Front loader spin protocol

[stricklybojack]

.
Is it too far a leap to say for all intents and purposes the best FL machine is the one with the best computer/programming?

And then to simply accept the fact that the machine is built to last around 10 years but not to worry as tech will have improved enough by such time as to make it's replacement essentially appropriate anyway?

When I was looking to buy a new set 2 years ago and started a thread here in which I posted updates on my search, and one of our German members made this very argument...don't worry about decades long longevity as that is no longer the big issue, "future proofing" is. And that is best done targeting a date approx a decade hence. Hanging onto the machine significantly later being counter productive as the wash technology of that future time will by then have advanced enough to more than justify the replacement/upgrading.[this post was last edited: 2/20/2017-13:03]

 

[ea56]

Rich

I'm happy for you that your LG with True Balance works so well! My LG that was purchased in 2015 was supposed to have True Balance too, but alas my experience wasn't the same as your's, at least with most loads. But with large, single item loads like comforters and bedspreads it sailed thru the cycle without hesitation. And the only cycle that ever finished quickly was the Speed Wash, the next fastest was Bulky with a single item about 55-60 mins., all others took at least 90 to 120 mins and sometimes even more, and this was without any extra rinses or options other than Water Plus, which was essential to use. Otherwise, it would tumble at the beginning of the wash portion for several mins, with every thing looking dry, especially if I selected heavy soil level, which I gave up on right away. On heavy soil level it would, and I kid you not, tumble for 30 mins. with everything almost completely dry. How was anything supposed to get clean that way? But normal soil level eventually got fairly saturated with
Water Plus option, and the clothes did get clean, but just took too long for me. Maybe there was something wrong with mine? Anyway, its a moot point now because I got rid of it.

And I am in no way trying to say that you are wrong! Your experience just doesn't match mine.
Eddie[this post was last edited: 2/20/2017-13:02]

 

[rp2813]

It wouldn't be so annoying if, during the futile balancing act, I could pause the machine and get in there to do my own re-distribution.  Unfortunately, my Affinity keeps the door locked for something like three minutes after hitting the pause button.  Sorry, but I'd rather let it keep trying during those three minutes than wait there while it does nothing. 

 

I really don't understand the logic.  If the basket has stopped moving, unlock the goddamned door then!

 

[earthling177]

Ralph,

Sadly, it is my impression that wax motors are somehow cheaper or break less than a solenoid. I appreciate that some machines have a solenoid that seems to unlock pretty quickly. Pity that I don't like some of the machines for other reasons.

As for the long routine to balance, I still think it's because the manufacturers are making cheap machines. A true sensor system to verify that the drum is not banging the cabinet or moving dangerously is not that expensive anymore, it's a pity that manufacturers keep using the motor to sense the unbalance.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.

 

[henene4]

Not teribly expensive

But, it costs. Something is still more then nothing. The way engeneers have to think.

Some machines (especially ELux) used to use bimetalic door locks on lower end models. A bimetalic strip is heated via a resistor, blocking the door that way. They usually take a minute or 2 to unlock.

Keep in mind balancing often isn't even about protecting the machine. A lot is just about smooth operarion. Marketing of silent operation. Things like ELuxes second floor warranty, LGs TrueBalance, or WPs what ever its called.

 

[earthling177]

Price/profit have their drawbacks.

I have a true Euro washer/dryer set that wash, rinse and dry really well. A couple of times a year a load that is hard to balance (particularly heavy single item) is washed and the machine takes a bit more to balance, but it spins at a *decent* rate nonetheless. They seem to have only pros, with the two cons being smaller capacity and hard to service (parts are expensive and take a looong time to show up). Performance is otherwise *excellent*.

I have another washer/dryer set, American style (large, needs hot water to work properly, 110V water heater etc). Not only it has real trouble balancing a single heavy item, I was lied to when shopping for it, I was told that the revision I bought had that problem fixed, which it had not. This machine has real trouble balancing most loads, it can (and it has) ended cycles with clothing sopping wet because the motor confuses what is an unbalanced load either with a load that holds more than average amount of water or with an over sudsing situation or both. There are additional bugs in the timer/programming, but I do not feel like getting into that right now.

