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Goodness!

Ok, first of all - the typical US TL HE washer reigns in even 'hot' to a uselessly low temp. It's not hot, it's barely lukewarm. That's just a fact.

Second, this phosphate hysteria is totally unproductive. Oh, and the treatment plant in our location was filtering out phosphates 30 years ago. I haven't rung them this week, but I rather doubt that's changed.

I love our vintage appliances, I love to work on them and restore them. I also love the way they clean. 

My last washer and dishwasher in Germany were top of the line Miele. I know how well they clean. My friends here in the 'States (and yes, I do have some) all have top of the line American HE TL washers and the very best 'Kitchenaide' dishwashers and they're useless trash which have to be cleaned regularly because they can't even clean themselves. Clothes have to be pre-treated, dishes pre-scrubbed.

That's ridiculous. 

Now, technology advances, thank goodness - but in the final analysis, there's no way a TL HE washer is ever going to do as good a job as an HE FL washer or a vintage Filterflo.

It's simply can't.
 
John,

I've been dealing with people (especially back home in Germany) who insisted I wouldn't be a vegetarian for long (coming up on the fourth decade in a bit) who told me that smoking tobacco was 'natural' and thus not dangerous and tried to make me feel like I was a wet blanket for not drinking (even though I kept a well stocked bar and wine cellar for friends).

 

It's just one of those things - so many of the things we 'know' to be true are really subjective, not objective. Let's not let our disagreements on American HE TLs and American EcoStar Dishwashers come between us in our enjoyment of vintage appliances.

 

And, yes - I am a very stubborn mule. The defenders of Shrub #43 around here found that out back in the early part of this century. I wish, I genuinely wish I'd been wrong on that idiot and the harm he'd do, though.....
 
Worth noting

In all this discussion, I've been referring to HE Top Loading (TL) washers, not front loading.

Hell, I bought my mom a very nice Electrolux FL with heating years ago which has never broken down, heats the water to 45 or 55 or 65 or 75 or 95 and rinses five times. Bought that here in the US. 

But, please - don't try to defend American HE TL washers as paragons of virtue. With the rarest of exceptions - and I noted those (like that H-Axis from Nebraska) they temper the water, even the 'hot' setting down to barely luke warm. Their miserly and very poor rinsing action is incredibly well documented all across the Internet.

 

Oh, a last note: We didn't phase phosphates out of our dishwasher detergents in Germany until a few years ago. That's one reason they worked so very well until, after several years of really poor washing ability, we finally got the current generation of dishwasher detergents which clean quite well.

Sheesh.

 
 
@panthera

A small correction concerning phosphates in European dishwasher detergents. Phosphates will be banned on January 1st 2017. Until then a lot of detergents still contain them like Somat 10

http://www.rossmannversand.de/produkt/373471/somat-multi-10-geschirrspueltabs.aspx

This is the ingredientslist:

Inhaltsstoffe

über 30 % Phosphate, 5-15 % Bleichmittel auf Sauerstoffbasis, Polycarboxylate, nichtionische Tenside, unter 5 % Phosphonate, Enzyme, Duftstoffe

Back to topic. What was it again? lol
 
Louis,

Thanks. It was gone from the stuff  was I buying in Munich in 2013, so I thought it was all gone.

As to the topic, I'm not quite sure anymore. I believe I've fallen into a time warp and am surrounded by mid-1980's Greens from the raised pointy finger era.
 
I'm not a huge fan of HE TL washers

but I do like the FL washers. Hey Logixx. I noticed you said the new duets don't spin between the first/ second rinse on "normal" - this is why I would never use normal.

Also remember that our washers are connected to 110V (I think), not 220.

Even still, my Older Duet gets PLENTY HOT on sanitize and my dishwasher gets super hot too and uses plenty of water and it's less than 2 yrs old.
 
Mark,

You raise a good point - US washers run on 110V.

For decades, European Dishwashers and Washers on the high-end offered the option of running either at 10 or 16 amps (I should say running 'on' those fused circuits) at 220/230/240 Volts or running at 3φ.

Given how widespread 208/220/240 circuits are in laundry rooms in the US, I wonder if we shouldn't make that an option. It would enable real water heating in reasonable time-frames. As Laundress has reminded us many times over the year, you can trade (to some extent) heat for time, water volume for detergent efficacy, agitation for soaking, etc. to achieve the same results. Within limits.

