Gas heated Washer

[spee_man]

Hi guys,
I often heard, that some of you want to buy a euro washer. But a cycle takes to long because of the small 115 V internal Heater. So I ask myself, why european manufacturers don't offer a Gas Heated washer! What do you think, would that make your decission easier?

 

[foraloysius]

Spee_man,

In the past Whirlpool made a combo for the American market that was both available in gas and electric. The gas heater heated both in the wash cycle and in the dry cycle IIRC. I think some members here told about huge problems with corrosion due to the moisture that is released during burning gas.

Ofcourse there is in theory no problem because many American households have a 220V available, so the 110V doesn't have to be a problem. If only a manufacturer was willing to make a 220V washer.

 

[toggleswitch]

Venting it would be a PITA.

I saw in an Amsterdam self-service Laundr-o-mat (waving to Louis!) F/L machines that had steem feeds and returns. There were heat exchangers in them to heat the water. WAY COOL.

LOL I could not figure out (At first) why there were FIVE (four?) pipes/hoses and a power-cord/flex.

The dryers were also steam-heated.

This was an ingenious way to use fuel-oil as a heat source. Apparently natural gas was not available, and there was no space or ability to use and store propane (bottled) gas.

 

[spee_man]

Gas heater

But I can remember somebody writing that it isn't allways possible to get a 220V source.

 

[maytagbear]

220 V AC

is a lot easier to get here in the US than natural gas lines.

Many rural areas in the United States are almost totally electric or electric and fuel oil. Of course, there is propane and LNG, but they have their own drawbacks.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[appnut]

Steve, yes the WP and Lady Kenmore gas versions had the dryer exhaust run throughout the entire cycle, what a way to fall asleep when the combo next door was diong an after the family bathes/showers load. The exhaust faced toward my bedroom window so I could heaer it go through each of the spins.

I think these may have used the self-igniting feature. John LeFevre has the gas WP version. There may have also been wearing out of some sort of heat shield, that seems to have been the demise for both the 1959 & 1964 LK combos next door.

 

[launderess]

220V In The United States

While many houses do have a 220v power outlet in their laundry areas, there are quite a few homes that do not (older buildings, apartments/condos/co-ops/older buildings)and I think many appliance makers are reluctant to design a product which will require additional costs beyond regular installation.

Depending upon where one lives and skill level, installing a 220v outlet can either be inexpensive/a piece of cake, or a major cost and headache. Some electricians do not take "small" jobs like simple rewiring/installing an outlet, or will bill you the minimum daily rate for what should be a simple few hours work.

Remember there is quite a vast amount of housing in the United States that was built long before all the electrical mod-cons we consider essential for living today were even thought of. Those grand pre-war buildings many people would sell their first born to get into, often have very old and poor electrical service. We're speaking of maybe one or two (if that) 120v outlets per room, with maybe 80amp or 100amp service with fuses. This would make adding a 220v outlet not an easy thing as usually the fuse box is going to need to be up graded to a circut breaker box (required per NYC code), in addition to the 220v wiring/outlet installation. In NYC this could easily run upwards of $1,000 or more. Add that to the cost of a washer which is already over $1500 and you see why some don't wish to bother.

Again some won't balk at the cost, but if one is not living in a priviate home there are other considerations. If renting the landlord's permission will be required for any electrical work. If living in a condo or co-op board approval may be required. Again to many this is just too much stuff and nonesense just to run a washing machine.

Miele experiences this first hand, but are happy enough being a "niche" high end appliance maker so are not worried about mass appeal. Our Miele dealer tells us he looses more sales to the fact a 220v outlet has to be installed. To Miele's credit, the newer models of washing machines are now straight 220v powered, thus no more split 220v/120v special Miele outlet, but still.

In days gone by appliance makers were happy to make different variations of say a washing machine to serve different markets. Today that does not seem to be the case. One usually has one model with various additons (TOL,MOL and BOL), but designed to sell from Maine to San Francisco.

