filterflo702
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Is it really that a big a deal to not use HE detergent in a front loader? I have noticed they give less uses and are higher priced than the regular.
HE detergents
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bpetersxx
Well-known member
It might not be since I am trying regular ALL laundry detergent in the blue bottle in my FL
I hate HE detergents. To me they are just more watered-down.
I have no porblems with regular--in the right (small) dosages!
I am guessing the detergent manufacturing industry is freaking-out as everyone will eventually be cuting their usage by what? 75% per load as front-loaders permeate the market.
I have no porblems with regular--in the right (small) dosages!
I am guessing the detergent manufacturing industry is freaking-out as everyone will eventually be cuting their usage by what? 75% per load as front-loaders permeate the market.
Only thing a detergent for "HE" machines must be is low sudsing/clean rinsing.
There are several detergents out there that meet this requirement, Fresh Start, FAB and Ajax seem to be highly rated for being low sudsing.
Many low sudsing degergents add some type of chemical (soap, silicone oil, fish oil, oil....) to help control suds. Have found adding a tiny amount of Fels soap powder helps control sudsing when using Cheer Free & Gentle powder, but still have watch dosage.
Tide HE which is supposed to be low sudsing, creates tons of froth if one is not very careful, as will Wisk HE and most of the other American "HE" detergents.
At the moment am using a detergent from Ecolab, which is really nothing more than STPP,surfactants,washing soda, and tiny amounts of other stuff. It is highly concentrated and when properly dosed makes little to no suds, rinses clean (by second rinse at that), and cleans VERY well. Ecolab promotes the detergent for linen laundries found in hotels, motels, sports clubs etc. Apparently it is designed to clean greasy/oily dirt very well, which it does. Have to watch the dosage as if one is too generous not only does rinsing become difficult, the scent will NOT rinse away.
It really is a shame the United States does not have the huge variety of "HE" detergents found across the pond. Persil is a good detergent (though not the holy grail some on THS would have one believe), but it cost so dear. Persil is "Tide" in Germany and costs no more than what we pay for that product here.
Have noticed all the new "All Small & Mighty" detergent bottles sport "HE Approved" on the label. One scent smells wonderful, IIRC it is the one in the white bottle. May have to sneak yet another detergent into my stash.
Launderess
There are several detergents out there that meet this requirement, Fresh Start, FAB and Ajax seem to be highly rated for being low sudsing.
Many low sudsing degergents add some type of chemical (soap, silicone oil, fish oil, oil....) to help control suds. Have found adding a tiny amount of Fels soap powder helps control sudsing when using Cheer Free & Gentle powder, but still have watch dosage.
Tide HE which is supposed to be low sudsing, creates tons of froth if one is not very careful, as will Wisk HE and most of the other American "HE" detergents.
At the moment am using a detergent from Ecolab, which is really nothing more than STPP,surfactants,washing soda, and tiny amounts of other stuff. It is highly concentrated and when properly dosed makes little to no suds, rinses clean (by second rinse at that), and cleans VERY well. Ecolab promotes the detergent for linen laundries found in hotels, motels, sports clubs etc. Apparently it is designed to clean greasy/oily dirt very well, which it does. Have to watch the dosage as if one is too generous not only does rinsing become difficult, the scent will NOT rinse away.
It really is a shame the United States does not have the huge variety of "HE" detergents found across the pond. Persil is a good detergent (though not the holy grail some on THS would have one believe), but it cost so dear. Persil is "Tide" in Germany and costs no more than what we pay for that product here.
Have noticed all the new "All Small & Mighty" detergent bottles sport "HE Approved" on the label. One scent smells wonderful, IIRC it is the one in the white bottle. May have to sneak yet another detergent into my stash.
Launderess
Supposedly HE detergents also contain dye transfer inhibitors to help prevent bleeding of color from one garment to the next - which is more likely in the smaller pool of water in a front loader. However, I find that STPP seems to do a good enough job of sequestering stray dye and I don't find dye transfer to be a problem when I cut Sears HE powder with STPP. I don't think that regular detergents contain much, if any, dye transfer inhibitor. HE detergents generally are "ultra" or concentrated, with little or no sodium sulfate filler, so that they can be used to full strength in the tiny detergent dispensers of most front loaders.