Needless to say, whatever dollar (or 5, 10, or 20) they saved by not putting proper suds sensors and unbalanced sensors was wasted, because I am very unlikely to buy laundry equipment from the brand again. People who know me, please respect that I am *choosing* to omit the brands from both sets because I want the *focus* of this discussion to be on the quality of the equipment instead of the brands reputation. They also may have gotten *much* better in the past 15 years or so and I do not want to make this unfair for people shopping now.

I will add two things: even without proper suds sensors and unbalance sensors, the manufacturer *could* have gotten away with it with very clever, very elegant programming. Alas, sadly, their programming is full of bugs and as far away as possible from clever or elegant, from a user's point of view. Second thing, and to me this is important -- my husband *hates* laundry, he begrudgingly did his own laundry until we moved in together. He has run a few loads over the years when I'm traveling etc. He likes the Euro set OK, given that he hates laundry, but he not only *hates* the American brand set, he told me if I ever try to buy another model of this brand I will have a heck of a time convincing him it's the right thing to do. This from a man that would use whatever is available at the nearest laundromat.

That brand is nearly dead to us and many other clients. For lack of a couple of sensors that would not have raised the price 20 bucks. They complain about "the economy" but they don't see their role in it.

I would also like to add that this is not *always* the engineering department's fault. I have plenty of acquaintances that say when they worked for such companies, the machines were designed to a much better/higher standard and then the *marketing* department picked at the bones until they were happy with the *price* point, not the features.

I happen to think that's the wrong move for this century if you want to sell in very large quantities.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.

 

[ea56]

I loved FL's before they started making the way they are now. I'll probably never buy another one because the the "spin hunt" nonsense. The old, simple, electro-mechanical controlled FL's like the Westinghouse and Frigidaire's were really very good machines and they still were conservation friendly because they used less water than a TL.
Eddie

 

[henene4]

No it's not the engeneers fault. You're talking to one in the making.

However, if you design anything, and your boss sees unneeded expenses, well, he sooner or later won't be your boss anymore.

People selling you things under wrong claims is something entirely different and a huge problem as well.

And, while you have a EU washer, I live there, and yes, some machines fuzz up a lot. But what ever it does, it does for a reason.
If that reason suits your needs is arguable, but there is a logic behind it.
Adding another sensor dosen't necessaryly make it better.
Not sure what you have, but the last one I had with an actual 3D movement sensor for the tub was our Panasonic, and it sometimes wouldn't spin at all.
See for your self.



There is more to it the sensing. Wrongly set parameters and troubeling parameters give these issues.
In this case: 60cm wide cabinet, 50cm wide drum, about 55cm tub width. That leaves only 2,5cm of play. To balance a huge load. That will be tangeled. And has to spin quietly.

 

[golittlesport]

Hey Eddie

I didn't realize your LG was a newer machine. Mine is a 3570 with the turbo wash, which recirculates and sprays the water on the load as it tumbles in wash and deep rinse. It really drenches everything good even though it uses a low water level in wash. Some cycles, like towels and bulky, use a deeper water level, but I can't manually select a deeper fill.

I'm thrilled with my machine in all respects. I especially like it spraying water in the spin cycle for a spin-spray rinse. I've never seen a front load washer do that before. Sorry your experience with the brand has not been as good.

 

[ea56]

Rich, mine was a 3170, and it didn't do spray anything. In retrospect the 3570 that you bought would have been a much better choice.

And I really am happy that you like yours! After all why would any of us even be on this site if we didn't have a bit of a passion for washers!
Eddie

 

[earthling177]

Henrik:

The EU set works really well, particularly when we are talking about the spinning. It's a traditional 5kg washer, 1200 rpm spin. When it starts spinning, it starts slowly going towards the distribution speed, distributes the clothes, accelerates towards a "proof" speed and, if things are unbalanced, it distributes again, otherwise it goes straight into a speed range where most of the water is extracted (200-400 rpm), and if everything looks good it keeps speeding up, otherwise it pauses, tumbles for a bit, tries again.

