Gas dryers - visible flame?

[twintubdexter]

Cole, first post

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">My Mom's old Apex had a perforated drum and you could look through the glass window and see the flames in the upper left-hand corner.. I've mentioned it too many times before so I won't get into it again. It was "fun." Working at the appliance store all those years, I saw several dryers come in as trades that had caught fire, some brand new ones too. The ones that stick in my mind are the electric Maytag Halo-of-Heat models. I worked on a lot of those and they were very fine appliances. but when the high-limit thermostat failed they would burn a big ring into the front, like they had been branded like a steer. Usually the door seal and other non--metal parts were burned up too.</span>

 

[circlew]

Helicaldrive, properly sized (and properly installed) wiring doesn't "heat up". 10 AWG wire is normally used for a dryer, though if it's a long run, 8 AWG should be used. I've never had any circuit breaker get more than warm with a full load on it. If a CB gets too hot without being overloaded, it's not making good contact with the busbar. If a fuse overheats in the same situation, it's either making poor contact with the fuse holder, or the fuse holder is making poor contact with the busbar (if the type that plugs or bolts on to one). Premium panelboards have silver flashed copper busbars, and breakers that attach firmly. If a buildings service equipment is worn out, poor quality, or inadequate, it needs to be replaced promptly.

 

[combo52]

Dryer Heating Types

Interesting thread.

 

Hi Sean, MT HOH electric dryers were 4800 watts and had more than their share of  heatdamaged clothing and fires when things went wrong.

 

10 Ga copper wire does get warm when running and electric dryer, yes 8 Ga is cooler running but keep in mind the shorter the run of 10 Ga wire the Hotter it gets. 

 

Wiring failures at connections, circuit breakers, buss bars etc are a very common electric dryer failure, I see some form of wiring failures on electric dryers nearly every week often several times a week.

 

Generally in a typical home no other circuit is loaded as heavily as the dryers circuit, electric water heaters come close but are usually 4,500 watts where as dryers are close to 6000 watts on the same size circuit and wiring.

 

There were so many wiring failures related to electric dryers in our neighboring county [ Montgomery County ] that in the 60s through the 70s they required 8 Ga wire a 40 amp breaker or fuses and use of a range cord and receptacle. on all dryer installations.

 

John L.

 

[DADoES]

 
Specific circuits in a non-typical home can easily top a dryer circuit.  Resistance HVAC heat for example, and my tankless water heater.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Yes.

Electric furnace 90+ amp double pole, poss. 2 double pole breakers
typical stove 50 amp double pole
Hot tub 60 amp double pole
tankless w.htr 80-120 amp double and triple pole breakers
RV outlet 50 amp double pole
electric car plu 50 amp double pole
packaged AC unit 60 amp double pole
pool heater 50 amp double pole

an electric dryer just uses 25-30 amps double pole.

 

[bradfordwhite]

It's just funny hearing the apologists for gas dryers.

We don't need to hear the "I've had a gas dryer all my life and...... blah, blah, it's always worked......" crowd members.

yeah, obviously, if it's what you've known all your life, your going to defend it like it's your child.

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What counts are those who've seen both and can speak for the differences.

I've seen both and there IS a difference. Heed the warnings if your strong enough. lol

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Not only have I seen the differences in gas dryers compared to electric, but also water heaters, furnaces, stoves, and pool heaters.

 

Personally, I've always had electric dryers.  Have had both electric and gas water heaters, had gas furnaces for many years of my life

When I owned rental properties in the 90s they all had gas water heaters and furnaces. I've changed out my fair share.
Nearly all had electric stoves.

Obviously, any dryer with defective heat limit switches, regardless of gas or electric, can cause problems. I've seen that as well.

There is much more that can go wrong with a gas appliance compared to an electric one.

I also collect retro/used/antique things besides appliances. One of them is older linens. You can tell when something has been dried repeatedly in a gas dryer. It dingier, it has a smell to it, the fabric is rougher.
There is a difference.

I've also seen the utility areas of laundromats behind the gas dryers and it always has the stereotypical brown/yellow grunge.
That generally doesn't happen with electric dryers, electric furnaces, electric water heaters, electric stoves.

I've seen coin-op electric dryers in apartment buildings and they might get dirty from daily wear, like any appliance, but they don't get the yellow grunge on them.

 

I've had probably 100 dryers since I've been fixing/collecting/ repairing  and gas dryers build up a yellow/brown haze on the inside of the drum and obviously on the clothing that has been in the drum.

