Here We Go Again Folks! Miele Needs New Brushes

[foraloysius]

Well, perhaps they aren't lying, but simply don't know what they are talking about. That appliance store might have sold old stock. That may be the reason they are selling for the lowest price.

In Europe the W10xx series were never sold, but is almost similar to the W700 series (above W751 and higher). These series were manufactured from 1983 - 1987

In 1987 a newer series was introduced with W6xx and W7xx models (W709-W733). Later some more models were introduced including the new Novotronic models.

In 1992 even a newer series was introduced. Miele introduced a basic line W8xx and a more deluxe line W9xx.

It is simply unthinkable that Miele in 1994 would still have a production line where they still would manufacture a line of machines for the American market that they didn't make anymore for the rest of the world since 1987 and that was more expensive to make than the newer models.

 

[bertrum]

interesting picture

Hi Launderess,
Never seen that cast iron miele motor, worked on loads of miele washers, is it from a very old machine with a induction motor?

 

[launderess]

"selling for the lowest price"

One thousand and five hundred and twenty something United States dollars was allot of money for washing machine in 1991 and 1992. Adusted for inflation it comes to 2484.75 in 2011 money.

By contractual agreement Miele dealers then and now are not permitted to differ from the MSRP MieleUSA sets without permission. If they do and Miele finds out about it the offending dealer can be removed from the program period.

The information given about various models is brought up upon request via computer. Each time one has spoken to MieleUSA's technical service, parts and or other areas including the litany of servicemen who have come to our home have all given the same production/offered for sale in the United States dates. If none of them know what they are talking about it is a remarkably well planned and executed conspiracy.

Miele never sent anything after the 10XX series to the USA market, but went straight to the 19XX series, again as stated above introduced to replace the 1070/1065 around 1994. This could explain the long (to you) sales run here as there was nothing else on offer.

If the concept of Miele continuing to sell and or produce the 10XX series when it's cousins long ceased production in Europe rattles your tea cup, then hang on; all Miele washers sold before the 19XX series were dual voltage. The W1070, W1065 and IIRC the W770 and W765 all could be run on either 120v or 220v power depending upon how the power cord was connected.

 

[launderess]

@bertrum

Those cast iron behemoths are AC single phase motors. Miele switched to the more commonly seen smaller grey and sliver models starting with the 19XX series.

If one understands correctly the thing is actually two motors in one housing. One part handles the spin the other for tumbling. Though don't quote me on that bit.

Strange thing is using the price quoted above for a new Miele W1070 in 1991, Miele USA was selling new motors for these machines for $1600 USD in 2012.

 

[qsd-dan]

That motor looks completely serviceable to me. Pluck it out and take it to your local electric motor repair shop. They should be able to fix it at a small fraction of the $1600 price.

 

[launderess]

Thanks For The Tip

Am already on the prowl for a used motor to have "serviced" if need be to have on hand as a back-up. Can find lots of similar motors in Europe but this motor was designed for the United States 120v/220v common connection for Miele washers, that is until they switched totally over to 120v.

In such instances certain parts run on one current and others the other. In the case of the motor for the 1065 and 1070 it appears the motor ran off 120v, so the 220v units in Europe don't do me any good.

Again may just be making up the whole thing in my mind. Repairman may come out and say the "noise" is a figment of my imagination and to leave well enough alone. *LOL*

Soon as one can figure out how and where it could go, am leaning towards getting either a Miele 4842 or Speend Queen washer for the larger capacity anyway. So that should take some of the work off the smaller unit.

 

[Iowegian]

@launderess:

One option would be to dig around and find a machine that you can harvest a servicable motor from. I do that for old Chevy and Ford parts - might be a whole different story trying to find a Miele junkyard in the U.S., though.

Another option might be to find a motor shop that could do a rebuild. The work would probably just be disassembly, cleaning, replacing the bearings and brushes, and reassembly/testing, but sourcing the parts might be difficult. That said, you might be able to find a source in Germany for the parts. I would think it unlikely that Miele made/makes their own motors - but even if they did make their own motors, they probably used an off-the-shelf bearing and brush. You'd need the skills to R&R the motor in this scenario, though - which isn't rocket surgery. Hand tools and common sense could get the R&R done.

