Help organize Sarah’s mid century kitchen

[114jwh]

Hi Sarah

Really love your ideas for a retro kitchen!

I'd be hesitant though on having the dishwasher and ovens within a walk-through space. If you think about it, a 32" space isn't a lot of room and when you have the dishwasher or oven open, its going to block access through this walkway. Loading or unloading the dishwasher or cleaning the oven requires them to be open for longer periods of time.

Maybe I'm visualizing this wrong though? Is it 32" with the dishwasher fully open or closed?

I really love the idea of a red countertop but I know what you mean though. Had you thought about maybe doing a grey countertop, like the grey cracked ice and then a different color with the floor using the VCT. Like a cream color with red accent VCT tiles here and there?

 

[combo52]

Kitchen Design

Hi Sarah, I would leave the combo in line with the sink as it is much easier to hook up, it is also less noisy on an outside wal;.

 

You only need  a 24" wide cabinet for the FD wall oven, although if you want to use a 27" wide cabinet you can change out the FD when it becomes unserviceable and put in a vintage GE P-7 double oven.

 

I love the idea of coral-orange over red.

 

John L.

 

[vacbear58]

Updates

Hi again Sarah,

Its certainly coming on, but I would like to suggest a couple more tweaks to your design.

I would be concerned about the placement of your cook top for a few reasons:
Firstly its a long way from the sink for draining pans.
Secondly, does the door to the right of the GE wall fridge form a thoroughfare through to other parts of the house via either of the doors by the Americana? If so, the placement could be dangerous if you are carrying hot pans across the kitchen and someone is rushing through.
Third, if the wall behind the current position is an internal wall you are going to have to have one heck of a long duct from the hood to the outside.
And finally I am thinking of your poor feet as you have to go back and forth while preparing a meal.

Fortunately I think the solution is simple:

Swap the positions of the fridge and the cooktop - if I recall correctly you had the cooktop there before. Actually, it will be quite easy to do as your base under the cook top is 33" and you have two cabinets under the fridge one of 18" and one of 15". If you place the 15" next to the 30" base you should have three doors of the same size which will help the look of it all. i would suggest it might be best to arrange them from the door 18" 30" and 15" (the arrangement of these two depending on whether the 15" door hinges on the left or the right) and then on to the corner cabinet.

The cooktop and base will fit right in where the two cabinets come out and I think you will be able to use the 30" wall cabinet to the left of the hood - this will avoid the need for a filler piece although you may still choose to use a smaller one to help align the cabinets wall and base - as I read it the wall space to fill is 69" (64" fridge + 5" filler) which are being replaced by a combined length of 66" - it will also work a lot better with the wall quadrant you want at the end of the run.

The fridge can then go on the wall where you are currently showing the cooker hood but in this case you do not need a filler although you might choose to have one so the left edge of the fridge aligns with the left of the base cabinet.

I would strongly agree with John L that the combo is should NOT be in the peninsula. Aside from his comments, it would be unwise to "fix" a layout with an appliance you have no means of knowing how long will last. Much better, if you have one, would be to replace it with a 30" cabinet (or even slightly smaller which would help address the issue someone mentioned above regarding the clearance for the dishwasher door) - and of course - more storage! If you agree with this I think you should revisit the idea of having a small sink by the ice machine, which I think you had in an earlier iteration. This will make the area under the fridge much more useful as a secondary preparation area and indeed with the likes of an electric frypan or portable hot plate (dare I say induction) which can be put away after use it could be a complete second cooking centre. Indeed, now I think of it, you could even have something like a classic GE wall oven mounted under the counter instead of a cabinet (which is a very common practice in modern kitchens) would would make a wonderful baking centre. Well food for thought at least.

