How much HE detergent do you use in your front loader?

[passatdoc]

I have a year old Frigidaire 2140---this is the most basic of their "full sized" (3.5 cu ft) FL washers. No automatic temp control, no on board heater, but a steal at $550 (plus there were rebates of $100 from the water district and $35 from the gas co.). It seems to do a nice job of rinsing and cleaning the clothes, and it received good marks from Consumer Reports, for what it's worth. Because this is a new model, which debuted only about two years ago, not much is known about long-term reliability, but one can afford to take more of a gamble at $550 than at $1000.

I use either Kirkland liquid detergent (which is HE-approved), or Tide HE if it's on sale. I find that if I use more than 1/3 cup of detergent, I'll find a few residual suds on the inside of the door and around the gasket seal at the end of the cycle...and I always select "extra rinse" (a few cycles on the machine, like Quick Wash, don't offer extra rinse, but the cycles most people use, like Perm Press, Normal, and Heavy Duty, all offer Extra Rinse).

The results have been excellent with 1/3 cup. More tellingly, last year some European friends visited and used my machine. These people have used only FL machines their entire lives. My friend opened the spigot on the Kirkland bottle, dispensed about 1/3 cup, and but only poured about 1/4 cup into the machine---and she tossed the remained into the sink and rinsed the cup, as if she knew from long experience that 1/3 cup would be too much (or, perhaps she uses a smaller capacity European machine at home...).

What are your FL experiences? Both Tide and Kirland's directions specify 2/3 to 3/4 cup of HE detergent, and that just seems too much, based on the fact that I have a trace of suds using 1/3 cup. Are the manufacturers trying to sell more soap? Or does my machine simply do a poor job of rinsing when most FLs can rinse away 3/4 cup of HE detergent?

Your opinions appreciated.

http://www.universal-akb.com/frfrwaft.html

 

[passatdoc]

ps

I realize that my machine is mid-sized (3.5 cu ft), with most machines sold in USA between 3.1 and 3.8 cu ft capacity. So I the largest machines (e.g. TOL Whirlpool Duet) might use a bit more soap than my smaller machine, but I'm using HALF of what the manufacturers recommend and getting good results.

 

[pumper]

I've had the same machine for about 5 months now. I've used All & Purex HE because I'm cheap and always have suds left at the end of the cycle, filling the cap barely to the bottom line (for light loads). I also choose extra rinse because of this. I think the problem is that the machine is too finicky when balancing to spin. I've seen it going almost perfect but then it will stop and rebalance. Many loads don't spin until the final spin, when it will rebalance till the cows come home, and then even the high speed spin isn't going to get all the suds out. I like front loaders but I think this will be my last one because of the spinning (or lack of).

 

[frigilux]

A lot depends on the softness of your water. I have a water softener in the house, so the water is extremely soft. If I don't use a bit of fabric softener in the final rinse, there's always a bit left in the boot after a fast final spin.

Once, when I had company for a few days and used up all the soft water before a recharge, I did a load of laundry and was very impressed that my HE detergent was completely washed away by the second rinse. But stains weren't removed as well in the hard water. Nor would I want to use hard water in the dishwasher.

Soft water makes rinsing every trace of detergent away difficult.

 

[passatdoc]

Spin

Hmmm...never considered the spin issue. My machines are in the garage, so I usually am not around to see/hear them in action. It seems as if the washer does spin continuously (at lower speed) during each rinse, and then of course it takes off for the final spin. Maybe my machine is balanced differently than yours.

I used All Clear (HE) when I first bought the machine, because I had purchased it by mistake, without ever using it, when I owned a top loader. It seemed to work fine and in fact left virtually no suds.

Did you ever see any specs on the maximum spin speed? I was told at the store it was 1100 rpm, but I never saw any documentation to that effect, either in the owner's manual or on their website.

 

[passatdoc]

water hardness (Frigilux)

I live in SoCal, where the water hardness is legendary, and I don't have a water softener.

