the different nuances in the sound.

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Large Pipe Organs

At church we have the second largest pipe organ in the state of Texas, a Rodgers built in 1987 with over 10,000 pipes! The blower room is huge!
I always wanted to play it, but the organist is quite possessive about anyone even looking at it the wrong way! The sound is impressive to say the least! And coupled with a large orchestra, the music is, shall I say, heavenly?
The church also had a I think it was a 12' Steinway concert grand, but it disappeared about a year ago and was replaced with a Yamaha Clavinova.
 
Back in Calgary they had the largest pipe organ in Canada and one of the largest in N.America, a beautiful Cassavants Frere. Things was the city itself isn't how do you say very cultural so and prides itself on being western cowboy LOL. A short number of years ago they began an international organ festival to highlight the organ and the newly built hall housing it. The finals are held every 5 years while intermediate to runners up competitions are held inbetween in the US, Europe and Asia to pick the final competitors. It's big doings now with recording contracts and the largest cash prizes available. It also attracts many of the worlds premiere organists to town for concerts and judging. Plus during the summer each Tuesday is take your lunch day when anyone can come into the hall between noon and 1pm, sit and eat their lunch while some renowned organist gives a free concert. People are encouraged to go, eat their lunch,told not to worry about making noise with their lunch bags or pop cans opening etc. It's really quite something and dispels the fear some people might have of going to an "organ concert" and having to be all dressed up, having to sit there bolt upright and be quiet even if you don't like it. Well with this you can just munch away and get up and leave if you want. It draws quite a crowd of office workers who are otherwise just walking by
 
Oh and right down the hallway from the foyer of the organ hall is one of the few remaining Otis attendent elevators with the sliding cage doors, that's a draw just in itself I think.. LOL
 

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