I guess it depends on how badly you want to keep the old machine working and what financial sense it makes. I just rebuilt the generator (for the 2nd time) on my better half's 1962 T-Bird. It needs an alternator conversion, but she doesn't want anything changed from original - as if she would know the difference...and it wouldn't take away from the sport tonneau kit, or the swivel seat or the swing-away steering column. But when she turns the key and nothing happens, I sure hear about it!

I need to send her off for a girls' weekend and put a modern charging and ignition system on it - it still has breaker points/condensor ignition. And setting the dwell angle on old Fords is a trial-and-error PITA. At least GM put a little window in their distributors so you can adjust the dwell angle with an allen key with the engine running. All of which would become moot with an electronic ignition...hmmm

 

[launderess]

Thanks

Yes, Miele makes it's own motors or at least did for this model so it is either them or nothing. There are tons of similar motors all over Germany/Europe hanging around spare, only problem is they are 230v/50hz not 120/230/60hz for American electic grid.

Am just going to sit tight until the Miele tech takes a peep next week. Used the machine again yesterday and there most certainly is some sort of noise coming from the motor area and one should find out if is one's ears playing tricks or something more sinister.

Appartently others out there love their older Miele washers as well. According to a conversation one had with Miele parts the remaining motors for this series went to customers whom shipped their units to New Jersey for motor replacement and back. At just $1600 alone for the motor one assumes after labour and shipping total costs ran nearly $3K or close.

Miele has a policy of not using "open box" parts for repairs done by them. That is if a boxed part has been opened they won't install it. Therefore it can be assumed the same applies to swapping out motors.

 

[Iowegian]

That's why I like my Skilsaw 77. For 30 years and counting.

Brushes go bad? - go to the local dealer. Problem solved for $1.99 plus tax. The only tool needed to change the brushes is a nickel or a quarter.

Framing something 10 feet in the air, and have to decide to drop your saw so you don't fall off a truss? Go to the local dealer. But you don't need parts to fix what happened when your Skilsaw dropped. It's what happened when you picked it up by the cord. And the replacement cords are cheap.

I dig a lot of the Bosch power tools - German designed, Chinese made nowadays. Why Bosch discontinued their barrel-grip jigsaws, I'll never know, but their drills, impact drivers and sanders make up for it. But Bosch circular saws are to put it kindly, worthless.

No one has has ever come up with as good a general purpose circular saw as the Skil 77. And Makita tried really hard...

 

[tolivac]

Not related to Meile washers---but so cool another skil 77 fan.Repaired a LOT of those at the tool place-most repairs--replacing brushes-5 min job.Worst repair-a workman dropped his 77 saw from 3 stories.the blade and guard bent to beyond hope-but----the motor ran just fine!!!Fixed it up-replaced the bent parts and blade-the owner was so pleased-the machine was precious to him.Workman can get a real realation with their tools-just like the hunter with his favorite rifle and hunting knife.I have 3 skil 77 series machines in my collection-7",8" and a very old 10" one-that beast is almost like a chainsaw!and the tool repair place I worked in had the Prazi chain saw attachments for the 77's.the 77 could make a really GOOD electric chainsaw-their motors had tremendous torque.Equip a 77 with the right blade-it will cut anything.
Yes remember the Bosch tools before the Skil-Emerson group took them over-their jigsaws were a fine peice of machinery-like a swiss watch-they were based on the early Scintilla Swiss made barrel grip jigsaws-worked on one-a fine little machine!And it could cut very nicely-and quietly.that machine at the time I worked on it was 40yrs old!Also remember the Makita "Hypoid" saw not as good as the Skil.Dewalt tried,too-have one of their machines in my tool collection.I only saw them once--Bosch did make a machine under their name-but was very much like the Skil 77.
the tool was at Lowes.

 

[gizmo]

Hi again Launderess

Is the photo above (post 6333087) definitely the same as yours?
Because that is pretty clearly a repairable motor. The pulley removes by undoing the phillips screw in the centre, then the pulley comes off. The bearings WILL be easily replaceable.
You will not need genuine Miele bearings, they probably wouldn't sell them to you any way. But SKF brand bearings will be of excellent quality and might even be the original supplier. I always use SKF bearings when I do up washing machines, never had to re-do one yet.