 

[launderess]

Detergent manufacturers are in the business of getting you to buy more product, hence overly generous dosage recommendations. Top or front loading washing machine, the dosage use is the same; use only enough product to get clean laundry. Time and experience will teach you the proper amount of detergent based upon soil/stain levels and perhaps water temps.

Commcercial laundry products by the way are rarely suggested to be dosed by "scoop", rather expressed by pound/kilo of laundry per oz/gram of product ratio. That is the laundry owner will tweak proudct dosage to get the results he/she needs. Product is expensive, more so the TOL stuff, so adding more than required is nothing more than pouring money down the drain.

L.

 

[pumper]

spin speed

the guy at lowe's told me 1000 rpm's. pull up a chair and watch a few loads. you may be surprised how much trouble it has balancing hence no spin. it will only attempt twice before it gives up.

 

[spiralator60]

HE Detergent

Hello fellow Southern Californian! Where in the region are you? The hard water here, overall, is something that really does present a challenge for laundry, doesn't it? I've always used a separate water softener for this reason. Right now I'm using the liquid version of Calgon, half a capful per load. In my area, the closest store carrying it is Ralphs.

My main detergents are liquid Cheer HE (for clothes I wear at work), the powder version of Tide with Bleach and/or liquid Tide HE (for most everything else). For the liquids I find that a quarter cup is sufficient, even with the Calgon, and I have not seen suds remaining after the cycle is over. For the powder, I have good results with around a third cup, more or less, depending on the size and soil level of the load, and water temperature. By and large, this seems to be the upper limit, for me, to use without needing to re-rinse items after the cycle has ended.

One thing that I occasionally notice is that there are a few remaining suds present in loads of towels after the final spin, even when reduced amounts of detergent are used. This is something that I can live with, though. One thing that I realized some time ago is that if you pretreat items like shirt collars with detergent, this adds to the amount of detergent that you are actually using overall in that particular load. I have a Maytag Neptune, with a 3.3 cf drum capacity.

 

[passatdoc]

Spiralator

I'm in southern Orange County. Hard Water Capital of the Universe.

Can Calgon go into the automatic dispenser of a TL machine? The dispensers seem to have slots for detergent, fabric softener, and bleach. Can Calgon be placed in the fabric softener slot?

I don't really notice suds on my clothes or towels. Just a trace of dilute suds on the inside of the door or bottom of the gasket. And only if I open the door right away after completion of the cycle....otherwise they presumably collapse/dissolve if I open the door say an hour later, which is often the case when I use the Delay Wash (8 hours) at night, which completes the load shortly before I wake up.

As pumper suggested, I may need to pull up a chair and watch a load in action, particularly during the rinses.

 

[spiralator60]

Calgon

I'm just outside of Torrance, in LA county. I know just what you mean. About half the people on my block have water softening systems installed in their homes.

As for putting Calgon in the fabric softener slot, I would not do this. You would be happier with the final result by adding the Calgon with the detergent - powder with powder, liquid with liquid - dosed at the start of the cycle. The reason that I say this is because the fabric softener is added to the water of the final rinse. If you were to add water softener to a load that was not completely rinsed, lots of foam will result, requiring an additional rinse or two afterward.

Like you, the few suds I noticed are inside the gasket surrounding the door opening, not on the towels themselves.

 

[tumbler]

How much?

In my Duet HT I use Tide HE. I haven't bothered measuring by cup, because I use the measuring cup which comes with the detergent. most of the time I don't fill the measure more than about halfway. Only with extremely dirty work clothes do I fill it all the way (and add grated Fels Naptha and Goop degreaser). I've never had an issue with suds left over. Sometimes I add liquid Calgon to the bleach dispenser (in most machines, this dispenses during the first rinse cycle and helps remove detergent.

