Heat Pumps - Why they are already a wise investment

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In my location, I still believe natural gas is still the cheapest and most effective way to heat a home. Sure, in areas without natural gas service, heat pumps/split/whatever make sense.

And they also could make economic sense if one's home is equipped with solar power panels.

The point about insulation is spot on.

When I bought this house in 1997, it had poor insulation. I noticed that first winter that the forced air central heating system would run for hours continuously on cold evenings.

That spring I went out and corrected a number of deficiencies:

1) Insulated between the ceiling rafters in the attic (1 story home) with about R-25 or more. Previously there was zero insulation up there.

2) Sealed off many air leaks between living areas and the attic. I was kind of surprised at how many there were.

3) Renewed the felt strips on the sliding aluminum windows. They used to rattle on windy days, no doubt letting warm air out and cold air in. Now they are quiet. Yes, I know, double pane insulated windows are even better, but I don't think the cost is justified. This is because outside of air leaks, windows comprise a small fraction of the living space envelope.

4) Insulated the heating and return air ductwork under the house.

Once I had done 1-4, the next winter (and to this day), even on cold nights the furnace comes on for maybe five or ten minutes per hour max on cold nights. And the heating bill for gas service was slashed at least in half.

Also in order to prevent moisture build-up in the attic (there was some sign of black mold on some of the roof rafters), I installed soffit vents all around the structure. This probably didn't affect energy consumption but no doubt helped the structure resist moisture issues.

5) The next year I went in and insulated under most of the first floor, over the crawl space.

My preferred insulation material was Miraflex - a type of fiberglass that resembles polyester fiber fill and doesn't shed nearly as much of the itchy glass fibers that regular fiberglass does, nor does it contain the formaldehyde that regular fiberglass bats may have. Unfortunately Owens-Corning has since discontinued the product :-( ... But I got enough of it to address all of the attic and most of the flooring.

(Note: some web sites state that Owens-Corning didn't discontinue Miraflex, but that Home Depot only stopped carrying it. This doesn't seem to be true. I just visited the Owens-Corning website and searched for Miraflex and came up with no results. I have no idea why it is no longer being made.)
 
Consumer Reports chimes in....

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/heat-pump-water-heater-value.html

For those of us who've never heard of much less seen a hybrid water heater this Old House to the rescue.



In our area electricty cost far more than oil or gas, thus few will use it for water heating or any other major means of generating same if they can help it. That is unless it can be made to work out to be cheaper.
 
Banned

Refrigeration and refrigerants usually don't have immediate bans since these equipment is a major investment.

Repairs on commercial equipment is very common.

Thus usually they first ban the selling of any new equipment using a refrigerant before banning the production/import of that refrigerant.

So that 10 year difference might be exactly that.
First they banned the new equipment.
About 10 years later the refrigerant itself.

Over here they banned R134a in car ACs recently, but only for new cars.

That refrigerant is being fased out for any appliances as well in the coming years AFAIK.

Many new fridges and such already use R290a.

And yes heat pumps have been around a long time.

Thing is that up until recently, they made not that much sense.

They weren't terribly efficient with mid-late 1900s technology, weren't any cheaper or considered "greener".
So they were a rarer investment.
 
"Avoiding any of the nonsense which always pops up when you discuss energy saving appliances..."

I guess by "nonsense" it implies those pesky mean laws that ban toxic chemicals that are ruining the ozone layer?

We don't really need an ozone layer, do we? Future generations don't even want Ozone. No.

Baseboard and flat-panel electric heaters don't have toxic volatile gasses that will eventually escape and/or need replacement.

One does not have to have a license to install or plug in a baseboard electric heater
unlike a refrigeration guy that has all those expensive tools, gauges, and bottles of explosive gas to carry around.
 
bradfordwhite, your post is a perfect example of what I was referring to. <span style="font-size: 12pt;">I come here to look at what makes things work, and how to keep them going; as do quite a few others. Your post c</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">ontributes nothing and serves only to incite negativity. I refer to this sort of chaff as "nonsense."  I hope this answers your question.</span>

 

 
 
Heat pumps have always made sense since their inception

In 1955 my aunt Margaret’s parents built an all new all electric home in Illinois.

The Home featured a ground source heat pump system.