I am *very* impressed about how it can decide pretty quickly if the load is unbalanced or if it needs to shed more water or if it's suds locked, which it tries to clear in a much faster and efficient way than the other set. Also, if it decides that it has a hard to balance load (one heavy item, for example), it just speeds up to *just* below the critical speed to shed as much water as possible and then accelerates to about 800 rpm as quickly as possible to skip the critical speed. That guarantees a load that is as dry as possible under the circumstances. You can see the drum moving a lot inside the machine, but it doesn't hit anything, despite the vibration on the outer cabinet.

The other set is freaking annoying. It reminds me of the very first versions of Netscape, when you were downloading stuff ("34 minutes... 55 minutes... 10 minutes... It will *never* finish... 5 minutes... done."), particularly the dryer which makes the display jump all over the place. The washer, well, what can I say except it has not broken yet. It washes relatively well but not as well as the EU set, it could rinse much better and no one would complain. The spin is just agonizing to watch, it's the place the machine spends most of the time, most of it trying to balance, including the interim spins. As far as I can tell, no suds sensor, no unbalance sensor, just "the motor is taking more current than average" so it stops, tumbles, tries again. Way too many times, it speeds up just fine, everything is perfectly balanced, but the "is it balanced?" routine involves two ramp downs, one with the motor on, one with the motor off, to compare how fast the ramp down is (which correlates with how unbalanced it is) and I have the impression that happens *even* if the motor current is not indicating any imbalance -- so you can start with a load that is *perfectly* balanced and by the time it's speeding up again it's not balanced anymore, which is infuriating. (BTW, you probably have enough clues right now to even know what brand, model and year we are talking about -- please don't mention any of those, I wish to keep the discussion focused not on the manufacturer's reputation, but on the quality/usability of this particular model.)

This is not a case of they don't have enough room in the cabinet for the internal drums to move, there's plenty of room, nothing is banging. Just spin cycles that take forever and sometimes do not even happen because the machine runs out of numbers of tries or time.

And, like I said, I would love for engineers to actually tell their managers and bosses: "look, you can make it work without this sensor, but you will lose a *client*, which will cost you more than what you are saving right now" -- they save less than 20 bucks, lose a sale that is over 2,000. More, if you consider that I won't be looking at their dishwashers or fridges and I was shopping about 4 years ago for induction range and also did not look at their offerings.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.

 

[panthera]

Quite a few variables

Are involved in setting up a successful spin-dry.

Longevity of the washer.

Avoiding 'resonance' points.

Flooring.

Noise.

Wear and tear on the clothes.

Maximum water extraction.

Cost/Utility factors - heavy-duty suspension/bearings/various sensors/high-quality programming.

Time considerations.

 

Of all these, time considerations are the least expensive to 'sacrifice' in the interest of the other considerations. By giving the machine more time to set up a well-balanced spin, one can save the expense of higher-quality components/better programming (software set up for each individual machine's characteristics, for example).

 

We are asking a lot of these machines - and we don't want to pay what they would cost if they were set up to run a quick final spin.

 

 

 

 

[brucelucenta]

LG made

As I am sure everyone is aware, I have the Kenmore Elite version of LG front load washing machine. It does take it's time to balance the load when spinning, but always seems to be able to do it eventually. I have never really been in a big hurry when doing laundry anyway, so it has never bothered me. With all the options I pick to use, it usually takes well over 2 hours anyway, which doesn't bother me. I can see where it might be a problem if you had many loads and needed to do them quickly.

 

[mark_wpduet]

My Duet

same thing!! Final spin (doesn't always) but often takes a while to balance enough to fill it is safe to continue.

Regarding interim spins though - I've noticed the past few years that once in a while, my Duet doesn't reach normal interim spin speed, it's like it's a couple of hundred RPM's off. It's almost like it gave up trying to balance the load and just compromised with a slower interim spin. Weird.

 

[askolover]

My Asko is a little more persnickety than my Miele is.  The Miele does this gradual increase and allows the pump to catch up for a second before it ramps up another notch.  The Asko sometimes appears perfectly balanced to me but it "thinks" it isn't an will try to balance again...and at other times it looks to be very wonky but will go into full spin anyway...go figure!

 

[helicaldrive]

Not just yours

The new SQ FL has a 3-step spin protocol. First it starts to distribute spin slowly, then it slows down for a moment, then returns to the prior distribute speed, then it stops, then it starts up distribute spinning again, this time for a longer time. If it decides to take it, then the tub will sway back and forth and then up and down to set the balancing balls, and then it ramps up. When it ramps up for good, there is never the slightest cabinet vibration. But once in a great while with a heavy load it will walk when setting the balancing balls.

