Inside anatomy of a Kitchen Aid 23 series dishwasher

[pliney]

Can you tell me what the floating ball in the 2nd picture is for and how it should act if working correctly? I took off the fine filter under the wash arms to see if I could find any issues down there. I tried to take off the plastic gray piece but ended up breaking a piece the screw wasn't so tight and couldn't get it off. Should I try harder? Might I find something down there that might be causing my problem.
I'm having issues with food left on my dishes all over the dishwasher. When I take off the washer arm, there is a good amount of particles left on top of the fine filter.
I purchased a new white check valve piece and installed that but while it might have helped some, I'm still having dirty dishes.
The lower and upper washer arm seems to be working with water coming out. Is there a way to test them under a faucet or hose?
I'd appreciate any suggestions. I'd hate to give up on this dishwasher and really could use some help getting the dishes cleaned for our family of 8!

 

[combo52]

WP-KA Power-Clean Pumps

Hi, Usually you can not remove the wash impeller screw without breaking it off in the motor shaft at which point you replace the whole assembly.

 

Are you sure this DW is getting enough water ?

 

Low water fill is the most common problem that causes poor cleaning performance.

 

John

 

[pliney]

How much water should there be after it fills? It is just covering the fine filter screen under the washer arms.

 

[rp2813]

Doesn't your machine have a float at left front in the bottom of the tank?  That float makes a clicking sound when you push down on it and release.  That's the sound of the switch that shuts off the fill valve.  If water level isn't high enough to activate the float switch, it's not high enough to provide proper cleaning.  The filling sequence is timed, so even if the water level isn't high enough to activate the float switch, the machine will still advance into the wash mode.

 

Have you checked the screen on the inlet valve?  These can get clogged and reduce the flow of water into the machine, particularly if you have old galvanized supply pipes.

 

[DADoES]

 
Fills are timed.  The float does not control the normal fill level, it's for overfill protection ... as would occur if the water doesn't fully drain after a given wash or rinse period, and the next fill would be too much atop the remaining water.

 

[combo52]

Best Way To Determine If A Low Fill Is Affecting Cleaning

Sit Through A full cycle and after each time the machine finishes draining and starts to fill again open the door and pour an additional 1 gallon of hot water in the sump and see if that improves the cleaning.

 

If this makes a positive difference REPLACE your inlet valve, they really never clog, but they do ware out, I would not mess with taking it apart and trying to clean it unless you want to test your homeowners flood insurance.

 

John L.

 

[pliney]

Thank you John for your suggestion. Unfortunately, the dishes still seem to be dirty, even with the extra water.
I could add a gallon of water after the first fill, but this is probably because I start the machine by turning the knob to normal. If I start it at pots and pans, it advances through without doing anything. So for the past 2 years I've been using it, I just turn it to normal and this may not give it the full fill time. Sometimes when I've heard it not fill for very long, I'll turn the knob around again and back to normal so it fills more.
But the other two fills seemed to fill full of water. I added a gallon after the 2nd fill, the water level went quite above heating element. The third fill the water level was just a bit below the heating element so I added a quart.
So the dishes are quite clean, but there are random food particles scattered all over, maybe more so on the tops of the top rack dishes. Also, there is particles collected on the fine filter under the lower washer arm. This isn't normal is it?
How does the filter on this work? It seems like the particles aren't getting filtered out during the course of the wash cycles. What is the path of water as it goes from washer arms to dishes, back down to the bottom and then resprayed. Doesn't it travel through a filter?
I'd love to hear any more suggestions of things I should look into. As I said, it's been a great machine for a couple years and I feel like there should be something I can figure out to do to salvage it.
Thanks also John for letting me know that screw would be nearly impossible to get off of the impeller.

 

[stevet]

Back to the basics...