The house was very well insulated on a small farm it had an electric range and electric KitchenAid dishwasher and a Bendix washer dryer combination and all the other modern conveniences of the day, and the annual electric bill was between 95 and 105 dollars yes that was the cost for an entire year of electricity. Until the 1970s when prices of electricity started to go up.

I remember the first year when he complained that it cost over $200 around the late 70s to operate this household for an entire year LOL

Heat pumps have always made sense because you’re just moving heat around not creating it. Heat pumps will be the predominant heating and cooling system the world over if it isn’t already very soon.

John
 
Heat pump

Yes, a Heat Pump, does not involve "creating" heat, as John and others have said but simply re-locating pre-existing heat from one area to another.

Heat is the flow of thermal energy from one body to another. Thermodynamics state that heat must flow from a warmer object to a cooler object. In the Winter, heat wants to flow OUT of your house to the colder outside air. A heat pump supplies just enough energy to move natural, pre-existing heat, contained in the outside air into your home.

When it is, say zero degrees F, it doesn't seem as if there is much heat out there. BUT...

Absolute zero, which is almost -460 F, is the coldest temperature that can exist in our Universe.

So when it is 0 degrees F outside, we still have 460 degrees of heat available in the air. More than enough to boil water! Your heat pump just uses enough energy to move some of this heat from the outdoors into your home.

From reading the postings here, and talking to others, it seems that people either hate or love Heat Pumps. Those who have never had one develop their opinions based on which of the two groups of people they have talked to, not from personal experience.

I have found that those who hate Heat Pumps, and have actually had one, are victims of improper installation, a low quality/less efficient unit, or improper operation due to ignorance. ("Ignorance" not meaning to be an insult, but meaning "not educated" or "not knowledgeable" of proper operation.)

Like the garbage disposal, the heat pump is laden with Old Wive's Tales of misinformation.

Many HVAC dealers do not take the time or money to properly install a central Heat Pump. Heat pumps are a different animal and operate by moving large quantities of air for longer times--since the temperature differential between air going into a heat pump and coming out is less than say from a fossil fuel furnace, such as a gas or oil-fired furnace.

Larger ducts must be used, and larger registers. Conventual heating systems often use the typical 4 by 10 floor registers, heat pumps must have a minimum of 4 by 12 inch registers or larger for most room sizes.

Builders are probably the number one source of Heat Pump irritation. They often use the lowest quality/efficiency unit they can find. They often do not properly size ducts, nor registers and rarely strategically place registers and cold air return intake vents. The result--an unhappy homeowner. don't blame the heat pump, blame the lazy and greedy builder.

I have read comments about a heat pump running "all the time." Actually, that is normal and that is the way they are designed. Near the balance point a heat pump should be running continuously or near continuously....moving large amounts of air with low temperature differentials. The air is not supposed to necessarily be hot such as from a gas furnace. However, in mild weather, yes, heat pump air can be hot enough to nearly burn your hand on a register if you leave it on there.

As outside temperature goes down, so does the the temperature of the air exiting from your Heat Pump air handler. To compensate, the heat pump runs longer. When in perfect balance, heat loss from your home equals heat gain from your Heat Pump, your heat pump will be running continuously. It is supposed to. When continuous running cannot balance the temperature, then the auxiliary heating will come on sporadically to add heat energy to the air. (This auxiliary hear is often electric, but doesn't have to be. It could be gas, etc.)

For simplicity, I am talking about an "air source" heat pump. Not geothermal. Air-source meaning it is pulling heat out of the Winter air.

A house with leaking windows, or under-insulated can change the balance point to occurring at a higher outdoor temperature. A super-insulated house or very well constructed house can lower the balance point tremendously. The more efficient the heat pump, the lower the outdoor air temperature is at which the balance point is reached.

Heat pumps are now most often listed with SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating). Such as 11, 14, etc.

Less often seen is the COP, Coefficient of Performance. This is the ratio of energy put into to the system compared to the heat energy put out by your Heat Pump. For example, a COP of 3.0 for your heat pump, means that at a given outdoor temperature, for every unit of energy you put into your heat pump, you get three units of heat energy out.

I don't recall the COP, exactly, of straight electric resistance heat but it is quite high around 99.7 or something in that vicinity. So, for every unit of energy you put in, you get almost one unit of heat energy out. Little is lost due to efficiency.