Getting to what bugs you, though, there are times when the first distribute is perfect yet it still goes through the routine I described and ends up with less than it had before. The second distribute is most always balled up and no good. And the third, well, sometimes it "has it" but this third distribute spin ends up being too long and a towel or sheet will ball up and spoil the balance that would have been achieved if it would have ramped up sooner. If that happens then it stops, tumbles clock and counter clockwise a few times, and repeats the same 3-step routine. If that doesn't work, then it stops and just rotates counterclockwise very slowly, then starts spinning clockwise with no further ado. I've never seen it have to do the counterclockwise routine more than twice. Usually it only has to resort to that when the load is too small, or there are some pants legs or sleeves slightly tangled.

It has never spent more than about 5 minutes with all that. Sometimes it never has to repeat the 3-step routine even once throughout the cycle. It has never timed out and skipped a rinse spin or given up on a final spin entirely.

That's the deal. Bottom line is that maybe they all do something like what annoys you. -- and at this point the only ones that simply snap into a spin first time every time would be the bolt down laundromat machines.

Perhaps the point of this 3-step routine is to switch the clothes around so the water is more evenly extracted from them before trying to spin in earnest.

 

[superocd]

While I otherwise love my front-load Kenmore (built by LG), the spin issue irritates me to no end. Very rarely do I have a load that is truly out of balance, however, the machine will ramp up and then stop or slow down all of the sudden, due to the slightest hint of vibration. Rinse and repeat (no pun intended) and then the computer seems to "give up" and spin.

This is why I don't like computers in appliances, but the only non-computerized front loader that I know of are the old Frigidaires from the mid-90s to early-2000s. I think the mechanical-control Speed Queen FLs may still be computerized.

There have been times that it has taken almost 30 minutes for the machine to spin. The machine is level and on a solid floor.

 

[earthling177]

Yeah, that has been my experience too. Older machines would be done in a flash.

Then I got my EU set, which does have a computer, and not only it gets done fast, but with excellent results. I think it uses fuzzy logic, not sure.

So, you will understand when I heard lots of people complaining about the new ones here, particularly the tons of time trying to balance. Then I got one. 30 minutes to balance the last spin is when we are lucky. It has spent over 45 minutes and finished the cycle with the laundry sopping wet -- translation: gave up spinning.

Ordinarily, I'd be like all the run-of-the-mill Americans and just say "frontloaders are all crap". Problem is that I've *used* the ones that are well engineered and well made. I expect more and better.

The American set that I don't like at all and my husband hates lost that company business and will continue to do so until I have evidence that they got much better and are not nickel-and-diming everything.

I will say this though -- my impression of them is not *worse* than it is because about 15 years ago a good sensor to use in this case (trip on unbalance) was expensive and the ones in a good price range were unreliable. Not anymore -- any cell phone is likely to have at least one accelerometer, and good smartphones have several such sensors (gyroscopes, accelerometers etc).

I will also add that salespeople may be trained to lie to prospect customers, and say whatever they want to or have to to sell the machine -- to me they just look sad and bad. My dad is a retired professor of mechanical engineering, I am a computer geek. I know more or less what parts cost and how much effort it is to program stuff. Also how much it costs to manufacture stuff. And even if we didn't, we can ask people here who work(ed) in the field.

Start designing and putting cheap sensors in your laundry machines now. You want to have those working pretty well before I buy my next set if you want me to be a client of your company.

As things stand right now, you are risking me not looking at anything American anymore. The Euro household appliances are about the same price, and sometimes even cheaper than the American stuff, they work far better.

It's also more than ludicrous when my EU washer can do *2* 5 kg loads in a shorter time than my American set can do one load. Particularly when the American one says the cycle length should be the same as the EU machine, but then there's the interminable balance the load for spins, which adds a ton of time to the cycle length.

Manufacturers: open you eyes, this *has* been costing you *clients*, which is more than you lose by putting a 20 buck sensor or two in a machine that has several hundred dollars in profit already.

Thank you.
   -- Paulo.