I think the space to the left of your oven has a window and I think you mentioned putting a love seat or something of the kind there. I would suggest that would be a good space for the combo so that you have the flexibility to replace that at some time in the future with an alternative. Note that if you have a suspended floor you will need some reinforcement under the combo to help deal with the vibrations as it spins - it will need to be a great deal less by a wall (where the joists under the floor are supported) than right in the centre of the room - a thickish piece of waterproof ply under the combo should be sufficient. Finish off with a smaller chair or even a stool that has a back on it. I cannot tell the scale but there might be space for a shallow shelf at counter top height which, combined with a stool could make a small nook for writing lists or, if its not heresy in this kitchen, using a lap top or tablet. You could also sit to look out the window rather than back into the room, much as I am sure you relish the thought of enjoying the sight of all your hard work.

Finally, do please find a space inside a cabinet where you can tuck in a small microwave oven which will not be seen when the door is shut. I appreciate you are having a vintage kitchen but with a family I think it would be very useful, they might not share your enthusiasm and appreciation for everything vintage once they have to use it.

I hope this helps, that you for sharing this project with us - I also loved the little scale cabinets you showed us, I would have loved something like that when I was a child, I would still in my 60s!

Good luck

Al

 

[sarahperdue]

Arrangements...

John, Matt, everyone,

I'd be lost without you guys...

My appliance problem is all Kelly's fault. That first model 12 Mixmaster was a gateway drug to Coffeemasters, toasters, roaster ovens and eventually steel cabinets. And you people, it's entirely your fault that I absolutely have to have a 30" laundry appliance in a kitchen the size of a postage stamp. And I love you all. I wish Kelly was here to help sort this out. He'd be having so much fun.

Ok, John, your reasons for keeping the combo on the outside wall and not having the ovens and dishwasher in the path are really, really good ones... I'm definitely going to give it a good think, but in all other aspects, this is the best plan so far. And, yes, it's 33" inches with the dishwasher and oven doors closed.

I have a 28" Geneva cabinet that is designed to house the ovens. I like the cabinet, and it does give me some space flexibility if I need to change the ovens out. On the plus side, the French doors and small lower oven on the Frigidaire will be a smaller intrusion on the path than a P7 or other standard double oven.

So, how tall is the door on a Hobart KDS Superba? Hopefully not as tall as the Bosh I have in the Tuscaloosa house.

Now, John, this is really scary: "you can change out the FD when it becomes unserviceable" When?? How fragile is this beast?

Regarding the combo in the peninsula-- Is it possible to add some sound dampening insulation or coating to it while you are working on it?

Hook ups and plumbing aren't big issues because the subfloor is coming up because there is rot and termite damage that needs to be addressed. We will be doing all of the kitchen plumbing at that time and installing a PEX manifold so that the house plumbing can be turned on and off by zone/location should a problem arise.

And, yep, I get just how small 33" is. Thursday, I went down and dragged the cabinets into position to get an idea of space. I'll be lucky to have room for a card table and four chairs in the middle of the kitchen. While small, the 33" passage seems simply palatial compared to the original 2' door between the peninsula and the Americana.

Sarah

 

[spacepig]

I can't help much with configuration, but my vote is for red countertops. We went with something different for the main house, but we will be putting in red countertops in the caretaker's cottage. Cabinets will be white, fridge is a white (but now off white due to age) GE combination, and the stove is a turquoise GE Americana.

Can't wait to see your kitchen when it's finished. It's going to be fabulous!

 

[sarahperdue]

Brilliant!

Thank you, Al,

The back wall is the one place I didn't think about putting the wall fridge. I like it.

The combo really can't go to the left of the ovens because that window extends below counter height. So, what do you think about having it on the south wall between the cooktop and the corner? That gets it out of the peninsula and against an outside wall. We're using rock wool insulation which should help dampen the sound. Really, I should let go of the combo, but I just don't want to...

It isn't on the drawing yet, but I'm hoping an 18" wall cabinet + curved glass shelves will fit between the window and ovens. I've drawn in the curved shelves on the right side of the sink.

Maybe I should post a poll-- combo yes or no?