And, by the way, powders are more alkaline and agressive than liquids and will generally clean heavily soiled laundry better.
And, by the way, powders are more alkaline and agressive than liquids and will generally clean heavily soiled laundry better.
If you have Target stores, they have Tide on sale regularly. If you have access to the Sunday papers, they often have $1.00 off coupons for Tide. When Tide goes on sale at Target, it is usually $5.00 a box no matter what flavor. If your Target does not sell powder Tide HE, tell them that you would like them to stock it. I don't know what type of FL you use, but my machines take between 1 to 2 tablespoons of Tide HE along with some STPP and a Tide box lasts for months. If this is not economical enough, you can mix Tide HE and regular Tide up to half and half and the HE will keep the suds down, unless you are heating the wash to high temps. If you do that, only use HE and STPP if you use it, because higher temps bring out higher suds.
angus
Well-known member
Cimberlie - interesting comment on the All Small & Mighty. Recently, I spoke with Lever's Consumer representatives about the sudsing of All and Surf Products. What they told me was that regular All liquids are low sudsing, and that the HE version is no suds. However, with the exception of the HE version, the small & mighty liquids are "regular" sudsing. Seems kind of odd to me... Which was the one whose scent you liked? If it was the white bottle, isn't that one the "free/clear" version? I occasionally use ALL, but I find that while good for general laundry and freshening, it just doesn't do well on really heavy soils or stains - I guess the stainlifters are asleep at the switch.
Surf (now ALL) liquids are regular sudsing
If you can Fab Spring Magic liquid, the scent is pleasant but not overpowering and it is indeed low sudsing. MAy be hard to come by now that Colgate no longer owns its detergent business. But WalMart has had the 100 ounce size for $2.96
I still think we would all be better off if all detergents were regulated sudsing....then no need for the HE marketing crap - after all it was the manufacturers themselves who allowed folks to believe for years that you needed tons of suds to get clothes clean. With the amount of $$$$$$$ P&G spends advertising Tide annually, they could have some impact in that area. After all they managed to convince us all that we cannot live without 15 different versions of liquid and powder Tide......
Surf (now ALL) liquids are regular sudsing
If you can Fab Spring Magic liquid, the scent is pleasant but not overpowering and it is indeed low sudsing. MAy be hard to come by now that Colgate no longer owns its detergent business. But WalMart has had the 100 ounce size for $2.96
I still think we would all be better off if all detergents were regulated sudsing....then no need for the HE marketing crap - after all it was the manufacturers themselves who allowed folks to believe for years that you needed tons of suds to get clothes clean. With the amount of $$$$$$$ P&G spends advertising Tide annually, they could have some impact in that area. After all they managed to convince us all that we cannot live without 15 different versions of liquid and powder Tide......
westyslantfront
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I have used Tide HE liquid and it is ok but Tide HE powder makes as much suds as Mexican detergents that I use.
filterflo702
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Which brings me to the next question
Hey you guys, thanks for all the advice. Wow Laundress, you have a Ph.D. in clothes care!
Hey Pete-On my last trip to the closeout store, they had a huge sign advertising All 100 oz liquid for $3.49. For some reason I thought this was a huge savings and cleared off the shelf! When I went to the regular market, I found the same All for $3.99! Big deal, a .50 cent savings. Glad to hear you are using it in your FL. It is one of my fav detergents. Doesn't smell too flowery.
Question for you Toggle- What line do you fill up to? I have been filling the cap to line 1, which All says is for "everyday light loads". I'm not sure what that is. But I used to fill to line 3 in my TL, and the FL claims to use 1/3 less water, so I figured 1/3 of the amount of detergent as well?
Hey you guys, thanks for all the advice. Wow Laundress, you have a Ph.D. in clothes care!
Hey Pete-On my last trip to the closeout store, they had a huge sign advertising All 100 oz liquid for $3.49. For some reason I thought this was a huge savings and cleared off the shelf! When I went to the regular market, I found the same All for $3.99! Big deal, a .50 cent savings. Glad to hear you are using it in your FL. It is one of my fav detergents. Doesn't smell too flowery.