With a heat pump, manufacture's rate at two typical outdoor temperatures, one of them is 17 degrees F. So a COP for a residential heat pump might be, for example, 2.3 at 17 degrees F. Meaning at this outdoor temperature, for every unit of energy you put in you will get 2.3 units of heat energy out. Many residential heat pumps retain COP's greater than one into the single digits or even below zero.

That is why Heat Pumps are ecologically such sound ways to heat your home.

Often, I find people do not understand that most heat pump thermostats are programed to kick in the auxiliary heat if you turn them up 2 degrees or more at a given time. If you have an "Aux Heat" indicator light you will see it come on. The thermostat thinks you are cold and want heat fast, so the aux heat will speed up your getting the house warm.

Of course, you just dumped money down the drain when you utilize you auxiliary heat because you may be creating heat with a COP of nearly one, when you could have been using the heat pump to move heat with a COP of, let's say 3 or 3.5 or more.

Unless you are shivering in your boots, it is best to never turn a heat pump up more than one degree at a time. If you are still wanting a higher room temperature, wait until the room comes up to temp, then turn up the thermostat another degree.

If you turn your thermostat down at night, most modern programmable heat pump thermostats will compute at what time in the morning to start heating the house, using the auxiliary heat as little as possible, to get it up to temperature at your waking time.

Oddly, many of the newer thermostats do not have the Axillary Heat indicator light. Some have none, and some show a small icon or word that one may easily overlooked.

Thinking back, and adding up, I have had five homes/apartments with Heat Pumps. My current home is my fifth house equipped with an air source heat pump. I love them. If you understand them, know what to expect, and how to use them, they can save you a lot of money.

You are not burning any fossil fuel (it's much more efficient, and cleaner for your electrical utility to burn fossils fuels, centrally, that it is for each separate house to do so). There is no danger of gas leakage, carbon monoxide, or explosions.

A Heat Pump, as mentioned, is a different kind of animal. You can't expect a cougar to act like a wolf. They are different creatures but each has its own beauties.

A Heat Pump is not a gas fired furnace, nor is it a coal unit, nor an oil fired unit. So quit thinking it should act like one.

A heat pump will run near continuously or continuously in very cold weather, it is not going to give toasty feeling air out of the register at very cold temps, and you have to have the knowledge to know how to operate the thermostat so as to not kick in the auxiliary heat.

The continuous air is a good thing, it means continuously filtered and circulated air. The lower register air temps (in very cold weather) means the moving air is not as drying to the skin and you get greater temperature uniformity around the house as you do not have zones of blasting hot heat near the registers.

Heat pumps aren't for everyone, but if you want greater efficiency using natures heat, you like greater temperature uniformity in your house and cleaner air then you probably will become best friends with your Heat Pump should you decide to get one. :)

[this post was last edited: 3/13/2021-11:46]
 
Barry, thank you for taking the time to provide such an excellent, detailed explanation.

As I've stated a few times previously, I knew my builders grade HP was not good compared to one my parents had in their vacation home. And thanks to John L (Combo52) for providing me with information at the 2002 wash-in that when times comes for me to replace my heat pump, to get one with a variable speed air handler and multi-speed compressor. Which I did and experience was like night & day difference.
 
turbokinetic

No one's preventing you from learning. Everyone, including myself, have presented quality ideas.

Life is full of ideas and concepts. Some work better than others. Some are better fitted to certain situations.

It sounds more like you're only looking for a monotone choir to preach the joys of something.
Starting a thread requesting that "only those who want to speak positively about xxxxxx...." would be suggested. Or would that be too blatantly exclusionary?
It's not presenting reality but people do it.
 
#24

heat pump water heaters, especially if installed inside a house are a terrible idea.

They make loud noise vs. total or near quiet of electric and the soft burning sound of a standing pilot water heater when it's heating.

What's worse is (unless they've changed how these are made), they aren't vented to the outdoors which means the cold air they are creating when running is being dumped inside your home. That might be fine for summer but if it's winter you don't want something adding yet MORE cool air when you are trying to heat the air.

These are ridiculously expensive and because they have all these moving parts it's going to require expensive repairs and certainly won't last long.

