Gas water heater leaked via TPR valve....need your advice

[passatdoc]

Hi folks

This morning I discovered some water had leaked out of my seven year old, 40 gallon gas Bradford White water heater. The heater sits in a drain pan atop a pedestal in the garage. I found about 35-50 ml of water on the garage floor. A quick check showed the drip pan was dry, and the drain pipe leading to the temperature/pressure relief valve was wet.

The heat appears to give excellent amounts of hot water, there is no sediment in the lines and it isn't making any funny noises.

I went to Lowes today (unrelated reason) and, while there, asked the salesperson in the plumbing department about the leak. I should add that we had unseasonably cold weather in California, with rain/hail/thunder, due to a storm from Alaska (no, Sarah Palin was not in town...). Temperatures were 15 F/10 C lower than normal, and it was a quick drop.

The salesman said that if the heater appears to be working, in terms of producing plenty of hot water, and if there is not leak from the tank itself (pan is bone dry), it could be the result of the sudden weather change. He said if the drainage disappears once the weather warms up, it may be just due to weather. He said in the worst case scenario that the TPR valve might need to be replaced, but that the heater itself is most likely ok.

Questions:

1. Is this true? Can a sudden temperature drop (garage is unheated/uninsulated, and we were in the 70s on Sunday, now in the 50s) actually cause "normal" leakage from the TPR valve?

2. If the leakage continues, can an average consumer replace a TPR valve? Or is this something only a skilled plumber should attempt?

Thanks in advance for your answers,

Jim

 

[mattl]

The valve simply screws in, nothing special about it. You might need a good sized wrench to do it though...

As to your other questions, I have no idea. Perhaps a big change in pressure might affect it. 20 degree temp drop, might cause the tank to contract a minimal amount, can't imagine it would cause an overflow.

 

[passatdoc]

I don't know what the barometric pressure did over the last day, but generally it drops when inclement weather blows in. The Lowes guy says it can happen when temperature drops rapidly, but not when it warms up. If what he really meant was "when barometric pressure drops rapidly, your valve can leak, and it's normal."

Matt, are there specific TPR valves for each make of water heater, or are they universal? When you replace it, are you supposed to use any sort of seal on it (lubricant, compound, etc.)??? Thanks for your help.

 

[panthera]

Hmmm,

I don't know, but given the price for a new TPR valve versus the enormous damage a leaking (or, may the gods forbid, non-functioning) one can cause, I'd replace it.

It's not a tough repair. You have to get one specified for that water heater and in compliance with California codes.

Basically, you turn off the heater, shut off the water to the heater, open a hot water valve higher than the tank or at the end of the hot water line, drain the tank of several gallons (might be a good time to flush it), remove the old valve and put in the new valve.

You have to pay close attention to the seal and make sure the drain pipe is not blocked, crushed or to close to the floor - local codes regulate all those things.

Be a good time, too, to make sure the straps are set properly in studs and not just into the drywall.

Of course, it only takes the gentlest of bumps against many to trigger the test lever - I check my parents' regularly and it responds to one gentle finger.

 

[volvoguy87]

TPR Valve.

They usually cost between 10 and 15 bucks or so. They are pretty universal, but they are made for different water heater wall thicknesses (how thick the insulation is between the tank and the outer shell). When I replace them, I usually get a long one so there is room for an insulating blanket to be wrapped around the tank and go between the tank and the TPR overflow pipe.

You'll need a decent wrench for the job just as Panthera described. Most new valves come with some Teflon tape for the threads.

The overflow pipe is screwed into the TPR valve. Simply unscrew it, and reinstall it on the new valve. The threads go the normal way and are not reversed.

Good luck,
Dave

Keep a sharp eye out to see if it happens with the new valve. If so, you'll need an expansion tank.

 

[sudsman]

they do need to be replaced from time to time

On a home heater it is not a hard job just be sure to use a good teflon tape and the threads are clean.. commerical t#P cost about 200 home heater are not very much.. Pressure can make them leak but usually it is caused by them being weak and that is when to replace them. The can "stick" open and flood everything very fast.

 

[passatdoc]

Thanks for the advice, everybody.

Would it be a good idea to drain/turn off/disconnect the heater, remove the valve, and take it to the hardware store (e.g. Lowe's) and show it to them? Or is it enough just to have the make and model number written down? (i.e. do they have some sort of chart that tells you which valve to buy??).

I did note that the copper drain pipe screws into the valve, should be easy to remove. The end of the copper drain pipe is only a few inches from the PVC drain pipe of the drip pan, so at first glance, the water appeared to be coming from the pan. But the pan was dry, as was the PVC pipe, and the inside of the copper drain pipe was damp.

Fortunately, the heater is in the garage, and per building code, the garage floor is 6 inches/15 cm below the house floor, and there is a slight but definite slope of the garage floor toward the street/garage door. Any water spill in the garage always heads out toward the door/street. I have concrete baseboards and nothing stored directly on the floor: everything is up on steel racks, off the floor. My previous water heater leak (once) and washer floods (twice with my old White-Westinghouse, twice with my GE) required a little mopping, but nothing was ruined and the water just flowed out to the driveway

PS to Panthera: the Persil is safely stored in an overhead cabinet. A water flood with not harm it.