First: If you press the normal cycle and leave the knob untouched at what would be the beginning of its travel, NOTHING should happen until the timer reaches the point that you would have normally turned it to normal. Then it should fill and continue the cycle normally. If you did the same for rinse and hold, from the very start position, the timer would just click along until it reached the rinse section on the dial and then fill and rinse the dishes. If you are at the start position and press pots and pans, the machine should immediately start filling and then progress thru the whole cycle and go all the way to the end of the dry cycle. Filling, draining and rinsing when it is supposed to do.

Second: You keep saying that there is a lot of stuff on the fine filter. Are you at least scraping off the food from your dishes? Your dishwasher is not a garbage disposer and can only handle so much debris before failing to get rid of it all.
You don't need to wash the dishes first, but I think you know where I am going with this.

Third: Take off the wash arm and look at the small neck area on the top of the fine filter. There is a bushing inside the neck that should not be sticking up and blocking the water from getting into the lower wash arm. This was always a weak design area and failure point. If you don't get water into the lower arm, your dishes will not come clean and the water jets on the under side of that arm will not be able to flush the fine particles down and off the strainer during the drain periods.

I would check that and see if that if the failure point. If you can move the white bushing up and down, then the support will need to be replaced.
It sounds like the machine is filling properly and like you mentioned, even adding water doesn't always result in clean dishes.
Please keep us posted.

 

[pliney]

Thanks so much for the advice John, including how the buttons and knob work, obvious now that you say it. I guess I was just going with what worked the first time and hadn't thought any more about it.
As for my lazy pre-rinsing, I could be more diligent about this, so thank you for the encouragement. But I've probably been behaving the same recently when the problem started as I was the past few years with no problem. What seems to be getting left behind on the top of the fine filter and the dishes is wheat bran (we cook with whole wheat so mixing bowls with dough residue, etc.) tomato seed (in the midst of canning season) and other seemingly light weight things. Is it possible these things are just floating on the water and not going away? Though this wasn't a problem before.
And the white piece you mentioned seems to be quite securely in place. The lower sprayer arm is turning and I can't see any obstructions in any of the holes and can get water to flow through all of it.
I realized the whole thing wasn't very level, so I propped up the front two corners - the screw things on the bottom were rusted. But again, that didn't seem to help.
Thank you so much for your help and patience. I feel like the solution is doable, but I don't know what else to check. Thanks again.

 

[pliney]

Drainage issuse?

I'm starting to suspect I have a drainage or pump issue. The water left in the sump at the end of each cycle is probably more than should be there and it's always still dirty. I took off the newly installed white check valve and all of the water from the sump flowed out without issue. So there doesn't seem to be a blockage anywhere there. And I've washed out the black line (which is smooth, except for a 4 inch section right next to the elbow that connects to the check valve piece). And the check valve seems to be working when I test it with water at the faucet.
Is it possible the pump has gotten less able to pump the water out fully? The black water line goes to a loop in the cabinet beside and the top of the loop is at the height of the dishwasher before heading to the sink. And all of those lines seemed clear.
Thanks SO So much as always.

 

[pliney]

Water back flowing

I was able to see that in fact all of the water was being pumped out but immediately water came back in, about an inch and a half deep. Is this more than normal? I thought this is what the check valve piece was supposed to deal with. I have a high loop on the drain hose. Are there any other parts that keep dirty water from flowing back in? Thanks!

 

[combo52]

Water Back Flowing

Where and how does the drain hose attach to your homes plumbing ?

 

If it goes into the disposer there should not be any water in the disposer to back up as the DW is draining, be sure the disposer is cleared of any food waste before starting the DW, if the kitchen drain is backing up as the DW drains fix that.

 

John

 

[pliney]

Thanks so much. The hose comes out of the check valve in an elbow, then a 4 inch white corrugated section, then smooth black line that runs along the floor about maybe 2 feet (which is longer than needed). It goes through the cabinet a few inches above the floor. Inside the other cabinet it goes up to almost the top of the top of the dishwasher ( tried putting it as high as I could and that didn't make a difference). Then it comes down at an angle to where it goes into the sink drain, about 4 inches below the sink. No garbage disposal. Made sure again all the sink lines were clear, including the u trap. While I moved the DW around to put the check valve in before realizing that it could be put on through the front panel, I think the drain line is pretty much how it was when it was working before this issue.
The water in the sump area pretty nearly fills the sump area.
When I took the filter off before, there was a white floating ball? It didn't seem to be doing anything or fitting right if it was pushed in place. Do those go bad/get worn out? Is this another check thing to keep water from flowing back in? How does one even go about replacing that if needed?
Thanks for walking along with me on this one.