Steam heating for washing machines/dryers:

Very common in commercial laundries, large ships and other large laundries. In fact when steam boilers became safe for industrial use, many of the first laundries to adopt the technology were called "Steam Laundries". When one thinks about it a central boiler system makes good sense. Rather than many appliances using power to generate heat/steam (washing machines, dryers, irons, mangles), let a central system do it instead. This also means all the condensed water from the return lines can be collected and reused by the system. IIRC maintainence is easier on such steam heated appliances as the source of heat is not within the units. This means for washers at least no worries about scale and lime deposits caking up the heating elements.

L.

 

[tomturbomatic]

I saw a copper tub Easy with three dunking bells and a spinner with a gas burner under the washtub. It looked pretty primitive and dangerous.

European washers made for 220 volt operation like Asko, Miele and others can complete a 190 F cycle in under an hour. If fast water heating is a prioroity, you go with something that heats water to higher temperatures faster. The logistics of dealing with a gas burner and the products of combustion in a small cabinet pretty much eliminate gas as a practical source of heat for internal water heating.

 

[askomiele]

In the beginning there where gas heated semi-automatics, but to day only professional washers can be equipped with gas-heaters and no all OPL models. In older times there where even coal heated washers. I think that space is a problem. Those cabinets are not huge!

(on the picture you see left a gas-heated semi-automatic, in the middel a coal heated, and right an electric heated model (with an extra hot water tank))

 

[toggleswitch]

NYC has some of the oldest housing stock in the country .

Said: We're speaking of maybe one or two (if that) 120v outlets per room, with maybe 80amp or 100amp service with fuses.

Response: This is acutally a LOT of (*good*) service here. There are still apts that have 110v 30a service- two 15a fuses. And also the (*NEW*) min is 110/220v 40a which can carry 4 to 6 fuses. ti is stillrather flimsy.

Many apts still only have one ceiling ligt and one electrical outlet (power-point)per room.

 

[toggleswitch]

ah......... the 80 or 100amp might be the MAIN service in a building of up to perhaps 6 or 8 apts.

I read it as per-apt service.

My mother has a two family house with 110/220v 50a service per apt. Even with gas cooking and dryer, as well as fuel-oil heat and hot water, it is VERY minimal.

Her home was built in 1955 which to us is *NEW* and in other parts of the country very old.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Gas is good but electricity is too expensive!

If in the US you got to use the gas (either with internal washer heater than with the central gas heater sistem), you would get in my opinion the best sistem to heat laundry water!

Here in Italy we have 220V and wahsers use electricity to go on, but here electricity is not produced with nuclear sources, and although we have the Alpes and almost the 90% of electricity we produce come from idro-electrical centrals, and the remaining 10% come from wind or geo-thermic sources, the production is not enough: that's why we have to import the electricity we need more by other confinant country, as France or Swiss, and this make electricity for italian bills very very expensive.
We would use the gas (which costs less than electricity power)but there is not any washer sold in Italy which allow you to do it. I think it's the same even for the other countries in the Europe. You might hold the only washer hose provided for the cold water on the hot water (coming from the central gas burner), but I don't know anyone who did it, even because you would do the rinse cycle with hot water too.

Of fourse for the US people would be a very good step ahead to reach 220V and add some oultlets more in their houses, because I heard you speaking of very few oulets in the apartement, thinking that here we have at least 4 outlet and 1 ceiling light per room, if you consider livignroom or bedroom, becasue in kitchen they can raise up to 2 or 3 light point and 7 or 8 outlet.

Ah, I'm forgetting the maximum of the power you cas use that's 3300W if your electric contract is of 3Kw, 5000W if your electric contract is of 4,5 Kw and 6000W if your contract is of 6Kw.
If you have 3Kw contract your circuit need only two fuses 16A for electric oven or if you have some electric stove, 10A for anithig else. Some years ago, any appliances with an electric internal heater must have been held on a 16A outlet, now only the electric ovens, because the heater of the washers and the dishwashers can go on even on a 10A circuit. You might require a 25A or more if have more than a 3Kw contract (4,5 or 6), to allow you to use more than a heater contemporanealy, without any risk of blackout.