Question for you Toggle- What line do you fill up to? I have been filling the cap to line 1, which All says is for "everyday light loads". I'm not sure what that is. But I used to fill to line 3 in my TL, and the FL claims to use 1/3 less water, so I figured 1/3 of the amount of detergent as well?
I have never used USA HE detergents. I was a big fan of the original ALL and Dash, but since they don't make them like they used to, I use Mexican and UK detergents. I do have a bottle of original blue ALL S&M to try, it's ok, very low sudsing but sure is LOUD.
I used regular detergents in FL'ers until HE varieties became available here in the rural upper midwest several years back. I used Tide HE mostly, but kept bottles of Cheer HE and Gain HE for lightly soiled loads, just to change things up a bit.
Now I'm using a non-HE detergent again. I have no more of a suds-in-the-rinse-water than I did using HE's.
CR claims HE machines clean better using HE detergents. They use medium-hard water in their tests. Mine is uber-soft, so maybe that narrows the difference between the two types of detergents.
Now I'm using a non-HE detergent again. I have no more of a suds-in-the-rinse-water than I did using HE's.
CR claims HE machines clean better using HE detergents. They use medium-hard water in their tests. Mine is uber-soft, so maybe that narrows the difference between the two types of detergents.
Especially in areas with hard water and when using a washer with a built in heater it's important to use enough detergent or a combination of detergent and water softeners to soften the water. Otherwise a calcium build up might occur on the heating element. The heating element will get less efficient and in the end might burn through. Most HE detergents have a well balanced combination of cleaning agents and water softeners.
ALL HE is 'no sudsing'? Gee, I wonder what that white frothy stuff was in my FL'er when I used it?
Good point, Louis.
magic clean
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rayjay
Well-known member
He Detergents
Isn't is amazing the so called "HE" detergents. The manufacturers make it sound like it is a new "wonder". Well, what was Dash, AD and All called from the 50's and 60's? It was "low sudsing". What a thought. And...there were truly low sudsing. I do not know why they stopped making them. We always used them in our Top Loading Automatics with great results. I guess most Americans want lots of 'suds'. Just a rant of mine.
Anyone else have their thoughts on this?
Thanks, Ray
Isn't is amazing the so called "HE" detergents. The manufacturers make it sound like it is a new "wonder". Well, what was Dash, AD and All called from the 50's and 60's? It was "low sudsing". What a thought. And...there were truly low sudsing. I do not know why they stopped making them. We always used them in our Top Loading Automatics with great results. I guess most Americans want lots of 'suds'. Just a rant of mine.
Anyone else have their thoughts on this?
Thanks, Ray
bingwsguy
Well-known member
rayjay.....
I think you are right about a lot of people thinking "lots of suds" means "lots of clean". I was one of them, actually, until I bought an ASKO washer back in the 90's and they recommended washing the first load of each set of clothes with no detergent because there would be enough residual detergent in them to clean the whole load....and they were right. My Grandmother still swears by ALL and she is the "Queen of Clean".
Any low suds detergent seems to work fine in my front loader.
I think you are right about a lot of people thinking "lots of suds" means "lots of clean". I was one of them, actually, until I bought an ASKO washer back in the 90's and they recommended washing the first load of each set of clothes with no detergent because there would be enough residual detergent in them to clean the whole load....and they were right. My Grandmother still swears by ALL and she is the "Queen of Clean".
Any low suds detergent seems to work fine in my front loader.I found the HE detergents to be nothing more than a *rip-off*. They are over priced and make just as much suds as the regular versions (in my opinion).
For F/L machines I love FAB (almost always about $2.50 a box!) and It comes in three great flavors.
ALSO, Costco *Institutional* Detergent in the 32 lb. pail.(About $10.50) Use as much of it as you want----unless you have VERY soft water, it hardly makes any suds at all, rinses out so well even the citrus scent is gone!
Georgedon tried the new concentrated ALL in the little bottle. It oversudsed his Westy bad enough for him to stop using it.
For F/L machines I love FAB (almost always about $2.50 a box!) and It comes in three great flavors.
ALSO, Costco *Institutional* Detergent in the 32 lb. pail.(About $10.50) Use as much of it as you want----unless you have VERY soft water, it hardly makes any suds at all, rinses out so well even the citrus scent is gone!