 

[stevet]

Let's get to the bottom of this

Take the hose off of the drain under the sink and run the machine and drain it into a five gallon bucket. If the machine is totally empty after that, you know nothing is wrong with the pump. Some of these drain tees like yours have a severe channel for the water tpo send it straight down the pipe and not splash into the strainer. I have seen them get clogged up or something gets stuck in the inside elbow and block the water flow and cause the same issues you are having. You may want to take it out and inspect it and maybe replace it with a tee that does not have the channel inside of it.

 

[stevet]

check this photo of the most common drain tees out there

This one has a relatively short channel to direct the water down the drain. I have seen others with longer channels. If you can find one in Brass(try a plumbing store), they usually don't have the channel and will allow the water to move faster.

 

[pliney]

Thanks so much Steve. I did try the 5 gallon bucket under the end of the drain and the DW did the same thing, though I think the sink drain does have the piece you are talking about. It's not clogged there.
I think I miss wrote about how much water is coming back in. All of the water is pumped out as you hear the pump churning then when it stops I can open the door and see water come back in that covers the bottom of the sump (the black gasket and the bottom of the sump) with about 1/2 inch water, usually with flecks of food in the water. The other dirty places (besides some on the dishes) are the front left corner of the door top and the upper back two corners. Also the top of the filter under the lower arm has bits on it. So I've been pre-scrubbing dishes, running them through (because it does actually get things "clean" like yogurt stuck to the inside of a narrow mouth quart jar). So I'm hardly adding any food particles that aren't water soluable. Then I'm giving things a wash after because they aren't 100%.
So if you have any other ideas on how to get to the bottom of this, I'd be most grateful. Thanks!

 

[DADoES]

 
Perhaps you could/should provide photos of the typical loaded dishware condition, how much water remains in the sump and the residual particles in there and/or remaining on the dishware after the run is complete.

 

[bigalsf]

Check valve

Hi, I've been reading this thread and based on your observation of the water returning to the sump i'm fairly confident the check valve at the drain outlet is not working properly.  I know you mentioned you replaced it, but if it's working only a small amount of water (1-2 cups) should come back into the sump.  If more than that is coming in the check valve is not working and needs to be replaced again (or checked to see if the ball is stuck).  

 

The only other idea I have is the drain impeller has worn down and cannot pump the water out with enough force to fully empty the machine (but, again, the check valve should be preventing any large quantity of water from coming back into the sump)

 

My advice is to go back and remove/inspect the check valve to make sure it's working properly (the ball can get out of round and not seat properly).  

 

Good luck and keep us posted.  

 

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[pliney]

IT IS WORKING AGAIN!

It's working and I don't know why! I decided I needed to just change it out and deal with fixing it this winter when I had more time. So I installed a modern GE one someone had been giving away for free awhile back I'd had in storage. Hooked it up and it didn't work - kept trying to drain. Urg. But I also was really sad to have to resort to some cheap plastic thing. So I thought, I'll just hook the kitchen aid back up and see if it works.
And it did! 3 very clean batches of dishes so far.
The water is completely pumped out at the end of each cycle and there is no residue on the top of the filter or in the upper corners. Just clean all over. But I feel like it would be good to know why it suddenly fixed. I sorta feel like I'm living on borrowed time with it!
To switch the DWs, I unhooked the water line and the electric line. Maybe something at the water line, like a bit of clogged filter and as someone suggested maybe it really wasn't getting enough water? I have no idea what else it could have been.
So that's the current story. Thanks so much for all of your input and inspiration to keep these old ones going.