That's all for a graet topic which discuss on.
Good Bye
Diomede

 

[tomturbomatic]

Well, I must have missed those gas and coal fired Mieles when I went on their website. Many, many dryers in the United states can be adapted to operate on 115 volts by moving a wire on the terminal block. I had to run my DE806 that way for a while until I had a lot of electrical work done in my townhouse more than 20 some years ago. Yesterday, I was looking at the parts list for my dear, departed Miele W1025 and happened to notice that while the machine used two heating elements, each was rated 1.5kw at 110 volts.

 

[launderess]

Early Miele Washers Sold In The US

Actually could run on 110v/120v power, at least the W1070 could. Miele sold a kit one used to disable one of the 1.5 kw heating elements, so the machine pulled only the 1.5, which is perfectly fine for 110v/120v outlets. IIRC, even some early W1918 models could be run in the same manner. Obviously reaching the higher water temps of say 200F was not going to happen on 110v power (or probably would take a long time from cold water), but for a warm wash or heating warm water to "hot" and keeping it there, 1.5 should be fine.

Miele apparently had this feature on the early North American washer models as they were trying to break into the market, and didn't want to turn too many potential customers off by requiring only 220v power.

Nice thing about early Miele washers is they are mechanical controled, which always gets my vote!

Launderess

 

[tomturbomatic]

Say Hallelujah for timers that the operator can control.

 

[MrX]

The 110V/220V thing is very annoying in the US. We had similar problems in Europe, but thankfully someone took the decision to standardise on 220V 50Hz.

There were older European wiring systems in some countries that were quite similar to those found in North America. 2 hots at 110-127V and a neutral. 127V appliances disappeared in the 1940s/50s, so any homes that still had 3-wire supplies would have had the outlets all wired hot to hot giving them 220V 50Hz.

It just made logical sense to get rid of the 110-127V supplies and move everything to 220V. It gives you far more flexibility as you can draw 16A at 230V from the vast majority of European outlets giving you almost 3680Watts to play with.

(The UK standardised on 13 amp outlets and fused plugs which prevent you from drawing anymore.. this does cause some problems for appliance manufacturers as they need to keep the wattage down.)

Hopefully, American electricians start installing more 220V outlets as you guy seem to need them in more places ... bigger air conditioners, heaters, washing machines with heaters... etc

220V dishwashers are quite handy too!

 

[mrboilwash]

And most people in Europe after the war have not been as well equiped with electical appliances, or even homes, as the Americans, so it was so much easier for us to get rid of the oldfashioned 110V systems. Just changing the lightbulbs ;-))
I`m not sure in which year exactly Germany had been finally standardised to 220V/380V. Would be interesting to know.
Some parts of the country seem to be running on 220V from the beginning of electrification, while others had 110V.

 

[toggleswitch]

Thanks to our Euro-resident friends.

Stuff like the bit of history presented are FASCINATING to me and for the most part difficult (if not impossilbe) to find from other sources.

Too bad about the Hertz/cycles. That will certainly prevent (or hugely delay, at the very least) one world electrical standard.

One set of outlets (power-points), one set of color-coding of wires, and set of voltages/cycles world-wide would have been ideal.

Then, of course, is the issue of the eradication of the UK ring-circuit! LOL

In theory the major aspects of the telephone systems are all standardized, IIRC. Inter-connectivity tells us that!

Ring circuit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Guys,

In AU, we've had 220V 50hz 10amp 3 wire services since the 1920's. Being one big island we never had the issue of different standards in different states.

In the really early days however, there were strange standards on a per town basis. The weirdest I've read about was out in Mt Isa in the early nineteen hundreds, they were running 200hz 75v services.

Now days a standard circuit is rated to 16amps, but there is usually only 10amp Power points fitted to that circuit. (Anywhere up to 20) The joy of this is, that you can just upgrade to a 15amp PP without having to run a new circuit (in some cases) as the wiring is of suitable guage for 15amp.

A standard switchboard is usually an 80-100amp service and the highest rated cirucit breaker is usually 32amp, which would be a range circuit, or AC. 3 phase is relatively easy to get in a house in most areas, its just a matter of running a new service from the street to the house.

In Australia, unlike the US or UK, it is illegal for homeowners to undertake their own wiring work. We must get a licensed electrician.