My Aunt and Uncle built a new house in 72 with a standard 40 gallon electric water heater. They sold the house in 99. She admitted they were lucky because it lasted all that time without them doing anything to it.
The only maintenance an electric water heater needs is to occasionally drain water off the bottom. She stated they never did that. lol. And it lasted all those years.

----

Remember- Not encumbering one's self with complicated possessions and obligations is one of the most complicated but rewarding things a smart person can do.

You can always tell the true intelligence of a person by the lack of liabilities they have around their neck.

bradfordwhite-2021031315501500900_1.png
 
@ reply28... John; my house in Alabama has an 80's vintage heat pump system. It's not fancy. A Goodman with Copland recip compressor.  It's air source and works fine in our climate here.  When I lived with my parents, I had thought about building a lake-source system since they live on a lake which would be much warmer than the air during winter. 

 

It would have been interesting to see how the energy use of the pump to bring lake water to the heat exchanger would be offset by the warmer heat source.  It would seem to me, that the biggest savings would be during the summer air conditioning season, with cooler condenser temps due to the lake water. 

I had considered building something similar to a "keel cooler" and routing the refrigerant from the unit to the lake, to eliminate the need for a pump. That would have been costly for many reasons due to the distance from the house to the lake.
 
What's worse is they aren't vented to the outdoors

Are you kidding?

I have NEVER seen a heat pump water heater indoors.

They are extremely common in Australia, since at least the 1980s.

They are always installed outdoors if they are an all-in-one unit.

There are a couple of split system ones, where the tank can be mounted indoors but the compressor/condenser/fan unit is outdoors. Siddons used to be made with flat-plate condensers that mounted flat on the roof, so they got direct solar gain as a bonus, but these aren't made any more.

https://renew.org.au/resources/how-.../how-we-can-help-heat-pump-hot-water-systems/
 
I've been following this thread with interest, but I must say I was pretty flabbergasted that there would be such a thing like a heat pump water heater with an indoor heat pump. Never heard of that!

Overhere in the NL we have combined systems, water heater and heating system in one. Now try that with an indoor heat pump! lol
 
Heat Pump Water Heaters

Are Wonderful Energy Savers and for homes in the US without Natural Gas are one of the biggest money and energy savers available at a reasonable cost to the home owner.

 

US HPWHs are all installed indoors, the compressor in integrated on top of a 50 gallon water heater.

 

Having lived with one and the many friends I have with them every body I have talked to about them loved them.

 

The many advantages of having the entire unit indoors is the unit assists in cooling and dehumidifying in warmer months which is over 1/2 the year in most of the US.

 

Noise levels are very low, usually less than a dehumidifier. 

 

The power consumption is around 1,200 watts compared to 4,500 for a typical US electric heater. They need to be in an area with ventilation [ not a tiny tight closet ] If the ambient temperature goes much below 50F it may revert to resistance heating.

 

From talking to people with HPWHs you usually save $20 a month for a single person living in a house, most people in the US are entitled to a Federal tax credit of $500, state and unity credits in addition often bring the cost down below $500 installed or about the same as a cheap electric water heater.

 

All major water heater makers are selling lots of these in the US, the department banned sales of residential WHs over 50 gallons except for HPWHS several years ago.

 

John L.
 
I was really drooling over the potential of replacing my Whirlpool Energy Smart HWH with a Hybrid Water Heater but my water heater is located in raised closet in the garage next to the air handler for my HVAC, so no go. At least Rheem/Ruud offers a water heater with similar concept as my current water heater--"intelligently" maintaining reserve temperature based upon usage patterns and will maintain at a lower temperature but then increase to set point when demand requires it. The Rheem also has an app whereby you can control the temperature from your phone, which would be helpful if I ended up with having a SQ front loader and could increase temperature from what I currently keep at (120-125) and increase the temp to 140 or 145 when I have to do a "sanitize" wash since it doesn't have an onboard heater.
 
Want to boost water temps for your washer.

Try a compact 2 1/2, 4, or 6 gallon 120 volt water heater with a 30 minute switch.

Before you're going to do laundry simply turn on the switch and let it heat the water to 150 degrees.

Connect the washing machine hose directly to the water heater and connect the water heater inlet hose to the hot water faucet.

It only uses electric for that short period of time.

Very efficient and no noise pollution.

Affordable and easy to install.

bradfordwhite-2021031410514205871_1.png

bradfordwhite-2021031410514205871_2.png
 

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