 

[panthera]

quantities, balance

Our water here in Munich is very hard, I think Louis once calculated it to be some thing like 175 on the American scale...
where 40 is considered hard.
I always use water softener. The machine puts this in first, lets it work for a bit then adds detergent.
It gets clothes cleaner with half as much detergent than my old machine did.
Give it a try; add water softener, let it run for a minute then add detergent for "soft water".
Balancing, by the way, is key to a fast spin. You don't measure the balance at the top of the machine alone, but on the sides and the front.
I don't think you will ever avoid a tiny amount of foam (small, separate, quickly collapsing islands of thin, small bubbles). After all, these machines work a lot like egg beaters, there are going to be some suds. You might also want to clean the rubber boot at the front of the machine after every load. Just wipe it dry. Europeans are taught to never close the door completely after running the machine, I notice folks in the 'States do it all the time. This is not good - causes mold and detergent and "gunk" to build up.

 

[passatdoc]

subs and boot

Hi panthera,

Pretty much my suds are a small circle of weak foam (gone if I wait more than ten minutes to open the door) about 3 cm in diameter. Sometimes a little foam in the boot seal. So maybe what I am seeing is normal for a front loader, only I lack the experience to know because I owned only top loaders in the past.

I had read several on-line reviews of my machine which warned users to wipe the rubber boot (including the crevice) dry after each laundry day....otherwise, these users were satisfied with their machines. Some of the higher end machines (e.g. Duet) have drain holes at the bottom of the boot crevice (six o'clock position), but the 2140 does not have this "advanced" feature. So there is always a little (2 oz or 60 ml) of rinse water left inside the crevice.

I also leave the door open when the machine is not in use. I was in Köln about a month after I bought the machine, and I noticed that everyone---Miele owners included---leaves the door ajar when not in use. I figured they know what they are doing, so I do the same. (Die Amis sind unfähig, aber die Deutschen wissen, wie der Hase läuft...).

 

[panthera]

and even when we don't

We sure like to tell the rest of the world what to do...
It sounds to me like you have nothing to worry about...but try running half a cup of salt or one cup of white vinegar in the last rinse once. If that reduces the suds significantly, then you are oversudsing (be sure to run another last rinse after the salt or vinegar.)
Oh - fabric softener can foam a bit, could it be that you are using the dose for TLs? I hate the smell, but when you use it in a FL you have to take a very small amount and then dilute it like mad.
Yeah, the old moldy boot problem is compounded by the fact that European rubber and other components are made assuming that they will be regularly cleaned by really hot water washes.
Since many folks now do cold water washing, these parts can get pretty icky.
When I'm in the 'States, I do a real hot water wash with white vinegar once a month in my mom's machine. Seems to solve the problem.
And yes, we do have to make sure the cat is not in the washer or dryer - everytime.
By the way, holes in the boot are by no means tied to TOL or MOL machines, I have seen very good machines without and cheap Hoovers with.
Oh, oh. In trouble again.
(ducks and runs)

 

[oxydolfan1]

das stimmt

 

[toggleswitch]

In my Frigidaire toploader:

I use less than a 1/4 of a cup of REGULAR liquid detergent (about level of horizontal thumb against a detergent cap.)

For powdered detergents I have found 1.5 to 2.0 scoops of a small scoop (As found in OXY.CLEAN) is about right.

Also many Euro or Euro-inspired/made F/L washers (like my Frigidaire) dispense the contents of the BLEACH dispenser in the first rinse. So I put inexpensive, watery (non-waxy) fabric softener in the BLEACH dispenser to kill suds in the 1st rinse. Subsquent rinses are clean and chemical-free using only fresh water.

Here the green scoop is a std. powdered detergent scoop. It contains two fills of the blue (OXY.CLEAN) scoop.

mm/dd/yr

 

[oxydolfan1]

did you mean frigidaire top loader

also

"...dispense the contents of the BLEACH dispenser in the first rinse..."

now why on earth
would this machine go
and do something so ridiculous

or is there a rational explanation

i've never witnessed this first hand

 

[gadgetgary]

Scotty

It is true. Just experienced the Frigidaire FL distribute the 'bleach' in the first rinse. The machine was new yesterday and witnessed it go thru its cycles(See Thread#10613 Frigidaire FTFB4000FS).

Seems the FS is dispensed in the Final rinse with no other rinses to follow.