See what your Miele tech says, as to whether anything needs to be done at all or whether it can continue as is.
But rest assured, if/when that motor needs new brushes and bearings, any competent motor repair workshop (usually someone who repairs power tools and all types of electric motors, not a specialist washing machine repairer) could fix it easily and at very reasonable cost.

For about 25 years now I have made a "specialty" (as a hobby, not a business) of repairing washing machines that had been been declared not worth fixing by the official agents. it is amazing what trivial faults get machines junked. (I had two Askos thrown out by the official warranty agent as unrepairable, they only had some soap gunk blocking a rubber pressure switch hose, but they had been unable to find the fault so the machines, not far off new at the time, were junked.) Your machine would be a prime candidate and I'd do it for you, but you are on the wrong side of the planet for that to work.

You have a real quality machine there, it would be a shame to junk it if it is in need of a simple cheap repair. Just because Miele don't want to do the job doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Any way I don't want to harass you about this, just to help you see that you do have options.

 

[launderess]

Miele North America

Is maddening to deal with on so many levels because of problems that come from nearly every bit of stock having to be imported from Germany. Then there is the rather proprietary nature of their sales and service.

Most any other place in the world yes you are correct, one could walk into a shop and purchase Miele spares off the shelf and be done. Here whilst Miele will sell parts to customers they may or may not let one have what one wants. For instance when asking questions about NOS for the aforementioned motor was told that even if one had wished to order one several years ago "just in case", the order may not have been taken. MieleUSA would generally want to know "why" one is ordering a part that has one of their techs advised the purchase or what.

In theory the motor could be repaired (if required), but Miele USA does not rebuild nor even use such parts. If it's not NOS fergetit.If one does the work DIY then you are responsible for all and any consequences. That is understandable but say the *rebuilt* part somehow affects or damages other parts that previously were working fine. Again one is out of luck.

Say there were parts either in Mexico or Canada for this unit, again you are out of luck in the USA as neither division will sell/ship to the United States. If one does manage somehow to get the parts Miele USA does not give any warranty to such things. Now considering everything came from the same place in Germany to begin with it truly boggles one's mind as to what is the problem.

Will also agree there are European washing machines equal or better built than Miele (V-Zug comes to mind), but they aren't offered in North America. Even if they were our backwards electrical grid (mainly 120v/60hz domestic service) means the units won't work. Even when supplied with 208v-240v service the frequency difference may affect how the machine works and or cause damage.

Finally the other problem one is finding with MieleUSA lately is often customer service isn't what it once was. In an effort to expand their customer base in the USA Miele has opened up call centers and or hired "mobile" workers across the USA. Many of these new employees have no to limited knowledge of older units and quite frankly seem to care less.

 

[vsc]

"Finally the other problem one is finding with MieleUSA lately is often customer service isn't what it once was. In an effort to expand their customer base in the USA Miele has opened up call centers and or hired "mobile" workers across the USA. Many of these new employees have no to limited knowledge of older units and quite frankly seem to care less."

Sigh. When I was investigating SQ vs Miele I got this same sense talking to Miele on a pre-sales basis. Yes pre-sale.

 

[Iowegian]

@tolivac:

As far as I'm concerned, circular saw design hit it's peak when Skil introduced the 77. Nothing more is needed, just like the dinner forks we use that were introduced in the 4th century.

I'm left-handed, and having the blade on the left is a real benefit to me. But that's not a problem for the right-handed carpenters that use them every day - and represent 90% of the population. Interestingly, forks are not handed.

 

[Iowegian]

@launderess:

A machine is only as good as its support organization.

My sense is that when Miele discontinued the large capacity machines in the U.S. (that were actually made in Eastern Europe), it might have caused them to reconsider their commitment to the U.S. market.

Not many Americans are willing to pay up front for a high quality machine any more.

 

[launderess]

From What One Understands

Miele ceased production of the 48XX series for a number of reasons paramount being they were losing money on each sale.

Large sized units aren't hugely popular in Germany and elsewhere within the EU so that left the North American market. Then there are all the associated problems of building washers and dryers adapted to the "odd" North American power grid (120v/60hz), all of which add costs.

The USD has been rather strong against the Euro for awhile now which also probably didn't help matters either.

Am also going to assume Miele didn't sell nearly as many units as hoped of the 48XX series to offset the costs.