Alas, the spot for the loveseat is now occupied by the Americana. It was a casualty of the great mis-measuring fiasco that forever banished the wall fridge from the space between the windows. So, now, I think the best I can hope for is a comfy chair by the window.

This rearrangement swaps the 30" combo in the peninsula for a 24" cabinet and increases the path from 33" to 39." I think that's a good thing.

Regarding microwaves--we haven't had one since our last one died about 15 years ago. Since then, I've upgraded our everyday dinner ware to Corning Centura, so a microwave might be downright dangerous. You have reminded me that I need a spot for the Toast-R-Oven. I have a Corningware Electromatic skillet. It, despite the misleading name, is a thermostatically controlled hotplate. I do a lot of cooking in Corningware, and I have Farberware with the aluminum clad bottom, so induction isn't a great fit for my cookware.

I like the idea of bringing back the bar sink, but I'm too tired to figure out where to put it now.

So, here's the latest drawing--not in color this time. I'm off to bed.

Tremendous thanks for all of your help.
Sarah

 

[mattl]

I think this latest iteration works quite well.  Feels like a lot of counter space and a good flow.  The glass cabinet sounds great, hope it fits..

 

[sarahperdue]

Glass cabinet...

Would actually be a standard metal cabinet with curved glass shelves on the window side.

Let me see if I can find a picture... here are two.

I'm also curious about suspended glass shelves. I'm planning to use a short 18" upper cabinet above the peninsula and think it would be awesome to have a glass shelf underneath for wine glasses and such. It also occurs to me as I type that it might be a good idea to reverse the 24" cabinet in the peninsula or the short upper so that is opens to the Americana side since I'm thinking the drinks will be in the Americana outside of the main kitchen flow.

Sarah

 

[bradfordwhite]

ambitious project

 

I feel silly offering this because I don't know all of what you're dealing with on that house.

 

I'm seeing a traffic flow that cuts through the working area of the kitchen.  Also, two corners which are typically wasted space because it's difficult to access those deep corners.

 

If it were me, I'd simplify by putting all or most of the cabinets in a row on one wall.  This gets rid of wasted corners and countertop miters.  It also eliminates passing traffic in the kitchen from getting in the way of the cook.  The GE wall frig would practically be an accent right in the middle of the end wall with 12" storage cabinets below and a rounded decorative floor to ceiling cabinet on the end, possibly on both sides if space allows.  This would also allow space for a table in the kitchen, or a couch, or other appliances.

 

OR 

 

create a "U shaped kitchen.  This will still eliminate the traffic flow from interfering with the cook and the corner cabinet would be usable from the other side.  You could also gain a sit at counter with knee space for stools at the peninsula.  

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[mattl]

Got ya on the glass shelves.  Those could easily be made up at a glass shop.  I was picturing a cabinet with a curved glass door, duh...

 

[sarahperdue]

No silly ideas

Hi Keith,

Thank you for putting so much thought into your suggestions and drawing them. Alas, I don’t have room for either. With the straight line design, I’d have to sacrifice the window to the left of the cooktop. I love the U shaped design but there are only 36” between the windows over the sink and the 3rd window—not enough room for my ovens and the peninsula. The kitchen is really very small. My grandmother had her fridge on the back wall, so it is a familiar work flow and a pretty tight work triangle.

On the bright side, the corners that appear to be wasted are actually Geneva’s version of lazy susans. They called it “Merry-Go-Round,” and it’s pretty neat. The cabinet doors rotate with the round shelves. I think they are easier to access than the modern ones with the fold out doors.

Again, thanks so much for your ideas. I have had a fantasy about living in a tiny house, but the challenges of getting everything I want in this space has been a reality check!

Sarah

 

[sarahperdue]

New Drawings

I messed about with a few more arrangements including extending the peninsula from the wall with the sink. I think I’m sticking with the last lay out. I’ve been using Adobe Sketch with my iPad and Apple Pencil. It’s a lot of fun. Here are a couple of drawings.