 

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In short gas is messier and certainly more dangerous.
And GAS clothes dryers, as they have been designed so far using direct contact of combusted gas on clothing; it is a terrible design.


Will a gas dryer with working high limit thermostats dry your clothes?
Yes, but it's not going to be as clean as an electric dryer.....which is contrary to the whole idea of doing laundry in the first place.

 

IMO- A proper gas dryer should have a combustion chamber and heat exchanger like a gas furnace.  That combustion chamber should have it's own fresh air intake and exhaust.  

 

There is a good reason why as far back as the 50s there were advertisements for "clean living" in an all electric home.  It's true.

 

[tomturbomatic]

RE: Reply #25

We had two Norge gas dryers in the 60s that had the big lift up door in the top for pilot/burner access. The underside of the access door would get fuel grime buildup on it. In warm weather when I use my outdoor gas dryers, I notice that the fabrics coming out of them do not have as sweet a smell as those dried in the electric dryers. I'm not complaining and after the first load or two, I don't notice it.   

 

[circlew]

I just checked the circuit breakers on two circuits serving 4000 W fan-forced electric heaters, that each have been running continuously for hours. The 20 A breakers were only slightly warm, and the 70 A feeder breaker to the panel serving one of the heaters was cool. I also felt the cables, and they were barely warmer than those with little if any load. The newer panel is an Eaton CH, and the older a Cutler-Hammer, which also uses the CH type breakers. I do remember the old FPE breakers getting warmer than these, but not overly hot.

A 20 A breaker is rated at 4800 W at 240 V, and for continuous loads limited to 85%, which is 4080 W, so 4000 W is nearly 85%. A 30 A breaker is rated at 7200 W, and 85% is 6120 W, so a dryer is less than the continuous rating. If a breaker of the proper rating overheats, it must either be defective, or it and the panel are poor quality. I don't doubt John sees problems with wiring associated with dryers, as I know lots of buildings have less than top quality wiring.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Proper breaker is important.

 

I remember a friend had a 1970 rental mobile home with a newer (2000ish) GE washer and electric dryer .  He mentioned that he kept having problems with the dryer not working.  He had a service person come out and replace a part on the dryer but still not working right.  

 

I checked the breaker box and they had the dryer circuit as a double pole 20 amp.  It was enough for the motor to run and heat but not continuous.  The breaker also didn't switch off correctly because it was damaged from getting hot.  It wouldn't stay on. 

 

[kenwashesmonday]

There was a block of Gold Medallion all electric houses in the town I grew up in.  By the 1970s, they all had gas lines run to them due to the high cost electric heat.

 

[maytag85]

The house I live in that was built in 1985 and it would classify as a Gold Medallion all electric home but the previous owners got gas in 2001 sometime. I find it interesting how in the Live Better Electrically commercials from the 50’s and 60’s they tout that having a all electric home is better but they don’t even bother mentioning what the electric bill would be like in a all electric house.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Electric may be more expensive in some areas compared to the equivalent BTU in  gas, coal, wood, etc.  

 

But that doesn't change the fact that for <span style="text-decoration: underline;">living standards</span> electric is still better, more convenient, safer, and cleaner.

 

Those are two different issues.  

 

Sure you could shovel coal or wood daily to heat your home,

or you could spend thousand of dollars to install a tank and a dirty oil furnace,

or spend the same to install pipes, ducts, a chimney, and a gas furnace that will need frequent service calls and create noisy background disturbances.

it might be half as expensive monthly.  It might be 1/3 the cost monthly.

 

It's interesting because by 1970 it was clear that homes built in say:

1920 had no insulation, were drafty, and expensive to heat.

1960 had minimal insulation 1" , no vapor barrier, cheap windows, and was easier to heat

1970 had more insulation 3", a vapor barrier, thermo pane windows, and was even easier to heat, keep comfortable, and less expensive monthly.

They should have focused on subsidizing home insulation, windows, and doors rather than

subsidizing residential gas service because most all homes already had electric service, it is expensive to install gas lines, and we would have been better off in general.

 

By the mid 1980s new homes in the northern regions had 2x6 walls with R-19 and ceilings with R-60 insulation so they were on the right track. 

 

Now insulation has got so good, people in some areas are heating their homes with light bulbs or the equivalent.  That's awesome.

Goals as they say.

 

Insulation: doesn't require a pipeline or over head lines, doesn't require a service call,  doesn't make noise,  has no moving parts.   