Regarding Miele's committment to the North American market one feels safe in saying they are here to stay. How far Miele will go beyond a niche luxury brand is another matter. Unike Bosch and other EU appliance and even car makers Miele still refuses to build a North American plant. This means everything must be imported from Germany with all the added costs that entails. Then there will be the exchange rate to factor in as well.

 

[tolivac]

lowegian:
checked at Lowes yesterday-they no longer have the Skill 77's or the Bosch equivelant-SACRILIGE!!What is wrong with them-they used to always have 77's in stock.Yes,agree on the design of the Skill 77-essentually the perfect sawing machine.The blade is run at the perfect speed for wood,or metal cutting.And I can use my 77 or equivelant with either hand.--Like a fork.It seems now that folks want the "sidewinder" style circular saws-they don't know what they are missing by not trying a 77.the sidewinder style machines spin the blade too fast-causing burning and shorter blade life-and the tool can't be used for cutting other materials.-and on some--the plastic blade guards prevent you from using abrasive metal cuting blades or toothed ones for that matter-the hot metal chips or filings melt or burn the guards.Oh-latest addition to my tool collection--a Dualsaw that is styled exactly like a 77.Haven't tried it yet-came from Sportsmans Guide catalog.The twin couterrotating blades will cut anything.Have other similar machines-they do work.Like the 77 better for woodcutting.

 

[launderess]

Well This Is A Fine Kettle Of Fish

Miele tech shows up today and after some peeping around the inside of one's machine determines the brushes are on the "front" of the motor. To laymen such as Moi, that means they are facing the back of the washing machine which contrary to other information they cannot be replaced without removing the entire motor from the machine. Apparently due to the complexity of that task and given the age of the washer (worries over "brittle" wiring, etc...) the job was not done.

Miele tech stated that depending upon how much wash one does in the machine the current >15 year old brushes should be fine for sometime. If they do grind down and fail will light that fire cracker when it arrives.

As for the noise which started the whole complaint, was told it is a normal "winding" sound and common to Miele motors. Tech didn't think changing the brushes was the cause nor would solve it. So there you are...

Not sure what happens next. Tech stated would speak to his superiors and one supposes will have to wait for the results of that conversation.

 

[hoover1100]

Laundress

I'm pretty shocked at the fact any repairman, let alone a Miele technician, would create such a fuss over changing a set of brushes! It's probably one of the most common reasons for requiring service on a machine like this and can be done in literally a matter of minutes! After all it isn't even a fault, the brushes have to wear down for the motor to function, so sooner or later they are always going to need replacing (like the bag in your vacuum), so given the machines age it's no surprise that they are almost worn out. As for concerns over brittle wiring, I'm sure there are many people here who have worked on far older and poorer condition machines where this has not been an issue!

The idea of buying a Miele is to buy a machine that will keep working for decades, and for the most part they do, providing adequate service is available if/when they do eventually require service.

Is this really what it's like to get an appliance fixed out of warranty in the USA now? If so it's no wonder so many are junked over such simple faults as brushes, bearing failures or faulty drain pumps!

Matt

 

[launderess]

Am Not That Shocked Nor Surprised

While the tech who set up the service call made swapping out the brushes sound like a "simple" affair, knew from previous experiences that young techs in the field today do not always like working on "older" machines.

At first the man couldn't find the brushes and thought the unit didn't have them. Then we went around the block because there isn't any sort of "opening" where one simply pops out and changes the brushes. Finally it dawned on him that the brushes were on the front of the motor, something one already knew.

Have seen pictures of the motor on our machine (see above) thus depending upon which way the unit is orientated, yes the brushes are on the front. Sadly Miele designed much of their older machines to be serviced from the front which means the back of the case does not come off. What cannot be serviced from the front,top or even underneath probably requires taking out the drum and so forth.

To be fair have seen vids of brushes being changed on Youtube and at least there the motors were removed. Also probably put the fear of God in the man when he muttered what would happen if the motor "failed" after being removed and reinserted and or there was othoer damage (one presumes to the "brittle" wiring, etc...), simply and kindly replied that that case would have both him and Miele, and one of them would be responsible for returning the machine to a working state. No pressure there! *LOL*

 

[brisnat81]

I dont know why he couldnt lay it on its side.