Sarah

 

[sarahperdue]

More

Drawings.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

All those drawings look like this kitchen will be well-engineered, Sarah, keep us posted as you go...

-- Dave

 

[mixrman]

Sarah- Looks great to me! I think the white cabinet color scheme will be the most pleasing!

 

[mattl]

Got to agree, looks great!

 

[vacbear58]

Updates

Sarah

I really must applaud your effort and commitment to this project, it is shaping up really well. I am really pleased to have been of some help in getting to the best solution for you.

I know I suggested putting an appliance in front of the window but from your drawings I can see why you would not want to do so. I don't know the height of the window from the floor but is there enough height to perhaps build a window seat under it? Apart from having somewhere to sit, and it could provide extra storage too and, with a small, fold-up table (stored elsewhere when not in use), it could also be a spot to work with your laptop or even a for a light meal for one or two persons - just an idea.

Don't forget, when attending to the insulation of the walls, to ensure that there are sufficient wall studs and cross members in the correct position to support the weight of the wall fridge as it will have to be screwed into these. It would be simple to do it at the same time as the insulation.

I can see how the wall cupboard over your peninsula is completely appropriate to the age of the kitchen but I would re-consider having it as it would obscure the vista over to the window (to left of oven) which I think, from your drawings could be very attractive, it may make the kitchen look less spacious and could lead to a sort of tunnel effect in front of the Americana.

If you have room, the cupboard to the right of the Oven sounds great as do the shelves - with one proviso - will they go right up to the kitchen window over the sink? or will there still be a little bit of room in either side. I mention this because, if you plan to have curtains at the window will there be enough space to pull them back over the wall so that as much as possible of the window as possible is clear when they are pulled back? This also helps give an illusion of the room looking wider. Finally, if used for display, their proximity to the sink (and steamy water) may mean that they, plus whatever is on them, will need frequent washing.

I am sorry, but it is time for a reality check on one item.

I referred to taking the combo out of the peninsula so as to avoid "fixing" the design (and more correctly the finished kitchen) on it. My suggestion (which i see from your drawings is not appropriate) of putting it in front of the window was so that when it goes wrong, as it almost certainly will, it could be easily replaced, even with a top loader. Well this holds equally good if it is to the left of the cook top. Of all the kitchen appliances I would say the washer is most complex - mostly because it has to cope with heavy, water saturated items as it goes into its spin. Add to this that it must be getting on for 60 years old, if not older, and it was not even a mainstream product when it was new! So parts are going to be even harder to find than say for a Maytag or Kenmore top loader

Had your layout accommodated a top loader I could have seen past it as there are still many around which would have looked fine, even if they were a bit younger. Do you even know if it works? You may be several hundred dollars into parts and labour if not, if you can even get the parts. Not to mention what hauling it in and out would do to your lovely floor.

I know you love it, but frankly you would be crazy to incorporate it within any of the runs of cabinets for if it goes wrong and cannot be fixed you will be stuck with a hole that you might not be able to fill easily. So, I would leave it out of your kitchen scheme entirely and replace it with a cabinet which will give you more useful storage by the cook top too.

Is there anywhere where you could build a large closet (longish and deep enough to accommodate a washer and dryer and possibly awkward things like ironing boards, upright vacuums, mops & brooms) or even take a corner to make a separate laundry room - it could even be vintage too, it sounds like you have enough cabinets - which might be laid out so that if the combo reaches a point it cannot be repaired it can be replaced without having to pull the whole thing apart. Frankly, if this is your only laundry appliance, then I would invest in new ones which will likely last a great deal longer and can be repaired if necessary.

I am sorry to close on such a negative note but I really feel it has to be done. You are spending a lot of time, effort and money on a kitchen that will look absolutely wonderful and, at the rate you are going, breathtaking. I am really looking forward to seeing this project progress to, what i am sure will be, a magnificent conclusion.