 

[mrb627]

TPR Valve

I just went through this. It is the job of the TPR to release a build up of pressure and if it seals and doesn't drip constantly, it is doing its job. If this continues to happen, it is more likely the result of water temperature coming into the tank. Heating very cold water up to 120 will cause quite a build up of pressure. The addition of a thermal expansion tank is the best solution in this case. For some reason, this seems to effect gas water heaters much more than electric ones. Perhaps because the heat source is solely at the bottom of the tank while an electric heater has two elements staggered in the tank.

In my situation, I went ahead and replaced the water heater. It was 11 years old. Why wait for a leak or burst if you don't have to.

Malcolm

 

[panthera]

Dem Himmel sei Dank!

As long as das Waschmittel is safe, nothing else matters.

There should be a clear statement somewhere on the water heater as to the requirements for the pressure relief valve. You could just take it to Lowe's...but if it's not quite the right one to begin with, that could just be perpetuating the problem.

If you can't find the data on the heater, look for the manufacturer's website.

One question, is the water heater still under warranty? Could it be that this is a warranty issue? You might end up getting it fixed for free...or losing the warranty for some absurd reason.

Good to hear that the pipe is above the floor.

One possibility which is worth considering - is there any reason the pressure in your area might have hit a strong surge recently? That might do it.

 

[passatdoc]

The heater is seven years old and had a six year warranty. Of course.

The present heater was installed on a weekend--at a premium price--by a plumbing service after its predecessor began leaking (from the tank bottom). I did not get to "shop around". If/when I replace it, I would look for a longer warranty, say 9-12 years. Historically I get only seven years per heater, and all the heaters had six year warranties.

I will keep an eye out on the water dripping. So far this morning no new water had formed. It's still cold here, the big temperature drop was on Tuesday night, and it stayed cold here yesterday and today (Alaskan storm). I suppose if I don't see any more dripping, I could just "watch" the situation. But I suspect the TPR valve ought to be replaced, since the heater itself "seems" to be working fine (in terms of putting out lots of hot water).

 

[neptunebob]

A little pressure relief valve trivia:

It was a much larger version of a pressure relief valve like the one on water heaters that caused the Three Mile Island nuclear accident? A valve like that stuck open, releasing a lot of hot water. There were a lot of other events that took place later that made the situation worse (like not answering a phone) but I guess even a relief valve in that situation can stick open, maybe from minerals?

Replacing the valve on your water heater should be simple job, just make sure to turn off the water supply first.

 

[spankomatic]

I would also check your hot water temp. It could be the thermostat. If the thermostat system is malfunctioning and heating the water hotter than normal this would also cause the relief valve to do it's job and OPEN. I don't think it's the weather that is causing your problem. If it was the weather it would seem other people would be having the same problem at the same time. More than likely it's just the relief valve that needs to be replaced. Very common repair. I would check the hot water temp first though. See how hot it comes out of the faucet when the water heater shuts off or when water is coming out of the relief valve. You would have to check your owners manuel to see what the max temp should be. Probably 160.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jim

 

[passatdoc]

Yikes

The water heater sits in a corner, very heavily strapped to the wall and screws are in studs, not drywall. THAT'S not the problem.

The problem is that the TPR drainpipe, which does screw into the valve, is otherwise welded together (through two 90-degree angles) and I can't disassemble it without cutting the pipe. I can't "unscrew" the pipe at the valve, because of the wall blocking the clearance needed to rotate the pipe. It could be done if there was no wall. I think the reason it's welded is because in the past, when heaters were replaced, they screwed in a short section of copper pipe into the valve, and then welded the drain pipe to this short section.

My guess is that one would have to cut the pipe's horizontal segment (after it leaves the valve and travels over the top of the heater), then unscrew the valve-end of the pipe and replace the valve, and then weld the pipe back together. So it looks like I may have to call a plumber on this one. Dang.

I checked the steel bowl I placed under the pipe to catch drainage. There was about 60 ml/2 oz of water in it, so at some point it's been slowly discharging overnight. We have had winter-like temperatures and the house was 56 degrees inside this morning (heat shut off, I had shut down the furnace at the end of March). Someone posted that very cold water entering the heater could possibly cause this (i.e. a negative change in the cold water line temp) and that's entirely possible because we've had four days of winter-like weather.

I think I may have to bite the bullet and hire a plumber to fix this issue. I'd hate to have a major leak or explosion if I failed to replace the valve.

 

[passatdoc]

A bit of good news

Like almost all home built in SoCal since the 1980s, I'm in a homeowner association. Cities LOVE HOAs because then they don't have to maintain the streets (we do, because the streets are "private" even though the community is gated), and they don't have to enforce codes because the HOA does it for them (buyers have signed agreements submitting to HOA rules, which buyers in a non-HOA property don't do).