 

[bradfordwhite]

Insulation and solar electric is the way forward

Solar electric is getting so affordable convenient and available too.

 

You can power your home with this.

 

I've seen utility company advertisements where they will install panels on your roof for like no money down and if you feed back into the grid you may not have to spend any money.  Might even get money back.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2743004825...=&campaignid=11755692906&mkgroupid=1177688922

 

[bradfordwhite]

I hadn't looked at these in a while. 

 

[combo52]

Electric Dryers Loading Their Circuit

Yes I know that there are many circuits in most homes larger than the 30 Amp line most dryers use.

 

My Point Was that in most homes the dryer more often and more consistently loads its circuit nearer to its limit, an electric range, an electric water heater, central A/C- HP and even back up electric heating almost never load the circuit to around 90% of its capacity.

 

John 

 

 

 

 

[askolover]

My house was built in 1956 and was entirely electric.  It didn't have a dryer connection in the house at all.  At some point in time one of the previous owners who worked for the gas company changed out to gas water heater, stove, furnace, and ran a line out to the shop and had a gas dryer in there.  I have 3 240V outlets (well 4 now since I got the Miele and had to run one for it).  After I bought the house I was looking at the fuse box and saw the reason why the PO changed everything to gas.  There were melted wires in there!  Now, the only thing that pulls much juice is when the central AC is running.

As far as yellowing of the dryer or the clothes, never had an issue.  Mother has had both fuels in my lifetime.  I do know that homes with an indoor cigarette smoker will have more yellowing with gas appliances.

 

[twintubdexter]

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">Heaven forbid I'd have an electric clothes dryer or an electric water heater, not with 2 central air conditioners (have friends that have 4) with triple-digit temps the norm for all of July & August. If all of my electronics, TV's and computers and the like, along with the all of the lighting could operate on gas I'd have those too. I suppose in a way they do since most of the electric power I receive is generated with natural gas.</span>

 

<span style="font-size: 14pt; color: #008000;">Gas...I like it.</span>

 

[warmsecondrinse]

It seems to me that performance years down the road depends on the quality of equipment installed and skill level of the installer. Skill level of the service folks currently maintaining older systems is as well. I can tell you that most techs today have no idea what to do with a 100+ year old one-pipe steam heating system or know that it supposed to be silent or operate at pressures that are comically low by today's standards.

Maybe other older technologies have the same problem?

#25

I agree with you in that attitudes depend on what one is used to and how well it worked.

My grandparents had a 1,000 gallon oil tank buried in the back yard. Tank fed the oil-fired boiler present when my grandparents bought the house in 1953. Never a smell of oil during day-to-day operation..... EVER. As in ZERO. A couple times I was present when the guy from the oil company came to change the oil filter. He told me oil should never smell and if it does, something somewhere is wrong.

The attic was insulated with 6 inches of what my grandfather called "rock wool" He said it was made from the slag left from some refining operation I've forgotten. He told me it was popular 1900 - 1930's because it was the only insulation cheap enough to be worth installing given the prevailing low oil prices.

House had huge exterior storm windows one had to climb up a ladder

After one frigid winter in the late 70's I went around sealing crevices, put in insulation behind outlets, etc. -- the things an industrious young teen could do

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I grew up in a 60's development originally slated to be called "Gaslight Village". The only thing not gas-powered was the refrigerator. Even the lights outside were gas.

The only complaint I recall about gas dryers was that particles (which should not have been there) came in with the gas and built up somewhere in the burner causing it to burn inefficiently (i.e. yellow). Once the burner was clean all problems with singeing and yellowing went away.

When hurricane Gloria hit we lost power for 8 days. I was very happy to be able to take a shower and have coffee

Many/most older homes in the northeast were wired only for 120v. 240v "had to be brought in from the street and was very expensive". That was the mantra. I can't speak to the truth of that, beyond that it was the line from the electric company and repeated by everyone who looked into it or had it done.

I should point out that gas was available everywhere. I only know of one all-electric development where I grew up. Literally everyone else I knew had gas service. Under those conditions in the 70's and 80's gas was definitely cheaper than either oil or electricity. That all-electric development went up in the mid 70's. IIRC the houses were insulated as 'much as possible' (FWIW) but the electric bills were so outrageous that within a few years most owners had replaced the baseboard electric with oil-fired hot water.

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Solar electric

Solar cell efficiency keeps creeping upward and costs keep creeping downward. Solar electric makes good economic sense today in places it didn't 20 years ago. There's no reason to think that trend will not continue.