 

[gadgetgary]

BTW

I think Steve meant Frigidaire Front Loader, not Top Loader

 

[oxydolfan1]

correction

I have amish launderers with maytag wringer machines
wring out of machine, than drop into first bucket
with bleach water
wring out
rinse again in bucket with fresh water
wring out again
final rinse with fabric softener
final wring out

than hang up on line to dry

i am not amish

my fl quandary deepens
but thank you both for the four one one
btw how did this machine go over otherwise

 

[toggleswitch]

Front loader.

Because bleach and detergennt fight each other's mission,
bleach in the USA is properly added in he LAST 5 minutes of the wash phase (in a topp-loader) or say a Maytag Neptune front-loader

When washing with so little water as in a front-loader , it is best to leave the detergent alone to do its work, IMHO.

And as Launderess has stated, for best santizing action, wash first to rid of organic matter THEN add disinfectant/bleach.

Besides the first rinse can also be thought of as a wash. although a tumble-drain and flush takes place there is often no spin between tthe first wash and the first rinse. So it can also bee seen as fresh water and residual detergent to do a second wash......

 

[toggleswitch]

Interestingly a Frigidaire F/L-er adds an optional rinse BEFORE the final rinse, so softener is dispensed in the final rinse. If optional rinde is NOT selected, one of the rinses is extended and the water is not pumped out, nor does the machine refill. Basicaly two rinses combine to form one longer one.

A Matytag Neptune F/L-er adds a 4th optional rinse AFTER the "FINAL" (3rd) rinse, so that fabric softener that flows into the "FINAL" (3rd) rinse is then flushed out with a clean chemical-free 4th rinse.

 

[oxydolfan1]

hmmm, okay
i'm calmer now

i looked at electrolux.com
and they said

"Advanced rinse technology incorporates a fresh water rinse for whiter whites, brighter colors and clothing that feels fresher!"

which would seem to be in agreement
with what you have said

it's just odd to me
to incorporate chlorine bleach into cold water

toggleswitch and gary
based on your observations
does the 2140 use a substantially higher water level
in any or all of the rinses
than it uses in the wash cycle
and do you believe it is enough
to rinse a load of jeans and sweatshirts
or a synthetic twin size comforter....

the way WE know they should be rinsed?

 

[oxydolfan1]

incidentally
the 2140 and 2940
appear to be exclusively for the north american market

who cares
i like 'em anyway

 

[launderess]

There is a saying in commercial laundry circles, "wash cycle is for washing and the bleach cycle for bleaching". That is bleaching with chlorine bleach most always takes place in a separate cycle from the wash.

Rationale behind this is simple: the bleaching action of chlorine bleach takes place in five minutes, with a bit faster action in hot water. Longer contact times do not increase stain removal (nor sanitation for that matter),and can only lead to textile damage. There is also the fact that chlorine bleach affects the enzymes commonly found in detergents.

Yes, as Toggle stated, if one is counting on chlorine bleach for sanitation, then it is best to knock down the germ/soil/muck level before adding bleach. This follows a rule in sanitation that we learned in nursing, clean before disenfecting. If you read the directions of any EPA certified disenfectant you will see instructions to clean/remove gross filth before applying the disenfectant solution.

L.

 

[oxydolfan1]

okay
if the water level is high enough, i can adapt

wonder if bloom and krup would consent to a demonstration

thanks everyone

i'm not sure i'd get through this process without you

 

[launderess]

Chlorine bleach sanitises and removes stains quite well in cold water. It is one of the things LCB users would lord over oxygen bleach in that the former will work in cold, but the later really requires warm,hot or even boiling water to really get going.

L.

 

[oxydolfan1]

interesting point re water temp and lcb, launderess

i wonder why electrolux did not import aeg machines from germany and rebrand under the frigidaire nameplace, as did whirlpool with bauknecht

perhaps the aeg machines would have been costlier

http://www.aeg-electrolux.de/node146.asp?ProdID=10507

 

[~sudsshane]

Toggleswitch

Oh!!!! King Kullen!..I want some of that King Kullen 'Lemon" fabric softener!! =)