Loosen the motor retaining bolt.
Take the belt off
Undo the two screws holding the plastic cover on the front of the motor
Slide the brush holders off
Remove Spring and Brush and tension clip
Insert Tension clip
Insert Brush and spring
Attach Brush holder
Replace plastic cover
Replace belt
Tension belt and Secure motor mounting bracket.

My W423 has the removable back service panel, but its easier to do the brushes from underneath.

Its a 15 minute job at worst

 

[launderess]

It Really Is Disheartening

Here one is trying to be proactive and keep the machine in good nick, and one is thwarted at every turn almost by Miele. Am dying to hear what exactly they are going to say in way of an explination for the refusal to do this job. This after tech/customer support on the telephone swore up and down changing the brushes and or indeed swapping out the entire motor was a job that could be done in home.

 

[mikeklondon]

Lay it on its side

I don't know how thing work in the US but in the UK Heather and Safety regulation stops a tec lifting or bending to move the machine. They wheel in a lift its a bit like a small fork lift truck that go's under the machine pulls it out and lifts to a safe working height for the tec. may be the lift only go's up or down and can't turn it over for him

 

[hoover1100]

Health and Safety regulation

Last time I saw a tech change a set of brushes he tilted the machine against the wall so that it was propped up standing at an angle!

I would suspect a Miele would be just a little bit too heavy to do that though

 

[launderess]

Good Morning All

Miele USA's problem is they are a niche brand here in the USA.

When one informed the Miele tech that there were "young adults" and or hobbists that could change tub/motor bearings and otherwise service older Miele and other EU made washing machines he looked at one as if one had two heads.

Miele USA just does not have the breath and scope of field repairmen that one can find in EU that knows their way around older units.

Am willing to bet a majority of older Miele washers scrapped because of "motor failure" merely required having their brushes changed. But depending upon the unit those older washers are a bear to change brushes on in house. Better to tell Madame her motor won't work anymore (which it won't without new brushes) and that she should by a new Miele instead.

As for turning the unit on it's side:

Suggested to repair tech that mayhaps it would be eaiser for him if the unit was on it's back,sideways or what not, but he wasn't having any of it.

 

[bellalaundry]

I had the brushes

replaced last year on my W1918. The tech used a bent dental mirror, through the front to do the job. Perhaps a 20 min job...chatting with me the whole time.

I thought that this was very clever, and went out later that week to buy one of those mirrors myself. With all the tinkering I do, I knew it come in handy!

 

[bellalaundry]

I had the brushes

replaced last year on my W1918. The tech used a bent dental mirror, through the front to do the job. Perhaps a 20 min job...chatting with me the whole time.

I thought that this was very clever, and went out later that week to buy one of those mirrors myself. With all the tinkering I do, I knew it come in handy!

 

[launderess]

Here Is What The Man Was Up Against

This Miele w770 is IIRC a close cousin of my w1070, thus the guts are pretty similar. Once the machine is opened you can see the mass of wires in relation to the motor which provoked such concern from our Miele repairman.

As the video progresses you can also see how easy it is to get access to the motor if the machine is laid on it's side. This allows work to be done from the bottom of the machine.

Anywho will have to summon Miele back. It seems whatever poking around inside the unit was done has caused something to come lose and or is rubbing against the cabinet or whatever. Empty the drum spins fine, however under load there is a loud and horrible rattle noise. Sounds much like a car's muffler either vibrating or being dragged along the road.

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[vsc]

Youtube video...

There is a youtube video showing the replacement of bearings and such on a W770's motor, where the motor was extracted via placing the machine on its side and removing the motor from the bottom of the machine. I wonder if your machine is similar in construction?

 

[launderess]

I've Been Struck Off!

Miele's top man from the service division contacted us to inform they will no longer provide service for my machine. Apparently the last service technican has relayed information that the internal wiring is "old" and "brittle" and in his opinion cannot withstand anymore movement or prodding for fear of something breaking or otherwise damaged. It is felt that because of liability issues (fear Miele USA would be held responsible) if anything happened to internal wiring/parts and since said are NLA thus repair isn't possible they do not wish to be holding the bag as it were.

Several times during the conversation the words "your machine is 20 years old.." was repeated often. One assumes to make a point that it is time to move on from this unit and consider purchasing a new washer.