Georgedon tried the new concentrated ALL in the little bottle. It oversudsed his Westy bad enough for him to stop using it.
I and other folks over at THS have done semi-scientific studies of the sudsing parameters of various detergents, both HE and regular.
In general the HE detergents suds far less than the regular types. There are always exceptions, of course. Most recently, I found the Costco Kirkland "HE Compatible" powder and liquid to be relatively high sudsing. I don't know where they got the "compatible" idea, but I don't think it's a particularly good one. But for a while they did have a perfume and dye-free liquid version, which was a nice touch.
As Louis pointed out, using reduced amounts of regular detergents, to control sudsing, may result in insufficient amounts of water softeners being used, which could even damage the washer as well as result in inferior cleaning.
I generally add STPP as an additional non-precipitating water softener to various non-phosphate HE powders. In one semi-scientific test, it appeared that adding STPP without reducing the amount of an HE powder actually resulted in less sudsing. This may not be too surprising as modern surfactants are relatively resistant to hard water minerals, so the water softening action of STPP might not have any benefit in increasing surfactant activity. But it sure does help break soil from fabric and hold it in suspension so it can be rinsed away.
I have tried a variety of detergents in the search of one that will leave bath towels the softest. My favorite is Method HE liquid. Used at full dosage it doesn't oversuds and leaves the softest result. Real-life testing here is a bit complicated because the water hardness varies seasonally and also with how much rain/snow our state receives in the winter. Generally it's softest out of the tap this time of year, and hardest at the end of the summer into the fall. Let's say it can vary between 2 grains now to 5 grains in late summer. Never seen it extremeley hard. However, I have also found that the level of soiling on the laundry makes a very big difference in how much detergent is needed for my front loader to get it clean, moreso than in a top loader. So proper dosing becomes something of an art - a bit more mysterious since Maytag opted to omit the view port on its Neptune line.
I haven't noticed that HE detergents are any more expensive around here than regular. My main HE detergent is Sears Ultra Plus. I just picked up two huge 20 lb boxes at Sears for $10 each. Each one does 180 loads, so that works out to less than six cents a load. In my mind, that is a bargain, not a rip-off.
In general the HE detergents suds far less than the regular types. There are always exceptions, of course. Most recently, I found the Costco Kirkland "HE Compatible" powder and liquid to be relatively high sudsing. I don't know where they got the "compatible" idea, but I don't think it's a particularly good one. But for a while they did have a perfume and dye-free liquid version, which was a nice touch.
As Louis pointed out, using reduced amounts of regular detergents, to control sudsing, may result in insufficient amounts of water softeners being used, which could even damage the washer as well as result in inferior cleaning.
I generally add STPP as an additional non-precipitating water softener to various non-phosphate HE powders. In one semi-scientific test, it appeared that adding STPP without reducing the amount of an HE powder actually resulted in less sudsing. This may not be too surprising as modern surfactants are relatively resistant to hard water minerals, so the water softening action of STPP might not have any benefit in increasing surfactant activity. But it sure does help break soil from fabric and hold it in suspension so it can be rinsed away.
I have tried a variety of detergents in the search of one that will leave bath towels the softest. My favorite is Method HE liquid. Used at full dosage it doesn't oversuds and leaves the softest result. Real-life testing here is a bit complicated because the water hardness varies seasonally and also with how much rain/snow our state receives in the winter. Generally it's softest out of the tap this time of year, and hardest at the end of the summer into the fall. Let's say it can vary between 2 grains now to 5 grains in late summer. Never seen it extremeley hard. However, I have also found that the level of soiling on the laundry makes a very big difference in how much detergent is needed for my front loader to get it clean, moreso than in a top loader. So proper dosing becomes something of an art - a bit more mysterious since Maytag opted to omit the view port on its Neptune line.
I haven't noticed that HE detergents are any more expensive around here than regular. My main HE detergent is Sears Ultra Plus. I just picked up two huge 20 lb boxes at Sears for $10 each. Each one does 180 loads, so that works out to less than six cents a load. In my mind, that is a bargain, not a rip-off.