Anyway, one advantage of a HOA is that you get access to group rates on things. For example, the trash collection fee is negotiated by the HOA with the city and is tacked on to the monthly fee, but it's lower in cost than if you had to pay an individual bill. In addition, there is a "contracted plumbing service" which handles community property (pools, irrigation). In addition, the company is contracted by HOA to provide "free checks" to homeowners, the way the gas company will check your range or other gas lines for safety. You are not obligated to use them to replace anything, however. I did use them for my last water heater replacement because they were willing to come on a Sunday when I woke up to find my heater dead (seven years ago).

Anyway, they left a maintenance sticker on the heater that said to call if there were any issues. Their policy is that they will do a free inspection on any heater they installed (this is because they installed it, not because they are the "contracted plumber" for the association). I am home all day tomorrow anyway awaiting delivery of some garden hardscape materials from Lowes, and the plumbing service can come tomorrow.

If they say the valve is shot, I'll let them replace it, it's not like they are putting in a new heater. If I needed a new heater, I'd go to Lowes and let them install, however this company's policy of free service calls for heaters they installed is a nice plus.

If for some reason they say a number of components are shot (thermostat, valve, God knows what else) and the sum of repairs begins to approach a new heater, I'd just say thanks and then shop around. Last time, in 2003, they put in a 6 year warranty 40 gal Bradford White for $750. Their prices must have gone up because now California requires pezio ignition on all new gas heaters which raised the cost. A gas heater with a 9 year warranty costs $500-600 at Lowes, and their installation cost is $260. So anything comparable from the plumbing service most likely costs >$1000 installed in 2010 prices. However, if it's a $100-150 bill for redoing the valve, and I get 2-3 more years out of the heater, I don't mind the cost, and it's money well spent.

 

[passatdoc]

ps

I had forgotten all about the company's policy of free service calls to check heaters they had installed.

The current heater is the third in 22 years of homeownership. Heater #1 (builder original) lasted six years. Heater number two was installed by a patient who was a licensed plumber but who worked for a company that installed plumbing in new housing tracts. He did plumbing odd jobs on nights and weekends for a limited list of customers. He would buy parts at a plumbing wholesale house and NOT CHARGE A MARK-UP, only his labor costs, so that heater #2, also a Bradford White with a six year warranty, cost only $350 (in 1995). That heater made it to early 2003, when the current Bradford White (#3) was installed. It is now one year past warranty. If it goes another year, it will break the record as the longest-live heater I have ever owned!! I've been told that Bradford White is an "ok" brand (not great but not junk) and this is the first BW I have owned, heater #2 was an off=brand plumbing supply special. No wonder it died young. So I think paying to fix the valve is not good money thrown after bad, if I get at least a few more years out of her.

 

[passatdoc]

oops a typo

My neighborhood is NOT gated. That was a typo. It's not gated but the streets are "private". Translation: we make the traffic rules and maintain the roads, city gets the same taxes without having to pay to maintain our streets!! Someone in an non-HOA home (very rare any more in new construction) gets street maintenance included for the same taxes. Nice, huh?

There was a provision for the community to be gated if the residents wanted it. There are three intersections with the main road that lead into the community. At each intersection, there is a large oval planter that looks like a landscaping feature that divides the road. However, there are conduits leading under the street into the planter. While not in use, they could have been used to bring electrical power to the island in the event we wanted to install electric gates.

I remember being at the earliest HOA meetings where the majority voted NOT to gate. The reason was that we have a golf course on one side of us, so no one would use our neighborhood as a short cut, since all the streets end as cul-de-sacs near the golf course. So there was no "through traffic" to prevent. Further, the perimeters of the community were not fenced, so erecting gates would not deter burglars from entering the area.

 

[toggleswitch]

~35-50 ml of water on the garage floor.

Would most Americans have any idea how much water that is? LOL

I only do becusae I listen to our international friend here on this site.

If a tablesspoon is 15ml, then we are indeed talking about 3 TABLESPOONS OF WATER +/-.

Is it time to panic?

 

[passatdoc]

Well, I am used to NO water on the floor. Because the TPR drain pipe is only a few inches from the heater pan drain pipe, my first thought was that I had a tank leak. The initial puddle was probably a 1/4 cup or more of water.

The 50 ml of water accumulated over night, so it's still dripping where normally it's dry. It MAY be nothing, but I do not have the tech know-how to discern whether it's anything dangerous (like a malfunctioning valve that could lead to bigger issues down the road).

I am comfortable with metric because:

1. I visit Europe once or twice a year, and mostly to see friends, so I am immersed in metric on a household basis (cooking, laundry, etc.)

2. I am an MD and my entire workday is in metric.

 

[polkanut]

If you like Bradford/White heaters fine, but I would suggest looking at other brands too. Our Ruud heater is almost 12yo without any problems to date. (knock on wood) My parents have only their 2nd AO Smith heater in 43 years of living in the same house. The 1st one made it through 20 years of rough use, 3 kids, laundry for 5, at least one dw load daily, plus innumerable showers, etc.