I still can't help but feel all the HE TL problems are insurmountable. If we want to talk about low water and energy use, then TLs in the traditional style just don't come close to good HE FLs. 
 
@ Logixx

I hope that this only happened in the NORMAL cycle and doesn't necessarily happen in other cycles....

Panthera - I guess if someone was desperate they could unplug the dryer, plug the washer into that outlet, and when the washer is done, plug the dryer back in, for a euro washer of course. I've always wondered why only the dryer here can be 220 and not the washer. But whatever..who knows. It probably is all the years of traditional TL washers.....there may have been no need. Maybe now there is? LOL
 
Yes, it was only the Normal cycle that did the 1.5 rinses on its default setting.

As for 240V washers in the US: since dryers can pull up to 5.5 kW of power, I would use that potential for the washer. Since every manufacturer is (once again) talking about smart and connected appliances, I would have the washer communicate with the dryer and delay the start of the drying cycle, until the washer has finished heating and maybe briefly switch the dryer to Air Dry, if the washer needs to reheat. That, or the dryer could run only one element, while the washer heats and add the second one, once heating has finished.
 
logixx

Actually, given that the dryer circuit is usually 30 amps, there shouldn't even be a problem for both to run at the same time.

Of course, the main problem here is not the American housewife - she'd love to have clean clothes like her mother/grandmother did.

It's the stupid government. Worse in a lot of ways than the idiots who threw parties in Erichs Lampenladen....

 
 
The washer can be 240 volts, nothing in the code stops and electrician from bring in an extra 15 or 20amp 240 volt receptacle. However existing installations, and gas dryers, keep 120 volt machines in production.

As for the washer, it has no spin for some odd reason. It is a very, very poorly thought out washer. I am just as surprised as you, if not more. The ropers at least seem to spin before rinsing.
 
You have got to be kidding!!!……That rinse is even worse than the part full rinse! It's nothing more than a spray rinse. Who wants their clothes or bed linens & such full of soap? Not me!
 
I cannot imagine using a washer that simply spray rinses the clothes. That would be completely uneven and many things would never get rinsed. That is also why I bought a front load machine that will at least rinse things properly and up to 3 extra rinses. I have watched it do this and it may not use a lot of water washing or rinsing, but it DOES submerge the clothes and they DO get clean and rinsed, which is much more than I can say for top loaders that spray rinse clothes. It's a shame that the government feels the need to get so involved on conserving water. I think it is fine to suggest what people should do to conserve, but to force manufacturers to make their machines sub standard to do so is just wrong. They are forcing everyone to go to a front loading machine, which is not a bad idea. Much better than a top loader trying to use the same amount of water that a front loader uses, which is impossible.
 
Actually,

a properly set up spray rinse can rinse just as well (if not better) than a normal deep rinse.

The problem is, you'd end up using quite a fair bit more water than the 1/2 teaspoon they throw in now.

This water saving bullshit is just not leading to clean clothes.
 
IIRC a vintage Which? edition posted here on AW found every FL better at rinsing than spray rinsing in a twintub. Even those terrible low end spin-pump Indesits where the pump was driven by the main motor did better.
Makes sense to me because fibers don`t get flexed much in a spray rinse. Just think of tie-dyeing.
On the other hand I think an additional spray in a traditional TL is absolutely beneficial.
 
 
My two "vintage" Fisher & Paykel toploaders have a shower-rinse option.  Their spray flume is designed for it.  Saturation showers at 25 RPM and 670 RPM extractions thoroughly soak and flush the load, followed by 1,010 RPM final spin.  It's very effective for rinsing, although not recommended for loads that have particulate debris (sand, sawdust, pet hair).
 
You know...

Look at what works Jerome. There is a reason why commercial, institutional and government are granted so many exceptions to the law. For example:



https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-85/subpart-R

Commercial machines have to respect a business which counts on no nonsense customer satisfaction, while residential simply seeks to secure a transaction through marketing psychology. And government has to work, period, as that is their duty.

Using my Sharp microwave I am finally grasping the reality that machines outside of residential simply work faster, perform their task better, last longer and are made to be repaired.
 

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