Best wishes

Al

 

[sarahperdue]

Window seat!

Al, that's brilliant!

I've 18" high, 54" long and 15" deep that can easily become 18." I love the idea, and I've always wanted a window seat. I had one once, in a house we lived in for about a year and loved it.

Thank you very much for the advice about the curved glass shelves. You are absolutely right. I haven't thought about curtains, but I have considered a valance. I will probably also have roller shades on the windows.

Regarding the combo. Yes, I already know that it is utter madness! I've been trying to talk some sense into myself for months. If I don't succeed, the good news is that it's 30" wide and can be replaced by a standard cabinet. It was designed as an under counter component of the GE Wonder Kitchen. The better news is that, if I cannot talk myself out of it, I'm getting the combo from John L. (combo52). I know it will be in excellent working condition. It won't be my primary washer. I have a stacked unit that will be in a bathroom nook with the hot water heater. There's also a broom closet in that bath. Not incredibly practical but it worked for my grandmother for almost 70 years.

So, it's nuts that I am thinking of giving up 30" of kitchen cabinet space for a machine I may not use regularly. The thing is, I like it. I like it a lot. That's also why I'm going to have two refrigerators. I like both of them. I like them a lot. I belong to this group because y'all get it.

Regarding the cabinets over the peninsula, it doesn't show in the drawing, but my plan has been to use 18" short upper cabinets over the peninsula with a glass shelf underneath for drink ware. Now that you've drawn my attention to it, I see how closed in it looks. I'm definitely going to ditch the curved shelves at the end of the upper cabinet. I will think about the rest. If I don't use the short cabinets and a glass shelf, I will probably put several glass shelves. I need for drink ware to be accessible from the Americana.

And no worries about the structure being able to support the fridge. The house is constructed with some serious wood. We're also going to be putting a jack under the sill of that wall to compensate from some termite damage. My master carpenter is amazing, and we are good friends.

I'm considering one more change. If there is room between the top of the sink and the bottom of the windowsill, I am considering putting the cabinettes there so that I will have more "landing space" under the wall fridge.

Did I mention that I know I'm barking mad to be so attached to the combo? No apologies for the negative note. I appreciate every comment and idea.

Al, thank you again for giving me such practical and thoughtful advice for my kitchen, and doing your best to guide me to a rational choice regarding the combo. You've given it your best shot, and I appreciate it.
Sarah

 

[combo52]

Plans Are looking Good

30" Wide kitchen Combo.

 

Yes it might be a little crazy and I don't use the one I installed in our kitchen 30+ years ago but I have never regretted having it there or even considered removing it.

 

I use it every month or so, sometimes as an extra dryer or just to wash all the kitchen rugs or to wash & dry the bed sheets if I am too lazy to go to the basement, when I finish the outdoor kitchen on the screened porch next spring there will be three laundry areas in this house which seems very sensible to me.

 

The GE combo that we may use is the last real American built in the early 70s, these GEs were the most reliable of all the US combos and one of the simplest. GE put thousands of these in rental housing in the 60s and they head up to all kinds of abuse and still lasted 10-20 of regular use.

 

If this combo becomes unserviceable some day it could easily be replaced by a 30" electric wall oven or a rare GE Empress 30" tool out DW or even one of the 24" European combos.

 

John L.

 

[sarahperdue]

Thank you, John!

I'm delighted to have some positive reenforcement for my plan! I had almost talked myself out of it, then I was using a lot of towels while cooking chicken the other night. I hate putting those towels in the kitchen laundry basked even for fa little while. I love the idea of being able to toss them right into the washer.

Yours looks fantastic as does your kitchen.

Can you send a picture of the one you'll be fixing up for me?

Later this afternoon, I'm going to be working on casting a replacement shelf for the all fridge. I'll let you all know how it works out.

Getting more and more excited about the project!
Sarah